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+--- Thread: Why replace the mg with the ARC? (/showthread.php?tid=5210)
RE: Why replace the mg with the ARC? - Smilecythe - 07-02-2016
(07-01-2016, 06:28 PM)end user Wrote: Don't fuck with shotgun randomness.Why the fuck not?
Edit: Every sensible game on the market is doing it: http://i.imgur.com/ptZ0LXU.jpg
RE: Why replace the mg with the ARC? - SPLAT - 07-02-2016
I always found the MG to be quite useful in deathmatch/tdm games. Can't say the same for duels though.
RE: Why replace the mg with the ARC? - Beagle - 07-02-2016
Have to Agree with SPLAT, I've been using MG's for a very long time and it's very deadly and useful.
RE: Why replace the mg with the ARC? - Danfun64 - 07-02-2016
(07-02-2016, 03:22 AM)Smilecythe Wrote:(07-01-2016, 06:28 PM)end user Wrote: Don't fuck with shotgun randomness.Why the fuck not?
Edit: Every sensible game on the market is doing it: http://i.imgur.com/ptZ0LXU.jpg
What game is that? I recognize the one on the bottom right is Quake Live, but I don't recognize that other game...
RE: Why replace the mg with the ARC? - end user - 07-02-2016
(07-02-2016, 03:22 AM)Smilecythe Wrote:(07-01-2016, 06:28 PM)end user Wrote: Don't fuck with shotgun randomness.Why the fuck not?
Edit: Every sensible game on the market is doing it: http://i.imgur.com/ptZ0LXU.jpg
Because randomness is what makes the shogun server so fun and at times equalizes the players skills.
RE: Why replace the mg with the ARC? - aa - 07-02-2016
![[Image: warsow.jpg]](https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/images/10/dec/warsow.jpg)
You forgot to mention Warsaw's crazy spiral spread.
RE: Why replace the mg with the ARC? - Smilecythe - 07-02-2016
And how exactly does making shotgun spread not random (for core balance) stop you keeping it random in your fun mod/server?
(07-02-2016, 11:53 AM)Danfun64 Wrote: What game is that?
Reflex
RE: Why replace the mg with the ARC? - Steak - 07-06-2016
I find the mg useful to finish off someone low on health, rather than wasting time aiming the vortex, which is a long-range weapon. Otherwise it's worthless when stacked.
RE: Why replace the mg with the ARC? - thearcoN - 07-08-2016
The only time I use MG in duels is when I know the opponent is low on health and no armor. (for example when I hit a nex shot on medium/long range). But, I can also just fire a rocket and detonate it in the area of my opponent. So yes, the MG should be replaced with Arc in duels if you ask me.
However, I agreed with SPLAT on TDM mode. The MG tend to work great there due to chaos-fights
RE: Why replace the mg with the ARC? - Halogene - 07-08-2016
(07-08-2016, 02:17 AM)thearcoN Wrote: However, I agreed with SPLAT on TDM mode. The MG tend to work great there due to chaos-fights
I achieve good results with hagar in that respect :o)
RE: Why replace the mg with the ARC? - thearcoN - 07-08-2016
You and your Hagar
RE: Why replace the mg with the ARC? - Halogene - 07-08-2016
Well, having a particularly fuzzy aim helps a lot when using hagar, since it almost never shoots where you aim at.
RE: Why replace the mg with the ARC? - aa - 07-09-2016
Yep. I agree with that.
I think it should also get rounds that split in 3 to add more spam.
RE: Why replace the mg with the ARC? - Islinn - 07-11-2016
(07-08-2016, 12:27 PM)Halogene Wrote: Well, having a particularly fuzzy aim helps a lot when using hagar, since it almost never shoots where you aim at.
Are you actually serious? You need to aim your hagar shots (primary or secondary, doesn't matter) to where your enemy is moving. It's just that easy.
RE: Why replace the mg with the ARC? - PinkRobot - 07-12-2016
I think he might be joking. Not sure.
Anyway hagar sucks and balance is off, let's add more weapons.
RE: Why replace the mg with the ARC? - Halogene - 07-12-2016
Well, it was intended humoristically, but it has a valid point I think. As hagar almost never fires straight to where you aim your crosshair due to high random spread, I'd be in theory more likely to achieve direct hits with hagar because of my fuzzy aim that rarely places the crosshair onto the target.
But of course you have to lead your shots properly and generally shoot to the ground (or wall next to target to deal reasonable damage, so you have to somewhat aim with hagar. But it is a weapon that does not differentiate that much if you have a pinpoint precise accuracy or if you're more or less just generally looking into the direction of your opponent or where you expect him to be. That means, as far as aim is concerned, a player with high accuracy will deal much more damage with vortex than I do with vortex, but I will deal close to same damage with hagar than he does with hagar.
I think. It doesn't really matter anyway, though.
RE: Why replace the mg with the ARC? - Smilecythe - 07-12-2016
Random spread needs to go from all weapons imo; shotgun, hagar, electro (balls).. etc.
RE: Why replace the mg with the ARC? - aa - 07-12-2016
So, now Hagar is going to have perfect accuracy?
RE: Why replace the mg with the ARC? - Halogene - 07-12-2016
That would render it mostly useless for me...
RE: Why replace the mg with the ARC? - mini - 07-18-2016
(07-12-2016, 07:41 AM)Smilecythe Wrote: Random spread needs to go from all weapons imo; shotgun, hagar, electro (balls).. etc.
Why? You posted that opinion a few times but not the reasons you'd prefer that. Higher skill ceiling for these weapons? Less disparity between the "get to real weapon" weapons? Increasing the effective range of all of these weapons? I'm not sure what changes the devs are actively working on but most everything I've seen them comment on look like they'd affect the game less drastically than this.
RE: Why replace the mg with the ARC? - Smilecythe - 07-19-2016
Indeed my bad, I've made my point several times in other threads, but I'll sum it up here as well. It's simple: to eliminate randomness and luck factor from accuracy and in general up the improvisation value for said weapons. Also without spread/randomness, if your shots don't land then you would have nothing but yourself to blame. I'll get to what I mean with improvisation value shortly.
As for Shotgun and MG, no matter how insignificant I simply dislike the notion of randomness and luck in arena shooters. Whether or not the game's meant to be competitive or casual. Each weapon typically has a role that it fills and I don't think randomness should be a role in any weapon even if the theme/portray of that weapon insists that kind of behavior visually. Same exact reason why I dislike Machinegun in Quake 3 and since it's a spawn weapon - why I dislike TDM there as well. Also, even if there's luck elements in Xonotic in other areas (initial spawns for example), it doesn't justify for something else to be luck based as well. This is an argument some people have made previously, so I'll preemptively tackle that as well. Strawman not intended.
If Hagar (primary) spread weren't random, you could use it to lock down areas in long distance (with intended placement of projectiles), you could hit multiple shots to airborne enemies with it more reliably which is currently luck based even in mid/close distance. Those few hagar missiles that hit directly are always luck. At the moment Hagar (primary) is only useful for blasting the floor/walls close to your enemies and even the efficiency to splash/direct hits there is luck based. This limits the improvisation value of that weapon significantly, there being limited ways to use the weapon reliably.
As another example, Electro balls are literally the hardest weapon to hit people with directly. Those few Electro balls that happen to hit are sheer luck as well. And I've practiced airshots a lot, even the luck is rare and I don't think most players even know that those balls explode and deal damage when they hit someone directly. Only way to reliably hit them is if you're REALLY close and the opponent is standing still or moving in straight line to your direction, which needless to say is also a very rare situation. Their only practical usage is with combos and that's where that gun's improvisation value falls short. There's also no inherent need for Electro balls to have spread. One may argue it's easier to combo with it that way because it spreads the projectiles around for you, covering more blast area, but that's just depending to luck too much in my opinion. I'd rather be in full control where each and every ball flies to, instead of having to blame on the mechanics every time they fly to inconvenient places randomly.
RE: Why replace the mg with the ARC? - aa - 07-19-2016
Superman problems
RE: Why replace the mg with the ARC? - Mario - 07-19-2016
Not every weapon needs to be a direct hit weapon. Both hagar and electro fall under the "area of effect" category, where spread doesn't matter, as the intention is to cause splash over a large area.
They're also not supposed to be great long range accurate weapons, others take that role (speaking of course for the current balance, what you prefer personally is another matter).
But, it's an open source game, you're more than welcome to make your own balance configuration, it just probably won't replace the default/casual balance.
As for the original topic; arc and machine gun are both technically hitscan beam weapons, it doesn't make sense to have 2 of the same kind of weapon in the core balance, even if they have minor differences.
Machine gun will remain in the extended balance.
RE: Why replace the mg with the ARC? - Smilecythe - 07-19-2016
(07-19-2016, 06:22 AM)Mario Wrote: Both hagar and electro fall under the "area of effect" category, where spread doesn't matter, as the intention is to cause splash over a large area.It matters because regardless the intended category, people will still improvise with them and at that point luck becomes a deciding factor. Even without a spread, splash over large area is almost guaranteed with any rapid fire weapon because nobody stands still or holds their mouse at a perfect fixed position at every single time. You might as well be in control of what area you're splashing on, there's no need to rely on a randomized spread system to make the spread happen which just ruins it for other potential uses and lowers their improvisation value for us "supermans".
RE: Why replace the mg with the ARC? - Halogene - 07-19-2016
I am worried that once you remove randomness from hagar it will become so overpowered in a capable player's hands that it needs to get nerfed beyond usability for casual players...