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The big XPM / competitive gaming thread

#26
Well, asyyy, for me a pro mode should reward being good at really everything.

There is now only one real change in XPM, the h/a armor caps. And I just don't think that is the way to make a "pro mode".
I have no problems at all with making a promode, I just think it should be done an other way.
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#27
I prefer the term Xonotic Competitive Mode (XCM) btw, promode is misleading for many people. Not only the quake players are confused because their "promode" is something different, but also other players who think that promode is for "pros" only. The name change request got denied because "promode makes sense", no matter if it causes confusion. But it was an unofficial request, maybe that should be opened for discussion again.

So it is not for "pros" but simply a modification to reduce randomness:
- disable newton projectile physics,
- disable blowing up of projectiles
- disable recoil (hopefully soon)
- disable powerup jitter and timers (hopefully soon)

The 100/100 cap has been made to make timing of items more important, relative compared to aiming.
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#28
XCM seems a much better name for it. It simply is that, not a "pro" mode. If you just wanna play with less randomness I can understand that. I just won't play it myself.

Only one request: Please make at least one of your duel servers have normal settings, I just enjoy normal more, and currently all duel servers have xcm/xpm.

I don't see a problem any more, back to topic.
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#29
Any stupid CLOCK can time items. That's why the waypoints are there - to make "timer cheats" ineffective.

If you remove the waypoints, then people simply will end up coding timer cheats. Which is very easy. E.g., just press a button that has bound
Code:
defer 115 "say_team Strength in 5 seconds"
when taking strength.

By removing the waypoint displays, what you really achieve is that the "pro players" make exactly such scripts again, like before. So the game turns from a FPS into a scripting contest. Is that what you want to achieve?
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#30
Can anyone explain the concept of "recoil" to me? Do you mean push force of weapons? I sure hope you do not?
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#31
(03-28-2012, 05:22 PM)Halogene Wrote: Can anyone explain the concept of "recoil" to me? Do you mean push force of weapons? I sure hope you do not?

It's just the visual effect of the pov/crosshair moving up when you fire and quickly moves back to center, the kind of "shake" that happens when you fire a weapon. It happens very fast and I don't think it affects the actual aim, well I'm pretty sure it's just a visual effect but I could be wrong. Disabling it keeps the view/crosshair from moving up, it makes things a bit smoother looking if slightly less realistic. It's disabled already on some servers and people don't even notice, at least I have not heard any mentions of it hehe.
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#32
Oh ok good good, thanks for explanation. I don't mind disabling/enabling that.
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#33
Divverent rather that then a huge waypoint that shows you EXACTLY when it will spawn.
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#34
I'm a bit shocked right now. Nexuiz not only had a build-in wallhack but also build-in timer cheat? ...
Wouldn't it be better to remove/disable those kind of commands for clients? Or at least make their use visible in server log and/or demo? Why would anyone need to use "defer" in a script for another purpose than cheating?
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#35
defer allows for nonblocking commands, which is a very nice thing to have for advanced console hacking. It is also used in official configs for demo seeking. It's a nice general-purpose tool.

The only efficient anticheat is serverside. For example, culling makes wallhacks useless on maps with decent vis. Clientside fixes can be circumvented, especially easily if the fix consists in a few lines disabling a setting in multiplayer. Thus, a clientside fix would only give an advantage to people who are experienced enough to compile the engine and modify a couple of lines in the source.

Same thing about logging, a simple modification would block the client from sending the message.


EDIT: I remember when defer was implemented, there was a lot of talk about timing items with that. I can't find any logs, but div must remember the conclusions...
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#36
I don't agree with that Mr. Bougo. Modifying your engine/downloading an engine modification is the same as coding/downloading a hack. While possible, it takes effort and bad intentions. Those people ARE cheaters and if caught would get a lifetime ban, at least on my servers. On the other hand, can you really punish someone who uses build-in commands to "cheat"? Everyone will have to use those "hacks" if they don't want to get a possible disadvantage - I don't really like that idea. Either forbid it, or make it a feature (so not only the old players get that advantage). Though I don't like the latter, especially if we get more advanced timing by splitting up the respawn times of megaitems.
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#37
I don't see why or how you would want to enforce mental timing of items as the only non-cheat way. Using defer is no different from using a hardware clock or a small piece of software to do the exact same thing. It's of course easier with defer, but there are alternatives to it, should it be removed.

You're proposing to axe a useful console command because somebody might be using it to time items, which they can do otherwise with a little more effort. This would therefore mostly affect "legitimate" uses of defer.

I agree with you though, not all users of defer (btw, do they even exist?) would mod their engine to bring the command back. And those who do are indeed ill-intentioned. But good luck finding out who does that.
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#38
Quote:I don't see why or how you would want to enforce mental timing of items as the only non-cheat way.
The "how" is difficult indeed, one can always have a friend sitting next to you, timing items. But the "why": timing items is a part of gameplay and takes notably skill when being under pressure. If you and div would draw a clear line with your view on things we should have waypoints for megaitems too.

Quote:You're proposing to axe a useful console command because somebody might be using it to time items, which they can do otherwise with a little more effort. This would therefore mostly affect "legitimate" uses of defer.
I'm proposing to either disable the command during online gameplay (as with fullbright e.g.), or include it into guides so new players can use it as well.

Quote:Using defer is no different from using a hardware clock or a small piece of software to do the exact same thing. It's of course easier with defer, but there are alternatives to it, should it be removed.
With that logic we could also include a trigger bot and a lag hack as those can be easily done with a small piece of software too..
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#39
I once competed in a ladder series for a racing simulation where cheating was as easy as changing your best times in a plain text file on your hard drive. There were thousands of competitors and nobody ever cheated. Because you just did not do that. But well, I guess FPS communities are just not mature enough to expect the same behaviour Wink Every possible cheat and hack will need to be sealed off like a submarine.

Carry on... Wink
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#40
(03-29-2012, 05:47 AM)asy7um Wrote: If you and div would draw a clear line with your view on things we should have waypoints for megaitems too.
I really don't know what to think about this. I can't imagine the impact, since I don't play anymore.

Quote:I'm proposing to either disable the command during online gameplay (as with fullbright e.g.), or include it into guides so new players can use it as well.
The problem with that is that we could not even have a replacement for nonblocking console commands (i.e. a limited version of defer that does what defer 0.001 does), as that could be used in association with cl_cmd rpn to build a cfg-implemented defer. It would be a regression; and even though it will not affect me directly if that happens, I would be seriously bummed, considering the excitement it brought me in nexuiz.

Actually, would you say that we should remove anything in the xonotic console that gives the user enough flexibility to implement an ingame timer bind? (I'm not setting you up or anything, I'm just curious as to how far you think limitations have to go)

Quote:With that logic we could also include a trigger bot and a lag hack as those can be easily done with a small piece of software too..
A timer is trivial to write and virtually undetectable. To make a good bot requires quite a bit of skill, especially if you want it to be stealthy. I don't know a thing about lag hacks.

Besides, a timer has other uses than cheating; a trigger bot, hardly.
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#41
Quote:Actually, would you say that we should remove anything in the xonotic console that gives the user enough flexibility to implement an ingame timer bind? (I'm not setting you up or anything, I'm just curious as to how far you think limitations have to go)
What other possibilities are there? For me it's simple: either no one may use it, or everyone should be able to. No obscurity please.

Btw, thanks to itsme and nifrek I found a way to limit the usefulness of defer-based scripts: http://88.198.17.137/_files/Config%27s/S...rclear.cfg
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#42
Without a waypoint some ppl will gain a shady advantage using defer, kitchen clocks or slaves.
Axing defer simply wont help much at this point
So in the interest ffa games, it will stay.
One option would be a, default on, cvar for item waypoints. However the more simple solution is you who do not like this using cl_hidewaypoints 1 to hide it for yourself Wink
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#43
The impact of defer-based scripts is much bigger in teamgames, especially tdm. A team of 4 players, all using those kind of scripts, linked to say_team could time all major items without much effort and would gain a noticeable advantage over a team which has to time everything manually and share the timings at the right moment on voicechat.
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#44
That's why it is easier to provide the same advantage with and official tool ingame, and let the user decide if they want to use it or not. It's the same with forced enemy models.

On the other mentioned thing: "wallhack in nexuiz" I think you're talking about r_showdisabledepthtest which is a developer cvar, tha can show what the engine realy renders. We use it to debug culling, to know what the engine actually renders and what the server networks to the clients. For a map that is not compiled with vis, yes, it does exactly what a wallhack does, however, in that case the mapper is to blame, not the devs who need this tool.
It's the same as if you'd say people should ban knifes from kitchens that they use to slice bread, because you can stab people with that easily.
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#45
I don't know if you realized it but on maps like final_rage, warfare, soylent, aggressor, evilspace, and many other popular ones those cvars in fact provided a working wallhack, no matter if sv_cullentities was 0 or 1. Transferring responsibility towards the mappers for that is easy, but you know better than anyone that those mappers do the work in their free time and without payment. You can't just demand from them to fix all the maps. Anyway, that wallhack thing seems to be fixed in xonotic, so that's a closed case.
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#46
"Transferring responsibility towards the mappers for that is easy"

And I still say that's what should have been done. In that case, those maps were unfinished, and not ready for "serious", competitive way. However, there are a few this that has to be noted:

Evilspace is an all open map, there's nothing to cull there Tongue
I can't speak about Soylent, but Xoylent has a very good culling. Run around the map in circles, and watch your demo with freefly camera. All the entities will go away when your character is on the other side of the map.

Warfare, Aggressor were non official maps iirc, but only remakes. In case they were official, someone should have made a ticket about wrong culling there.

Final Rage is tZork's map, and I know he does hinting. I truly don't know how he failed that there. Anyway, I know he'd fix the map if he'd know about it.
[Image: 561.png]
"One should strive to achieve; not sit in bitter regret."
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#47
(03-29-2012, 07:35 AM)asy7um Wrote: Btw, thanks to itsme and nifrek I found a way to limit the usefulness of defer-based scripts: http://88.198.17.137/_files/Config%27s/S...rclear.cfg

Remote-sent defer clear's are useless. It's easy to circumvent them with a few console aliases, no modding needed.
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#48
On a different side note: I'm totally amused by the fact that some of the players are against theese timers because they take away the skill from the game, yet they are totally fine with:

- dumbing down the game graphics, to remove distracting things, because that way it is too hard to recognise enemies (yeah yeah, I know about the high quality CRT 60HZ thingo, but that's imho pretty weak reason...)
- also replacing game content like effectinfo.txt, models and skins for guns (note: this is STILL CONSIDERED CHEATING), because the vanilla ones are too hard to see and recognise

Am I the only one who sees this contradictory? oO
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"One should strive to achieve; not sit in bitter regret."
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#49
(03-29-2012, 09:30 AM)C.Brutail Wrote: Am I the only one who sees this contradictory? oO

Yes. I have a hard time seeing it. How can you even compare the two?
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#50
gl_picmip does not affect the skill ceiling of the game, timing does.
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