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The big XPM / competitive gaming thread
03-27-2012, 03:30 AM (This post was last modified: 04-01-2012 01:18 PM by asyyy.)
Post: #1
The big XPM / competitive gaming thread
This thread is for discussing anything XPM / competitive gaming related, including suggestions for settings, reviews of maps and general discussion.

Must-have features/bugs:
  • Powerup timer needs to be resetted to 0 when warmup ends
  • Remove graphical powerup timer/waypoint (serverside, by option)
  • Dead bodies should be darkened and/or removed instantly (by option)
  • Add g_norecoil 1 to balanceXPM.cfg
  • Add g_pickup_respawntimejitter_powerup 0 to balanceXPM.cfg

Nice-to-have features:
  • Simple Items
  • Item timer for spectators
  • cl_followkiller: Enable auto follow mode triggered by a death of the spectated player
  • cl_followPU: Enable auto follow mode for powerups
  • cl_forceplayersounds: Force sounds (like model and color)
  • Pure server: Use checksums to verify pureness of client content
  • HUD: Better weaponbar, either by highlighting the active weapon and/or using icons to symbolize the weapons
  • HUD: Show shots left, not ammo left

For discussion:
  • g_shootfromeye 1: Shoot from crosshair instead from weapon
  • g_jump_grunt 1: Grunt each time you make a jump

Maps:
Configs:
Hall of champions:
Links:
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03-27-2012, 05:57 AM
Post: #2
RE: The big XPM / competitive gaming thread
I think you also need simplified textures and map geometry, maybe even to the point of having only 2 colors, one for walls, the other for ceiling/floor, like in QW. Would at least be nice to have.
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03-27-2012, 06:12 AM (This post was last modified: 03-27-2012 06:14 AM by Cortez666.)
Post: #3
RE: The big XPM / competitive gaming thread
gl_picmip is the key

but why not making only making simplified maps with no real textures at all?

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03-27-2012, 06:24 AM
Post: #4
RE: The big XPM / competitive gaming thread
Something that I would like to add would be making powerup respawn constant 2 minutes again (without any stupid delays), and removing the huge waypoint that tells you when powerup respawns. An important part in competitive 4on4 TDM (f.ex.) is timing main items and, more important, the powerups. Those delays are totally ruining this aspect, while the waypoint is totally unnecessary in competitive games aswell.

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03-27-2012, 06:26 AM
Post: #5
RE: The big XPM / competitive gaming thread
Also weapon switch fix, when u switch to weapon to be bigger in hud and popup.

here is sample

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR3zcnLwB...re=related

or with simple items like this

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y80/zer...0001-4.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y80/zer...0002-1.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y80/zer...ot0003.jpg

and also hud ammo left, asyyy knows what i am talking about.

metsu ZeRoQL (Stats) - <@nifrek> true, I guess in tdm you also dont always have your perfect choice of weapon, especially when ZeRoQL is controlling nex Dodgy
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03-27-2012, 07:04 AM
Post: #6
RE: The big XPM / competitive gaming thread
Fisume:
I think I found the cvar causing the powerup delay: g_pickup_respawntimejitter_powerup is "30" ["30"] custom cvar
It was possible to disable the powerup waypoints in nexuiz, but I can't find the cvar anymore.
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03-27-2012, 07:16 AM (This post was last modified: 03-27-2012 07:22 AM by kojn^.)
Post: #7
RE: The big XPM / competitive gaming thread
Id like to see you guys asking a mapper to change some things on potential XONOTIC maps not Q3 map. Maps that have a good layout and are interesting but not well thought out item placement for TDM. Has anyone checked out bio_labour, bleach, the quad generator, no atelier in that list atm either, also strength. Ok so half of them have not a good layout of items or like 3-4 megaarmours but these things and weapon and powerup layout can be fixed easily, because quite a few of these maps have top level design so why not start thinking about this and getting some changes done to make these maps competitively playable . How about a dieselpower remake from nexuiz for Xonotic, that was a nicely layer out map. You know things are sad when you have more maps from quake series as part of the mappool then original nexuiz/xonotic maps..

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03-27-2012, 07:37 AM
Post: #8
RE: The big XPM / competitive gaming thread
Well what do you expect, there is no real tdm community (yet). When people play tdm, mappers will get interested in that mode too.

Quad generator: 80% of the map are stairs, low fps
Bio Lab: Rooms, items, teleporters - but no real concept
Bleach: I talked to cortez about that one, currently it has 1-2 megaarmors in each room lol
Strength: While over-complicated, that one would be unique at least. Needs an item fix ofc (and people willing to spend hours learning the map)
Ateliar: Looks like a decent map, gonna put in on the server

I hope we can get mappers to create new, unique content optimized for xonotic gameplay instead of investing their time in remaking old stuff like dieselpower for nostalgia to be honest.
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03-27-2012, 08:05 AM (This post was last modified: 03-27-2012 08:09 AM by kojn^.)
Post: #9
RE: The big XPM / competitive gaming thread
Was not suggesting dieselpower for nostaia but more so as it was a very good map that never got played hardly and had a very interesting layout.

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03-27-2012, 10:55 AM
Post: #10
RE: The big XPM / competitive gaming thread
I think a max. of 100 a/h without megas is only good for duel. For TDM, especially in 4v4 it would be ridiculous to have to always use the megas.

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03-27-2012, 11:35 AM (This post was last modified: 03-27-2012 11:53 AM by asyyy.)
Post: #11
RE: The big XPM / competitive gaming thread
Mepper:
Well the idea is that megaitems get weighted heavily. So if your team isn't able to control at least one (which requires teamwork), it will have a very hard time. Everyone running around with 200/200 just shooting at each other is closer to CA than to TDM. We have already played a couple of 4v4s btw and it worked quite well. Rather I think maybe the armor cap should be increased to 125 or 150. Otherwise you get weird situations on maps like downer or aerowalk as when you just grabbed the megaarmor and can't grab the 50armor afterwards.

Kojn:
It all comes down to finding a mapper who is motivated and capable to push dieselpower to xonotic standards. But if I had a mapper like this in mind, I would rather ask him to remake a more epic map, like final_rage for example. Resources are limited Smile
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03-27-2012, 03:03 PM
Post: #12
RE: The big XPM / competitive gaming thread
I do understand that asyyy, let me explain what I think about XPM, in TDM especially:

The idea behind XPM is that it should make the game more competitive, and that just pure skills count harder (less luck, more skills).
From what I have seen, this is not really happening. If you look for example to the video ZeroQL made where you see Juven1le playing. He is just new to the game, but manages, pure by having an incredible aim to end up first of the winning team. This while he, with all respect, does not have a good movement, isn't really used to the Xonotic weapons yet and barely uses combos.
Should you be able as newcomer, to play XPM on the highest skill level, with just a good aim? I do not think so. From what I have seen XPM in TDM makes the a lot slower, and completely focused on aim.

I would suggest to remove those extra healthcaps, and play preferably on maps without a nex.
This way movement, quick reactions, and good weapon knowledge would count much heavier. And since the only way to not die fast is moving fast, the game will get a lot faster -> more fun.
I know this will make aim and mega timing a little less important. But in total you need A LOT more skills.
And I know this way you can't easily control maps any more, but is that what you want? Simply controlling the megas and spawnkill your enemies?
For me at least it gives much and much more satisfactin if kill someone in close and fast combat.

I think this way is just more fun, and will make everything faster. And it simply is a fact that you need more skills this way. Newcomers will have to learn a LOT more to be good. And IMO that is what you want.You want your game to be really different, you want your game to require other skills.

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03-27-2012, 03:54 PM
Post: #13
RE: The big XPM / competitive gaming thread
I don't want to sound harsh but two things:
1) Juven1le is an absolute world class tdm player in quake. While he might not be familiar with all the details of xonotic, he for sure knows how to play that map very well.
2) How can you judge the skill or fun of 4v4 tdm when you've not participated in a single game? Sorry but you don't sound like you understand even the basics which is fine as you are quite new to that kind of games, but you shouldn't try to teach people about stuff without gathering some knowledge on that subject first.
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03-27-2012, 04:47 PM (This post was last modified: 03-28-2012 09:25 AM by Apr0ph1z.)
Post: #14
RE: The big XPM / competitive gaming thread
(03-27-2012 03:03 PM)Mepper Wrote:  For me at least it gives much and much more satisfactin if kill someone in close and fast combat.
You dont want that item controll matters.You want less tactics and pure combat skills as decider for the matches.You want to make movement more important.
There already is an gamemode that fullfills these wishes:CLAN ARENA.
I dont see why we have to change TDM in these direction if there already is an perfect mode for people that want this stuff.

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03-28-2012, 08:18 AM (This post was last modified: 03-28-2012 08:19 AM by cyan.)
Post: #15
RE: The big XPM / competitive gaming thread
(03-27-2012 03:03 PM)Mepper Wrote:  The idea behind XPM is that it should make the game more competitive, and that just pure skills count harder (less luck, more skills).
From what I have seen, this is not really happening. If you look for example to the video ZeroQL made where you see Juven1le playing. He is just new to the game, but manages, pure by having an incredible aim to end up first of the winning team. This while he, with all respect, does not have a good movement, isn't really used to the Xonotic weapons yet and barely uses combos.

A guy like juven1le should be able to it, since he is one of the best TDM players at the moment and maybe one of the best railers in the game.
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03-28-2012, 10:22 AM
Post: #16
RE: The big XPM / competitive gaming thread
I absolutely do know Juven1le is super pro player etc. But still... Asyyy, you say that he should be able to play Xonotic very good, because he simply knows the map very well, and has a shitload of experience in tdm in other games. It is just like it shouldn't matter whether he masters the movement or not, whether he knows all the weapons very well. While this are exactly the Xonotic specific skills.
This is supposed to be a pro mode. You should master all the skills perfectly to play really well in it. And if your "pro mode" doesn't punish you at all for sucking at movement and weapon handling, then there is something completely wrong with your mode.

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03-28-2012, 10:50 AM
Post: #17
RE: The big XPM / competitive gaming thread
im a bit afraid that it goes in a direction like CPMA and gets elitist so that normal player who doesnt play 2-3 matches per day have no chance.

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03-28-2012, 11:21 AM (This post was last modified: 03-28-2012 11:23 AM by Halogene.)
Post: #18
RE: The big XPM / competitive gaming thread
I see your point, kojn, and agree. Reading this has sort of made me understand better what I like so much about Clan Arena. However, I cannot help to agree to Mepper's point that movement skills and weapon knowledge should receive more weight in competitive gameplay. I have a hard time accepting that pure aiming skill can make you win against very experienced players. Unless the skill gap is so fundamentally big that such players would rape you totally if they had equally advanced movement skills and weapon knowledge, too, I fear competitive gameplay gets reduced a bit too much to aim.

I have no idea how to fix that. Maybe it's just some game modes like tdm and duel are affected anyway, since at least movement is important in CA/CTF. But even so, competitive gameplay would be deprived of essential skills of Xonotic gameplay if it was all about aim. Maybe raise the health cap from 100 to 150 so you can survive a nex/mortar combo with regular health pickups? Dunno, depends on the map again, I guess.

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03-28-2012, 11:24 AM (This post was last modified: 03-28-2012 11:38 AM by Apr0ph1z.)
Post: #19
RE: The big XPM / competitive gaming thread
(03-28-2012 10:22 AM)Mepper Wrote:  And if your "pro mode" doesn't punish you at all for sucking at movement and weapon handling, then there is something completely wrong with your mode.

I dont see him sucking at movement in the tdm video.Most of the time its very fluid and totally fits the situation.Just because he doesnt fly over the map like an berserker doesnt mean he couldnt do it if it would be the correct thing to do in this situation.And I also dont see him sucking @ weapon handling.He mostly picks the right weapon in the right situation and he also uses them well.Sure ,his playstyle might look a bit different then for example Mirios,who will jump into your face and unload an nex,mortar,rl,crylink weaponcombo of doom but does that mean his style is wrong and shouldnt be working in an ''pro mode''?Is it really less ''pro'' that he thinks about which weapon to use in which situation instead of unloading his whole weapon bar on you while hoping it will be enough dmg to kill you?

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03-28-2012, 11:32 AM
Post: #20
RE: The big XPM / competitive gaming thread
Cortez, XPM is not THAT different from default gameplay, you just can't stack as much armor/health easily. Someone playing a lot will get better regardless if he's playing default or XPM. There seems to be a lot of confusion on how the health/armor caps affects the game. For example with armor, unlike default settings if you want to stack 200, you'd have to get 2 mega armors without receiving any damage between the time they respawn, or pickup armor shards constantly. This generally makes it harder for the player in control to stay stacked. Of course it can be very different from map to map, depending how many megas there are and if there's a lot of armor shards an small healths, the strategy can be completely different from map to map. It adds a lot of variety to gameplay, I don't see how it can be considered bad.
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03-28-2012, 11:40 AM
Post: #21
RE: The big XPM / competitive gaming thread
(03-28-2012 10:50 AM)Cortez666 Wrote:  im a bit afraid that it goes in a direction like CPMA and gets elitist so that normal player who doesnt play 2-3 matches per day have no chance.
That´s right. Duel is already quite difficult, even I haven´t any chance there although I´m playing Xonotic/Nexuiz for about 2 years. The high amount of skilled players in duels causes that.

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03-28-2012, 11:41 AM
Post: #22
RE: The big XPM / competitive gaming thread
Well, Apro, if you compare my movement for example with his, he is slow. His movement isn't really bad, but it's far away from being perfect.

And no, just using all the weapons isn't the way to go. But every weapon has a specific purpose. Weapons like the crylink, electro, and somtimes even the hagar can be better in certain situations than rl/nex/mortar. Just killing everyone with a ridiculous nex aim shouldn't make you better than players who know how to use every weapon in every situation.

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03-28-2012, 11:41 AM
Post: #23
RE: The big XPM / competitive gaming thread
(03-28-2012 11:24 AM)Apr0ph1z Wrote:  
(03-28-2012 10:22 AM)Mepper Wrote:  And if your "pro mode" doesn't punish you at all for sucking at movement and weapon handling, then there is something completely wrong with your mode.

I dont see him sucking at movement in the tdm video.Most of the time its very fluid and totally fits the situation.And I also dont see him sucking @ weapon handling.He mostly picks the right weapon in the right situation and he also uses them well.Sure ,his playstyle might look a bit different then for example Mirios,who will jump into your face and unload an nex,mortar,rl,crylink weaponcombo of doom but does that mean his style is wrong and shouldnt be working in an ''pro mode''?Is it really less ''pro'' that he thinks about which weapon to use in which situation instead of unloading his whole weapon bar on you while hoping it will be enough dmg to kill you?

Got to agree with most of this. Anyway, back on topic?

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03-28-2012, 11:49 AM
Post: #24
RE: The big XPM / competitive gaming thread
Oh please, don't you have anything constructive to add? Anyone with a bit of tdm experience sees that juven1le positions himself very well on the map and takes smart routes. Every ape can smash buttons and fire 6 different weapons in a couple of seconds. The skill is first to gather a range of weapons, then pick the right weapon per situation. Which is what he does.
And "mastering movement"; the basics of xonotic movement can be learned very quickly. It's nothing more than keep spacebar pressed, steer with the mouse, release forward key on sharp corners and only use strafe keys there. That should be a "pro" skill?
You should stop thinking that your way of playing xonotic is the only possible one, and the most effective one. Which it clearly isn't.
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03-28-2012, 12:19 PM
Post: #25
RE: The big XPM / competitive gaming thread
I remember the idea of a promode which came up in early stages of development (there was a closed bugtracker somnwhere as well).
The idea disappeared more or less fast because such a mod would split up the game somehow.

There was one thing I can remember quite well: The idea to remove the laser. It would make the height differences in the game a lot more important, rather would it make the movement more map-dependent and, additionally, it would limit the locations on maps you can get at (note that the mapper would have a lot more influence on gameplay).
On the other hand it would slow down the game, though additional speed can be reached by rocketjumps.

Anyway, I'm not sure if the laser couldn't be removed by a server-sided cvar... Tongue

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