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Obligatory weapon balance thread!!111!!1!oneone!
02-16-2012, 10:22 AM (This post was last modified: 02-16-2012 10:34 AM by _Subzero_.)
Post: #26
RE: Obligatory weapon balance thread!!111!!1!oneone!
(02-16-2012 07:29 AM)Mirio Wrote:  Ok, I'm not done yet. Big Grin

(02-15-2012 11:55 PM)_Subzero_ Wrote:  And facing_words also doesn't have any issue with nex, as it is precisely about dodging nex campers - its just a different gameplay in this map.

No issue you with Nex, but you have to dodge all the Nex campers... How is that possible?!


I don't know. The only reason you can think like that is that Nexuiz players are not that good anymore.
Maybe play this map vs. uhm.. let's say kojn, fisume and/or asyyy (probably one of them would be enough already) and then we can talk again. Wink

Let me explain it differently.
Its not an issue its a _feature_. This map is played specifically for a trench warfare. And don't get wrong impression - there are good nex aimers in Nexuiz, and nex there is by far stronger than in Xonotic. That is why typical outcome in this map is something like 2:1 after 15 minutes. This is obviousely an unusual map and atypical gameplay. I know that many players wouldn't enjoy it. I personally would not play it more than, say, once an evening. Still, I enjoy it, and it so happens that map is recognized in Laid Back - it is played once in a while, precisely because its something different than a typical pro-offensive map.

@tZork
This deffinitely could be a part of the reason why laser-padjumps are erratic. In Nexuiz, pads would bump projectile weapons but I never saw them bumping laser (and I saw it in Xonotic). I would say bumping rocker/mortar granade/the like/ is a combat feature. Bumping laser is more of a visual effect, worth in my opinion far less than laser jamping off pads.
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02-16-2012, 11:41 AM (This post was last modified: 02-16-2012 11:42 AM by booo.)
Post: #27
RE: Obligatory weapon balance thread!!111!!1!oneone!
Somehow as time goes by i have the feeling that the collective "feeling/awareness" of competitive ppl converges to the one local but highly likely solution = QL almost balance and QL-rail delay. Its like watching some sort of reinvention of the wheel. Can we get that rail delay? that ll pretty much boost competitive play killing the all-too-dominant nex+mortar and making it mortar+nex(with risk). rl+mortal combo , and every other combo actually are fun and not game-destroying as rl can inflict a lot of self damage ,the same as a misplaced sec electro. frankly, the issue is only nex+mortar, and that comes imho due to the 0 self damage usually this combo means.

Not wanting to admit this fact, is damaging not only for competitive game,but the game in total (this comes from a 99% nex+mortar user). Lets just accept that QL nailed this with the rail delay and adopt it . (could remove the heat up potentially) .
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02-16-2012, 12:35 PM
Post: #28
RE: Obligatory weapon balance thread!!111!!1!oneone!
booo,

I would rather argue for the idea put forward by Rage_ATWM, i.e. bringing some of the push force back in. The "punching ball effect", Rage_ATWM wrote about, is definitely large part of the effectivenes of nex aiming. If game gets additional dynamics (and also if laser become more usefull in evasion) nex would naturally become less effective.
Especially in ctf that is the direction I would pursue.
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02-16-2012, 05:13 PM
Post: #29
RE: Obligatory weapon balance thread!!111!!1!oneone!
I think the self-push force is perfectly fine at the moment, and the laser settings, so I'm not going too be pro for it. Also all of the maps you previously mentioned subzero were ALL nexuiz maps, not one Xonotic official map did you mention which is kind of sad - I hope for one we get a DCC CTF server with such maps as attic, courtfun, newtonian nightmare, apace, kuniu's new CTF Map (forgot the name), maps with much better quality. If you want too play them (nexuiz) maps, then play them with the Xonotic settings. Personally I think changing the laser strength just too incorporate easier laser padding is ridiculous.

"If game gets additional dynamics (and also if laser become more usefull in evasion) nex would naturally become less effective.
Especially in ctf that is the direction I would pursue."

And would also make the other weapons less effective naturally, again going back down the annoying path of nexuiz CTF, and before you try too counter argument that it wouldn't, if it makes probably the most effective weapon in CTF less effective, what do you think it's going to do to the others. One of the reasons I really enjoy Xonotic CTF is because it actually is not just about using the laser, and the fact it is no longer a NEX/MG fest like nexuiz, how many complaints/threads were there on the nexuiz boards about camping and just nexgun and mg all the time - lots. How many on the Xonotic forums - Zero I think?

@Boo
"Not wanting to admit this fact, is damaging not only for competitive game,but the game in total (this comes from a 99% nex+mortar user). Lets just accept that QL nailed this with the rail delay and adopt it . (could remove the heat up potentially)."

I agree, not sure others will, but as you stated - it's not wanting too admit that fact. It would definitely help cut down the nex/mortar combo effectiveness you talk about, whether people want too actually try it out is another matter, but I expect too see the 'weapon X is too underpowered' speech in the future otherwise Smile

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02-16-2012, 05:25 PM
Post: #30
RE: Obligatory weapon balance thread!!111!!1!oneone!
Kojn, you always write down too. But it only is too if it means also, if you use it as for example: to be, it should just be one o.

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02-16-2012, 05:40 PM
Post: #31
RE: Obligatory weapon balance thread!!111!!1!oneone!
Yea I know but a lot of the time I write replies via my phone don't read things back much Tongue

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02-16-2012, 09:33 PM (This post was last modified: 02-16-2012 09:42 PM by _Subzero_.)
Post: #32
RE: Obligatory weapon balance thread!!111!!1!oneone!
(02-16-2012 05:13 PM)kojn^ Wrote:  I think the self-push force is perfectly fine at the moment,

Look at Rage's example, it says otherwise - pushing ball effect, whether you use just rl, just mortar or combo.

(02-16-2012 05:13 PM)kojn^ Wrote:  Also all of the maps you previously mentioned subzero were ALL nexuiz maps, not one Xonotic official map did you mention which is kind of sad - I hope for one we get a DCC CTF server with such maps as attic, courtfun, newtonian nightmare, apace, kuniu's new CTF Map (forgot the name), maps with much better quality.

Of course I hope they will be there, wouldn't make much sense otherwise.

(02-16-2012 05:13 PM)kojn^ Wrote:  If you want too play them (nexuiz) maps, then play them with the Xonotic settings.

Its only about "Xonotic settings" - they are not written in stone, as you see in all these discussions.

(02-16-2012 05:13 PM)kojn^ Wrote:  Personally I think changing the laser strength just too incorporate easier laser padding is ridiculous.

And I disagree. Laser pad-jumps are a very nice part of game.

(02-16-2012 05:13 PM)kojn^ Wrote:  "If game gets additional dynamics (and also if laser become more usefull in evasion) nex would naturally become less effective.
Especially in ctf that is the direction I would pursue."

And would also make the other weapons less effective naturally, again going back down the annoying path of nexuiz CTF, and before you try too counter argument that it wouldn't, if it makes probably the most effective weapon in CTF less effective, what do you think it's going to do to the others.

But you surely do know that nex have no splash damage, no spread of any kind, nor can it be guided like rockets. Yes, this kind of precision weaponry is what gets most affected by player movements (e.g. from push force) - in comparison, any area/splash/spreaded/guided weapon is way less affected.

(02-16-2012 05:13 PM)kojn^ Wrote:  One of the reasons I really enjoy Xonotic CTF is because it actually is not just about using the laser,

And it won't ever be "just about using laser" as you still need to kill your opponents, in addition to moving. But it may get a lot more fun gameplay from laser movements.

(02-16-2012 05:13 PM)kojn^ Wrote:  and the fact it is no longer a NEX/MG fest like nexuiz, how many complaints/threads were there on the nexuiz boards about camping and just nexgun and mg all the time - lots. How many on the Xonotic forums - Zero I think?

If you want to avoid camping, there is a solution - dont put nex on open space maps if they ever get ported. I am for that.
And I do see a different kind of "complaints/threads" on Xonotic forums. They go like "guys, just criple combos and make amo spray the way to play, preferably with mg"

(02-16-2012 05:13 PM)kojn^ Wrote:  @Boo
"Not wanting to admit this fact, is damaging not only for competitive game,but the game in total (this comes from a 99% nex+mortar user). Lets just accept that QL nailed this with the rail delay and adopt it . (could remove the heat up potentially)."

I agree, not sure others will, but as you stated - it's not wanting too admit that fact. It would definitely help cut down the nex/mortar combo effectiveness you talk about, whether people want too actually try it out is another matter, but I expect too see the 'weapon X is too underpowered' speech in the future otherwise Smile

You can cut down nex-combos efectivens by simply putting higher bar on nex aim - just follow Rage proposition with more push. You can advance this further by letting laser be used for evasion. This will decrease combo effectivenes, but will not remove them completly from game - very skilled player would still be able to benefit from combo. And i belive this is right because combo fighting is more involved than amo spray, and it should stay as a part of game and a usefull option for players that master them.

I think we are going around at this point.
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02-17-2012, 12:56 AM
Post: #33
RE: Obligatory weapon balance thread!!111!!1!oneone!
Agreed with _Subzero_

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02-17-2012, 03:37 AM
Post: #34
RE: Obligatory weapon balance thread!!111!!1!oneone!
Ok I did a bit of reading up ... I agree to Subzero to the extent that laser padding indeed was an interesting feature that is mostly gone from Xonotic (at least I haven't discovered how to do it so far). Increasing laser push force generally is not the way to go, though, imho. The only thing that should be changed, if anything at all, is receiving a significantly higher push from the jump pad if you time the laser shot right, without changing the general self push force. That would mean a jump pad specific change for the laser weapon, something you won't probably be able to achieve by messing with some cvars.

Another thing that could be thought about is the point subzero mentioned that in Nexuiz you sort of juggled with your opponent. I am aware that pro players tend to find this highly annoying, on the other hand irritating my opponent by messing with his movement is a particular funny aspect of the game FOR ME (!). That's why I also enjoy duels on Xoylent, as some people may know (if you disregard the fact that spawn points are placed badly). So in general I wouldn't mind increasing the push force for OTHER players than yourself a bit, especially for the laser, since air control got so strong.

BUT don't get me wrong here, those are suggestions I'd say "ok, might be fun", but I'm absolutely happy with the laser and push forces and stuff as it is now, from my point of view things might even stay as they are for 1.0 (provided we give Crylink secondary a proper use).

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02-17-2012, 03:50 AM
Post: #35
RE: Obligatory weapon balance thread!!111!!1!oneone!
As an alternative solution to a nex delay, why not simply do not let the nex recharge when you do not hold it out? It might seem obscure or annoying, but its along the lines of the CR reload in 2.5.2 . Then essentially a first loaded nex+mortar is still lethal, but the next nex spam is going to be crippled for quite some time when someone starts changing weapons all over the place. It is more towards the hold down left button idea at some point was there, without it being too annoying. And it is still not crippling the weapon, only the arcade madman combos (which sometimes are fun, i admit).

Subzero (n Lee),

I understand your point, but do you really think a person jumping with the laser becomes a more difficult target for the nex?imho more than 60-70% of the time he is an easier target. I am not that sure about the bouncing around either, it gives quite a random element in the heat of the battle which i wouldn't really like. Anyway the laser in nexuiz did not really fix in dm the nex+mortar dominance, not even in CTF (it only allowed certain very skilled laserjumpers to cap when not around a solid defence). So the laser argument is somewhat invalid. What we are facing here is a single combo dominating over everything. Do we care or not is the question. Since mortar eliminates most of the times the RL as well, and it is extremely hard to dodge, i think we do care. Watching every highly skilled DMer or Dueller , you'd think the game is 2 weapons. (best case 3 1/2) . In QL i agree this is the same, but at least there are half of the weapons there already Tongue .

And indeed, some ppl write too with double o all the time , it might be some stupid autocorrect Smile
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02-17-2012, 03:59 AM
Post: #36
RE: Obligatory weapon balance thread!!111!!1!oneone!
Ill keep this one short then Ill do a Mirio and leave this thread alone.

Firstly, from what the OP posted there isnt much too discuss.
Secondly, in regards too this weapon combo debacle you have had a few very experienced players highlight the issue, and it can be backed up by the stats. Im not that bothered about if comboing gets changed or not, but if im being totally honest, like boo said it certainly is an issue.

Increasing push force Is not going too solve that issue, your still going too be able too do that quick combo, your point is it will because it will make it harder for people too aim or hit, I don't remember having such problems in nexuiz, it is not going too drasticaly remove the effectiveness and if you think it will I think your slightly deluded, I would say its because you personally just want there too be more push rather then it actually going too sort out the above 'issue'.

As for the laser, im not going too be pro something that isn't causing a major issue, but has the potential too ruin a lot of things. Is it going too be for the benefit of the game or your own desire? Its not like its impossible too laserpad at the moment, if its possible too make it better somehow without increaseing its force then fine.

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02-17-2012, 04:18 AM (This post was last modified: 02-17-2012 04:20 AM by Mirio.)
Post: #37
RE: Obligatory weapon balance thread!!111!!1!oneone!
(02-17-2012 03:50 AM)booo Wrote:  As an alternative solution to a nex delay, why not simply do not let the nex recharge when you do not hold it out?

It does not recharge if you don't run around with it.


@Halogene: Your chance _not_ to bea teacher one time! Big Grin I can show you 'laser padding'.
I don't find it that hard, it's just not useful in 90% of current Xonotic maps (imo), because you can reach those areas mostly with 1-2 laser jumps OR the roof is to close anyway.

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02-17-2012, 05:23 AM (This post was last modified: 02-17-2012 05:41 AM by _Subzero_.)
Post: #38
RE: Obligatory weapon balance thread!!111!!1!oneone!
@kojn,boo
If you look at Rage example you see that the opponent stays in front of attacker no matter how many hits he gets. Because of this attacker dont even need to aim that much.
However, if you are pushed, attacer will find it way harder to aim and will often need to reapproach for another attack. Its more difficult to hit with nex something that truly moves, not to mention hitting with no aiming as in combo. But when the target is in front of you most of the time then yes, its an easy hit.

Regarding laser and evasion. Its not wise to laser up when you are camped in open space. But camping in open space can be dealt with as I proposed above. Now it is good tactics to laser out of direct confrontation when you happen to be in disadvantage. Laser does provide defensive opportunities. That is why e.g. missile guiding is quite often used in nexuiz - you cant expect your opponent to stay in front of you untill one of you prevail. If in disadvantage, he will typically laser hell outa place.

Also I dont belive solid laser movementse are bad for game. Quite contrary, especially in ctf. They are more fun than pushing-ball gaming.
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02-17-2012, 05:57 AM
Post: #39
RE: Obligatory weapon balance thread!!111!!1!oneone!
(02-17-2012 05:23 AM)_Subzero_ Wrote:  Regarding laser and evasion. Its not wise to laser up when you are camped in open space. But camping in open space can be dealt with as I proposed above. Now it is good tactics to laser out of direct confrontation when you happen to be in disadvantage. Laser does provide defensive opportunities. That is why e.g. missile guiding is quite often used in nexuiz - you cant expect your opponent to stay in front of you untill one of you prevail. If in disadvantage, he will typically laser hell outa place.

Also I dont belive solid laser movementse are bad for game. Quite contrary, especially in ctf. They are more fun than pushing-ball gaming.

This is Xonotic. It is a different game.

Maybe play CTF in Xonotic at first before judging about anything, because 'to laser out' etc. just works.
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Yes, of course pickups are more organised and it won't be exactly like that in public, BUT it's harder so you get the idea how everything works.

Also Xonotic pickups are much more fun than it used to be in Nexuiz, because there is not an issue about campers for example (and there is an issue with that according to your post, otherwise you would not explain the stuff like that), due to good maps(/not good for camping) and a good Nex. Tongue

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(I'm not bashing Nexuiz, I played it for years until it's 'death' and know how it works -especially CTF).

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02-17-2012, 06:22 AM (This post was last modified: 02-17-2012 06:32 AM by _Subzero_.)
Post: #40
RE: Obligatory weapon balance thread!!111!!1!oneone!
Miro,
I will probably stick to Laid Back for its last days. There are full server games there most weekends with folks I played for quite some time, some of whom I am not shure will play any longer. But thx for invitation.
I understand Xonotic is a different game but I also see its still work in progres with various changes discussed/implemented.
I'm not saying camping is not problematic, but with any space map it can be remedied as I pointed out. Its not a center issue in this discussion.
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02-17-2012, 07:20 AM
Post: #41
RE: Obligatory weapon balance thread!!111!!1!oneone!
Argh about the nex recharge mirio-shame on me.

Anyway in the end it doesn't really matter. my limited weight feeling i got from xonotic so far is that ther weapons work better, and ctf is less chaotic. Then again, this is a taste issue i can see why many ppl prefer to play space map nexuiz ctf. In the end its another game almost overall, like when playing minsta ctf , or hook ctf. We can't have it all and pls everyone. : )

Subzero, many ppl play in DCC because the same ppl play over and over there and it has a strong feeling of community. to be frank, i think even if there was duke nukem 3d or doom1 there ,it wouldn't make a big difference Wink
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02-17-2012, 07:33 AM (This post was last modified: 02-17-2012 07:46 AM by rafallus.)
Post: #42
RE: Obligatory weapon balance thread!!111!!1!oneone!
I found some awful oddity on space maps like newtonian-nightmare or brokenworld.

Shotgun is shockingly powerful to the point of overpowered, due to knockback abilities against enemies going via jumppads. Sure, you do hardly any damage over range, but you slow flying enemies down to the point they won't make it and plunge to their doom, and bam, you rack up easy kills. It's pretty welcome feature if you use weapons like electro/nex/mortar/rl, where landing a hit against aerial enemy is a show of skills, but not so much for a shotgun, where you spray pellets in hitscan manner, so doing ANY damage at all isn't terribly difficult. IMO knockback from sg should either be reduced a lot or eliminated altogether - as on other maps it makes pretty little difference.
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02-19-2012, 03:59 PM
Post: #43
RE: Obligatory weapon balance thread!!111!!1!oneone!
BTW some people may be wondering why I haven't replied/commented

Basically, I don't have time for this at the moment. I said i'd create a discussion on future plans when I'm able to follow and work on the topics at hand, but this thread is both bad at maintaining a good topic and at the wrong time for me to be able to discuss it.

So, look for an official discussion thread later, where i'll discuss (probably) most of these things and other different issues.
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02-19-2012, 04:37 PM
Post: #44
RE: Obligatory weapon balance thread!!111!!1!oneone!
booo Wrote:Subzero, many ppl play in DCC because the same ppl play over and over there and it has a strong feeling of community. to be frank, i think even if there was duke nukem 3d or doom1 there ,it wouldn't make a big difference Wink
oh how i hope you're right booo Wink

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03-11-2012, 03:52 AM (This post was last modified: 03-11-2012 03:54 AM by booo.)
Post: #45
RE: Obligatory weapon balance thread!!111!!1!oneone!
I just watched the really nice videos from some pro gamers ql-experiance heavy in youtube zeroql vs juven1le
kojn vs zeroql,
(btw kojn, what a defeat, i would be steaming after it Tongue ). Given their "pro" status (if indeed it was them,which seems the case), it was extremely interesting to see them immediately adapt to nex+mortar uberdominance. I am really not very sure what would be the best way to deal (if something needs to be dealt with) . Indeed the nex is not the issue as i thought, its the extreme usability of this particular combo. I officialy have no clue if a) This is a problem for the rest as it is for me b) What are the possible solutions to it if indeed it is a problem.

I just found it completely illustrative, these guys are used to professionally exploit the games : P .
Congrats on the 0.6 release, it is really great on all aspects! +thx to the ppl from the QL community that tried out the game : )
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03-14-2012, 06:14 AM (This post was last modified: 03-14-2012 06:37 AM by kojn^.)
Post: #46
RE: Obligatory weapon balance thread!!111!!1!oneone!
Its not really a problem to be honest the combo so much now, yes the videos is nice but I was having some fun there as you'll notice im not timing the items, nor did I try hide near the end so I had no reason to be angry as its just some practice, zeroQL also ask me if im ok with the video Smile. You will also notice he and juvenile both have a good aim in both videos, so not surprising they picked up on the effectiveness of nex/mortar quickly.

I don't think there uber dominant its just that such players have good aim, you should check out the duel finals VOD you will see the difference in gameplay between 2 skilled players and how different it can be played, stormkeep downer and darkzone are all good examples of the use of the other weapons not just nex + mortar.

And to add weapon delay really helps with reducing the mad nex mortar combo madness! I actually think lately though I slipped back into changing weapons too much personally, which I find has made it harder for me with the XPM weapon delay.

Ofcourse if people think its still open for change then discussion can take place, but for example say you couldn't change from nex till 1 or 1.5sec after a shot just for example then the recharge feature would have to probably go as it'd then probably be quite weak vs other combos, so if one thing is changed its quite possible something else would need to be. But as you rightly say its not a problem with its strength.

Also take a look at fisume with RL he does lots of damage with it..do I think its too strong? No. He just has a really good aim with it Smile

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03-17-2012, 10:28 PM
Post: #47
RE: Obligatory weapon balance thread!!111!!1!oneone!
... is it just me ... or is crylink a little over powered atm ... maybe to fix it make the bullets get stronger for every second they've been flying
(so face shots aren't worth much but an across red-planet outside are direct concentration-hit is an instant KO )

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03-18-2012, 04:48 AM
Post: #48
RE: Obligatory weapon balance thread!!111!!1!oneone!
Crylink serves its purpose as a short range weapon, you want to turn it into a pure long range gun which might break balance. Getting a full hit with crylink on a quick player is pretty damn hard and should be rewarded imo.
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03-18-2012, 05:50 AM
Post: #49
RE: Obligatory weapon balance thread!!111!!1!oneone!
watching a couple of videos with fisume vs kojn and realised the difficulty when in close to mid range combat: rocket launcher become to slow and inaccurate, it only becomes a matter of time before a nex shot finishes off either you oryour opponant and the close combat weapon works only when REALLY up close.

Keep in mind I think the only weapon that achieves any short to mid-range accuracy is the secondary from the porto launch. Very useful weapon to use yet people donĀ“t add it to maps because of the weapons primary.

Just wondered if anyone had any thoughts on this.
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