Xonotic is a free, open source (GPL) ultra-fast, first-person shooter


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06-16-2012, 03:52 PM
Post: #1
Need to check
I would recommend this video to anyone coming online, switching out "gamerdudes" for any group of privilege in which they may fall into and "women" for groups outside of their own. Since its related to our particular choice of pastime, it's at least relevant. And even if there aren't that many women around these parts, the attitude against which this video speaks out against means there will be less of them, meaning less people playing this particular game.

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06-16-2012, 04:07 PM (This post was last modified: 06-16-2012 04:08 PM by rocknroll237.)
Post: #2
RE: Need to check
Perhaps MikeeUsa needs to see this? Big Grin

Maybe this video link can be placed in the forum rules thread or whatever. The Xonotic community needs to make it clear that trolling (of this calibre) isn't acceptable.

Just out of curiosity, why did you decide to make this thread?

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06-16-2012, 04:16 PM
Post: #3
RE: Need to check
Great video! Thumbs up for this! Smile

rocknroll237 Wrote:The Xonotic community needs to make it clear that trolling (of this calibre) isn't acceptable.
Trolling in ANY way is not acceptable. It´s so much easier to be nice and friendly.

XonStats profile | Winner of Beginner´s Cup || Q3Map2Wizard || Heavy Metal | Bio Lab | Bloodball | Sunset | Warfare || Cleax - texture set
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06-16-2012, 04:29 PM
Post: #4
RE: Need to check
I really like this person.

I don't think we had it *too* bad in Nexuiz (dunno about Xonotic because I haven't been much involved ingame). I've seen worse in other (opensource) games. We have some outstanding community members who are super nice and tolerant and would speak out against ingame hate.

I don't mean to downplay anything though, tolerance and inclusiveness are a super important cause. In fact it might be the one thing I personally strive the most to defend and encourage.

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06-16-2012, 04:38 PM (This post was last modified: 06-16-2012 04:40 PM by rocknroll237.)
Post: #5
RE: Need to check
Quote:Trolling in ANY way is not acceptable.

Haha, is what I meant is that trolling isn't such a big deal when it's only people being silly and harmless.

I won't bother speaking out against harmless trolls who say things like: 'Public sector workers who go on strike should be shot'. These are blatantly stupid statements but they can't be taken as something that offensive. Look at Jeremy Clarkson. He insults practically everyone and his statements are almost always way OTT! Only idiots take offence at these statements and bother writing in to Top Gear to complain.

When a troll is doing his best to really cause offence then that's bad. I will speak out against that.

But no... Not all trolling is worth getting angry over. In fact I find Jeremy Clarkson quite funny.

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06-16-2012, 04:58 PM
Post: #6
RE: Need to check
It's kind of hard to draw the line. What might seem to you like over-the-top commentary that can't possibly be taken seriously, might as well be yet another painful and meaningful insult for the receiving end. If you don't know the context, you ought to be careful. It's also important to stop when asked to and not try to come up with excuses.

[Image:http://i.imgur.com/4XODR.png]640K ought to be enough for anybody.
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06-16-2012, 05:00 PM
Post: #7
RE: Need to check
Quote:Trolling in ANY way is not acceptable

Depends on what you consider as trolling.
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06-16-2012, 05:13 PM (This post was last modified: 06-16-2012 05:36 PM by rocknroll237.)
Post: #8
RE: Need to check
Quote:Depends on what you consider as trolling.

Wikipedia says: 'In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response.'

But it does go on to say: 'Early incidences of trolling were considered to be the same as flaming, but this has changed with modern usage by the news media to refer to the creation of any content that targets another person.'

I suppose it varies.

To me, trolling is saying things either to annoy people or to get a response (emotional or otherwise). Trolling can be harmless and hurtful imo.

Quote:If you don't know the context, you ought to be careful.

I knew someone would point this out and it is a valid point. I suppose when you type messages it's hard for people to know how you are conveying your message (sarcasm isn't always implied for example).

Also, sometimes you miss valuable information or other people just blurt out what appears to be random shit when actually it isn't and you don't know the context.

That said, you can still use your judgement to know when someone is being harmless/silly and when someone's saying things to be hurtful. You can still inquire and ask trolls to say sorry or you can even ask them why they are saying what they're saying. If they carry on and don't stop, warn them. If they don't pay any attention to the warnings and they keep on trolling, kick them or ban them.

If a person is trolling for laughs and they tell everyone that they are are only playing and they stop as soon as anyone makes it know that they are offended, then I see nothing wrong with that.

I don't like politically correct people who pick up on every little insult or statement and start pointing their fingers and accusing people of being 'racist' or 'sexist'.

This is a true story. While on a server, this guy had the 'n word' in his nick. I said that's harsh. He said he was black and that it was just a joke. I suggested that he change his nick and (IIRC) he did. I even had a little racist joke myself. Nobody got shirty and that was the end of that. Some 'politically correct' person would have called me racist for what I said, but I made sure that I knew the context and made it clear that I was only making a harmless joke. Does anyone want to hear it? Big Grin

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06-16-2012, 05:20 PM
Post: #9
RE: Need to check
You people don't seem to realize how nice this community is Smile
I think Mr. Bougo would get a heart attack on a quake live clan arena server lol
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06-16-2012, 05:29 PM
Post: #10
RE: Need to check
(06-16-2012 04:07 PM)rocknroll237 Wrote:  Just out of curiosity, why did you decide to make this thread?

I'd say it comes from being at once part of a group of privilege (male) and another without (black). It has put me in a position where i have experienced the benefits of one and the prejudices of the other. Not online mostly but in the real world; my internet connection isn't near reliable (took me all of an hour trying to post this) enough for me to join online communities willy nilly so I have to be careful in the ones I join. Seeing one guy buried in sterotypical trolling on youtube because of his pigmentation does that to you.

That said, says a lot for this one that i haven't seen much of it given a pass here. My hat's off to Mr. Bougo for handling the careless few I have encountered far more eloquently than i am capable of.

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06-16-2012, 05:33 PM (This post was last modified: 06-16-2012 05:34 PM by edh.)
Post: #11
RE: Need to check
(06-16-2012 04:38 PM)rocknroll237 Wrote:  'Public sector workers who go on strike should be shot'. These are blatantly stupid statements but they can't be taken as something that offensive. Look at Jeremy Clarkson. He insults practically everyone and his statements are almost always way OTT! Only idiots take offence at these statements and bother writing in to Top Gear to complain.
That particular one was taken out of context. He was saying that in reference to TV programs having to be fair and represent all views, then saying that that was his view, not a serious threat of course.

Computer based areas of the Internet do have more problem interactions than would exist in mainstream society. More young people who are perhaps not so socially experienced. Men, who tend to be rasher and less forgiving, outbalancing women. More techy people perhaps with not so good social skills as technical skills.

There is an area of psychology dedicated to 'Emotional Intelligence', measured by EQ (emotional quotient) which is equivalent to IQ. You would find a below average EQ on Internet forums in general. It is an area that you can improve in through life if anything easier than IQ. I would encourage everyone to read up on this as it can help career and relationship wise and I'm sure could reduce the amount of childish comments on the Internet too.

I'm at least a reasonably tolerable person to be around - Narcopic
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06-16-2012, 05:37 PM (This post was last modified: 06-16-2012 05:38 PM by rafallus.)
Post: #12
RE: Need to check
Quote:Wikipedia says: 'In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response.'

But it does go on to say: 'Early incidences of trolling were considered to be the same as flaming, but this has changed with modern usage by the news media to refer to the creation of any content that targets another person.'

I suppose it varies.

To me, trolling is saying things either to annoy people or to get a response (emotional or otherwise). Trolling can be harmless and hurtful imo.

Hmmm. So if I post valid/logical opinion, albeit highly unpopular or unliked by some one, that may very well constitute as trolling.

BTW. I personally thought ideas about nex making 100+ dmg and refire rate were indeed trolling. Hell, me bringing it up here might very well be it too.
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06-16-2012, 05:41 PM
Post: #13
RE: Need to check
That guy in the video was incredibly annoying.

I don't know the situation with this woman, but I do know that some places will have malicious trolls. Youtube and 4chan are prime examples. Anyone who goes to either of those sites without a thick skin does not need to be there. You can try to set every troll straight, or you can just accept that it's not going to stop trolling and you just need to ignore them. Arguing with a troll is illogical to begin with because trolls don't care about the debate, they just want to ruffle feathers and laugh at the people they've provoked. The only way to really get to a troll is to make their little joke unsatisfying for them, usually by having it deleted and issuing a ban

Of course, I'm not talking about these forums, just sites that are to far gone to care about. The Xonotic community is pretty great.
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06-16-2012, 05:41 PM (This post was last modified: 06-16-2012 05:45 PM by rocknroll237.)
Post: #14
RE: Need to check
Quote:So if I post valid/logical opinion, albeit highly unpopular or unliked by some one, that may very well constitute as trolling.

I suppose you could be considered a troll if you were to do something like deny the holocaust and give evidence to say why you believe it never happened.

Quote:That guy in the video was incredibly annoying.

I know. Anyway, I thought women were too busy making sandwiches in the kitchen to be playing games?

Quote:Arguing with a troll is illogical to begin with because trolls don't care about the debate

Not necessarily. I mean, look at the example I used in my earlier post. There was no harm in talking to him and I'd say that he was being a bit of a troll with a nick like that.

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06-16-2012, 05:49 PM (This post was last modified: 06-16-2012 05:51 PM by W4RP1G.)
Post: #15
RE: Need to check
(06-16-2012 05:41 PM)rocknroll237 Wrote:  I mean, look at the example I used in my earlier post. There was no harm in talking to him and I'd say that he was being a bit of a troll with a nick like that.
I saw your example, but I don't know the whole situation behind it so I can't draw a proper conclusion.

In my eyes, a troll is someone who says something solely for the purpose of evoking a reaction. If someone says something for the purpose of debate, they are not trolling, no matter how unpopular their opinion is. This is something that annoys me in forums, people are dismissed as a troll if their opinion is unpopular, even if they are trying to debate their point.
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06-16-2012, 06:15 PM
Post: #16
RE: Need to check
I think the problem is that it's not just the troll that ends up looking bad, but it reflects badly on the community for allowing to slide. Imagine the reputation this community would have in the FOSS community if we let trolling comments sit. That's why youtube and 4chan are what they are. In the case of the woman referred to in the video, she had her wikipedia pages vandalized, her kickstarter page filled with the stuff, there was even a petition at one point to take her project down from kickstarter.

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06-17-2012, 02:59 AM
Post: #17
RE: Need to check
(06-16-2012 05:13 PM)rocknroll237 Wrote:  If a person is trolling for laughs and they tell everyone that they are are only playing and they stop as soon as anyone makes it know that they are offended, then I see nothing wrong with that.

I don't like politically correct people who pick up on every little insult or statement and start pointing their fingers and accusing people of being 'racist' or 'sexist'.

This is a true story. While on a server, this guy had the 'n word' in his nick. I said that's harsh. He said he was black and that it was just a joke. I suggested that he change his nick and (IIRC) he did. I even had a little racist joke myself. Nobody got shirty and that was the end of that. Some 'politically correct' person would have called me racist for what I said, but I made sure that I knew the context and made it clear that I was only making a harmless joke. Does anyone want to hear it? Big Grin

I agree that being overly PC is complicated and unnecessary. I disagree with you on the subject of speaking out, though. There are some discriminating insults that practically nobody speaks out against (transphobia comes to mind), and if I were to let it slide I would feel like I'm condoning hate speech. You have to see these situations as an opportunity to educate people -- if not the troll itself, at least the people who witness the trolling. A "good" 'politically correct' advocate should not react the way you imagined in your anecdote, at least not before treating the insulting person as an intelligent being.

It's not okay to use hate speech for laughs, and you should not expect to be forgiven if you stop on demand. Perhaps you don't have to deal with prejudice every day, but I guess you can imagine that the people who do don't really see any fun in "trolling for laughs", even if the troll stops when asked to. Besides, it promotes a culture of intolerance by banalizing discrimination. See how kids call things "gay" because their friends do the same and nobody tells them why it's wrong.

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06-17-2012, 03:09 AM (This post was last modified: 06-17-2012 03:17 AM by PinkRobot.)
Post: #18
RE: Need to check
Let's take it one step further. A lot of webmasters cherrish trolls. That would NEVER ban them, except when they might get the webmasters themselves into legal trouble. I could name a couple of news sites in my country that would not be so popular without trolls. People presenting radical opinions as fact are a great way to convince more people to sign up and give their own 'opinion'. That becomes a nice home for more trolls and before you know it, page hits and advertisement revenue are booming.

Blah, opinions... what we call an opinion these days is just the first thought that comes into the ill informed person's head and makes its way into a YouTube comment box. Let's ban having an opinion, then who dares to still speak out is someone I'd be willing to listen to! Tongue

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