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+--- Thread: Wrong information about Xonotic (/showthread.php?tid=1272)
Wrong information about Xonotic - rainerzufalldererste - 11-28-2010
http://www.holarse-linuxgaming.de/wiki/xonotic[german]
XONOTIC IS NOT NEXUIZ!!!
RE: WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?????? - dfsp_spirit - 11-28-2010
This doesn't suprise me tbh. You really need a link on the main page that either explains how to install Xonotic or at least explains that the game in not available without a complicated installation process atm. A link to a forum post will do, just have something like "The Game => Getting Xonotic". I mean what do you think 95% of the people do when they click on the GIT link? Right, close the browser tab. If they are motivated they try google, find stuff about Nexuiz and an easy installation link for that.
RE: WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?????? - Minkovsky - 11-28-2010
Crap?
RE: WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?????? - Akari - 11-28-2010
(11-28-2010, 07:35 AM)rainerzufalldererste Wrote: XONOTIC IS NOT NEXUIZ!!!
That's what I don't like about Xonotic the most.
RE: [Weird Topictitle] - Debugger - 11-28-2010
?
I dont get what this topic could be for.
There are maybe some faults but keep in mind that we arent even in beta...
Akari: yea :/
RE: WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?????? - BARTUC - 11-28-2010
There are a lot of mistakes inside that wiki ... btw Xonotic is a continuance of Nexuiz and there are no pubblic release for the new fps so ... I didnt feel like saying they made a big mistake.
RE: WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?????? - Lee_Stricklin - 11-28-2010
(11-28-2010, 09:43 AM)Akari Wrote:(11-28-2010, 07:35 AM)rainerzufalldererste Wrote: XONOTIC IS NOT NEXUIZ!!!
That's what I don't like about Xonotic the most.
Xonotic is the successor to Nexuiz and if your talking about the balance direction that's in the git then I absolutely agree with you.
RE: Wrong information about Xonotic - rainerzufalldererste - 11-28-2010
Who changed the Title of the Topic
[This post was last modified: Today 19:24 by C.Brutail] xD
RE: WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?????? - ThePWTULN - 11-28-2010
(11-28-2010, 09:43 AM)Akari Wrote:(11-28-2010, 07:35 AM)rainerzufalldererste Wrote: XONOTIC IS NOT NEXUIZ!!!
That's what I don't like about Xonotic the most.
Yes, I never understood why Xonotic had to be so radically different either.
RE: Wrong information about Xonotic - Liquid Sin - 11-28-2010
(11-28-2010, 06:03 PM)ThePWTULN Wrote:(11-28-2010, 09:43 AM)Akari Wrote:(11-28-2010, 07:35 AM)rainerzufalldererste Wrote: XONOTIC IS NOT NEXUIZ!!!
That's what I don't like about Xonotic the most.
Yes, I never understood why Xonotic had to be so radically different either.
Agreed (continues to beat dead horse)
RE: Wrong information about Xonotic - master[mind] - 11-29-2010
(11-28-2010, 11:53 PM)Liquid Sin Wrote:(11-28-2010, 06:03 PM)ThePWTULN Wrote:(11-28-2010, 09:43 AM)Akari Wrote:(11-28-2010, 07:35 AM)rainerzufalldererste Wrote: XONOTIC IS NOT NEXUIZ!!!
That's what I don't like about Xonotic the most.
Yes, I never understood why Xonotic had to be so radically different either.
Agreed (continues to beat dead horse)
Hmmmmm, I played the balance, I also watched a match from two perspectives to understand the differences. Yes, it is different. Yes, it seems better. It's different and that is the biggest thing I've seen complained about. It seems much more balanced. I'm not kidding. Any of the weapons can kill just as quickly as another. I do feel that combos have been muted though, but the only resolution for this is to unbalance the weapons.
RE: WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?????? - BARTUC - 11-29-2010
(11-28-2010, 06:03 PM)ThePWTULN Wrote: Yes, I never understood why Xonotic had to be so radically different either.
Quote
RE: Wrong information about Xonotic - kojn^ - 11-30-2010
(11-29-2010, 12:22 AM)master[mind] Wrote:(11-28-2010, 11:53 PM)Liquid Sin Wrote:(11-28-2010, 06:03 PM)ThePWTULN Wrote:(11-28-2010, 09:43 AM)Akari Wrote:(11-28-2010, 07:35 AM)rainerzufalldererste Wrote: XONOTIC IS NOT NEXUIZ!!!
That's what I don't like about Xonotic the most.
Yes, I never understood why Xonotic had to be so radically different either.
Agreed (continues to beat dead horse)
Hmmmmm, I played the balance, I also watched a match from two perspectives to understand the differences. Yes, it is different. Yes, it seems better. It's different and that is the biggest thing I've seen complained about. It seems much more balanced. I'm not kidding. Any of the weapons can kill just as quickly as another. I do feel that combos have been muted though, but the only resolution for this is to unbalance the weapons.
Thanks for taking some time to giving it a go and looking from a different perspective.
Ok well since some people, don't understand why some of the current changes were done as quoted. I've wrote a bit of an essay here explaining why (balancefruit). This is not to turn the thread into a debate, but just to explain the changes, that is all.
Yes it is different, but in most cases it seems a lack of giving it a reasonable amount of playingtime, things have been changed to improve the overall level of the game..anyone with a clue knew that nexuiz was dying a stale-death - the dimishing amount of players, the game needed a revamp/revitilasation and even if the fork was not expected, it surely has been a godsend. Nexuiz always had a small player base, and this has been from the start, mainly because of the quality of the first releases that were quite poor.
Some people won't like what's currently been done, I'm sure of this, but this would happen regardless of any changes someone is always going to dislike something, and without this new revamping the community and playerbase would surely continue to slowly be getting smaller. The 'balance' people speak of (which is the wrong word to use), is to do with weapon's and movement not the entire game.
The reason FrutieX set to work on changes was because of a lot of complaints/dislikes on these aspects from early versions of nexuiz which were never changed and alienated a huge amount of potential playerbase which always was the balance of the weapons and the clumsy movement and there were a lot of comments that I myself saw that people said the game continually get's improved except the most important aspect of all..they never 'fix' the gameplay or movement. A lot of time has been invested into the reasonings why, and a lot of time testing this stuff, months of work now, and people are getting used to it, some liked it straight off, some changes had to be made to help to compromise with the majority (laser for example, which has been changed and is now nicely working, and no more threads). Some changes are still being made, but it is becoming closer to be coming complete..yet a few just want to throw all of this work away yet want a beta.
Why not start looking forward to some fresh changes.
RE: Wrong information about Xonotic - FruitieX - 11-30-2010
This post ^.
Read it all of you who turn 50% of the threads into balance threads.
We can at least give it a shot with a new balance, and try to attract the players who would otherwise think "ah, Nexuiz with another name, the gameplay back then was ridiculous: it has got to still suck *close tab*". If they would instead have heard that Xonotic is a little rethink of Nexuiz, there might be chances they want to at least try it again.
I fully agree that staying with the old balance as the default would mean we only get a slowly diminishing community. It has several annoying things about it that start to get more obvious the better you get: the hard to control physics, your own rockets exploding in front of your face if they were damaged enough, insane stacking ability, potentially game breaking forces on weapons, overlapping weapon functions etc. They all contribute to a feeling of randomness in the game, which is BAD for players that are over a certain level of skill. And that's where all players eventually end up if they keep on playing.
Hardcore fans of the Nexuiz balance can still play it on special Xonotic servers, which, as it seems, will exist for sure. But isn't it a better idea to let new players see a newer, rethought version of that old balance? If it turns out to be a bad, generally disliked balance, there is no problem switching/fixing the balance in later releases. But if the first beta release still has the OLD Nexuiz balance, we'll sure be stuck with it for all eternity.
So far though in polls conducted, it seems that the majority of the community supports the current balance over the others. Additionally, the majority of the pickup community (non-public players, much better for testing the fine details of a balance) seems to prefer the current balance as well. Maybe the core team will upvote it too now that all the compromises between balanceXonotic and balancetZork have been made. (I know tZork won't, because he demands the old electro, which I will not switch back to no matter what. It was a weaker rocketlauncher and/or spamweapon, overlapping weapon features == bad)
RE: Wrong information about Xonotic - Mirio - 11-30-2010
(11-30-2010, 08:07 AM)FruitieX Wrote: So far though in polls conducted, it seems that the majority of the community supports the current balance over the others.
Do you mean the poll in the balancefruit topic? Then this is not sooo correct.
Technically 971 members could vote so:
2,3% Yes votes (22)
1,2% No votes (12)
96,5% Abstentions (937)
PS: This is the off topic section, so don't take it too serious.
Though I think that 34 votes are a bit poor and I guess more than 34 users post in this topic. :/
RE: Wrong information about Xonotic - ThePWTULN - 11-30-2010
(11-30-2010, 07:53 AM)kojn^ Wrote: Thanks for taking some time to giving it a go and looking from a different perspective.
Ok well since some people, don't understand why some of the current changes were done as quoted. I've wrote a bit of an essay here explaining why (balancefruit). This is not to turn the thread into a debate, but just to explain the changes, that is all.
Yes it is different, but in most cases it seems a lack of giving it a reasonable amount of playingtime, things have been changed to improve the overall level of the game..anyone with a clue knew that nexuiz was dying a stale-death - the dimishing amount of players, the game needed a revamp/revitilasation and even if the fork was not expected, it surely has been a godsend. Nexuiz always had a small player base, and this has been from the start, mainly because of the quality of the first releases that were quite poor.
Some people won't like what's currently been done, I'm sure of this, but this would happen regardless of any changes someone is always going to dislike something, and without this new revamping the community and playerbase would surely continue to slowly be getting smaller. The 'balance' people speak of (which is the wrong word to use), is to do with weapon's and movement not the entire game.
The reason FrutieX set to work on changes was because of a lot of complaints/dislikes on these aspects from early versions of nexuiz which were never changed and alienated a huge amount of potential playerbase which always was the balance of the weapons and the clumsy movement and there were a lot of comments that I myself saw that people said the game continually get's improved except the most important aspect of all..they never 'fix' the gameplay or movement. A lot of time has been invested into the reasonings why, and a lot of time testing this stuff, months of work now, and people are getting used to it, some liked it straight off, some changes had to be made to help to compromise with the majority (laser for example, which has been changed and is now nicely working, and no more threads). Some changes are still being made, but it is becoming closer to be coming complete..yet a few just want to throw all of this work away yet want a beta.
Why not start looking forward to some fresh changes.
Thanks for clearing some stuff up, kojn.
But the thing that I don't like is not the weapon balance (I'm fine with that), but rather the physics. Personally I prefer to have some degree of physical realism in the games I play, and I was fine with the xonotic physics until I saw C.Brutail's trick jump video. Having that much air control is a bit too much, isn't it?
RE: Wrong information about Xonotic - Lee_Stricklin - 11-30-2010
I can't speak for everyone out there, but I did in fact give balanceFruit and Fruitphys a chance. I've even gone as far as spending a week completely away from first person shooters all together to clear my head and keep my mind open and then played six hours straight. I can honestly say there is quite a few things wrong. A few problems I see is this:
1 Bunny hopping NON STOP is REQUIRED due to the awkward transition from running and the low running speed. You are immobilized unless you do this, even in spots where you should be running.
2 Fast paced feel of Nexuiz and general sense of hell you get from being shot at is gone, due to lower game speed and lower fire rates
3 Maps broken due to physics, bye bye old favorites from Nexuiz
4 Un-welcomed fall damage and awkward caps that are supposed to discourage stacking but unfortunately discourage me from exploring maps
5 "Bonus" weapons, though this became less of a problem after the introduction of Red Planet, still would like to see the HLAC fixed though
6 Treating the Nex like a super weapon, when it was never intended to be one
7 Glitchy lighting gun function that feels awkward (setting off combos really feels whack with this thing), especially to Nexuiz veterans
8 Irritating weapons, again because of the fire rates
9 Alienates Nexuiz players which will be a problem because the game is primarily targeted at that crowd
Feel free to say stuff about my balance and physics. You can try them out after an update and by typing these lines into your console before starting a game (don't try it in campaign though, doesn't work for some reason):
exec balanceLeeStricklin.cfg
exec physicsLeeStricklin-ModdedFruit.cfg
RE: Wrong information about Xonotic - kojn^ - 11-30-2010
Your welcome.
As for the physics, I guess it's personal preference as you put in your post, you like a degree of realism in the game's you play (physics wise).
The change in physics was to make the game accessible to nexuiz players, but also more accessible to player's from other games and to help make sure that the problems that these player's had with the movement being cumbersome and very hard to control, a lot of the time's you could bump into things in nexuiz and it was not very smooth to get up ramps and such.
Since strafe-jumping the Quake way is quite hard for new player's to learn, FrutieX (and myself) after talking to divVerent tried to come up with a way that would allow the movement to be easy to use for existing nexuiz players (forward hopping), combined with better aircontrol & turning like warsow/CPM/painkiller to create a smooth physics set that would solve the problem of people saying the movement was bad, and also to create a better to use, smoother, set of physics. This make's the movement easier for a wider group of player's from these type of backgrounds to get into the game, as well as being different to strafejumping, but still just as fun to use but without as steep learning curve.
I would say the movement is easier to learn then nexuiz's but it still requires a degree of skill to master, however it is a lot more smoother and less cumbersome. I can see what you mean about the aircontrol, but it's part of the physics and it's what allows for such smooth turning when moving around maps/corners, I guess it's personal preference at the end of the day, personally I like it and I know some will dislike it at first, I know some already have and I know some who now like it, whilst I know some people will scream blue murder at it, but at the end of the day there's tried to be a tradeoff between the current small community and appealing to new players and to try and solve the issues that were putting so many potential player's off from before.
The content (quality wise) of Xonotic is 100x better then the first release of nexuiz already so I can see it attracting new player's without a doubt or struggle, but it can not live off the old nexuiz name to doing this as FrutieX said, otherwise it will be nexuiz wrapped up in better looking graphics and maps only.
Anyway, that's both the weapons and physics changes explained, hope this has helped answer the reasons 'why'.
RE: Wrong information about Xonotic - FruitieX - 11-30-2010
(11-30-2010, 09:32 AM)Mirio Wrote: Do you mean the poll in the balancefruit topic? Then this is not sooo correct.
Technically 971 members could vote so:
2,3% Yes votes (22)
1,2% No votes (12)
96,5% Abstentions (937)
PS: This is the off topic section, so don't take it too serious.
Okay, I'll change my wording there: The majority of the community that cares.
How else can we poll the players in an unreleased game? Suggestions welcome, I know as a fact that I would not be the only developer wanting to know this.
(11-30-2010, 03:27 PM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: 1 Bunny hopping NON STOP is REQUIRED due to the awkward transition from running and the low running speed. You are immobilized unless you do this, even in spots where you should be running.Don't play maps of insane size. Problem solved.
(11-30-2010, 03:27 PM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: 2 Fast paced feel of Nexuiz and general sense of hell you get from being shot at is gone, due to lower game speed and lower fire ratesLies and slander, the game is not slower in any way. If it is, you're doing it wrong.
(11-30-2010, 03:27 PM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: 3 Maps broken due to physics, bye bye old favorites from NexuizMaps dumped due to them being of low visual quality, and basically starting from scratch with them. Is this news? I don't see how the physics breaks anything though, all the Nexuiz maps I've tested work more or less perfect, some even better.
(11-30-2010, 03:27 PM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: 4 Un-welcomed fall damage and awkward caps that are supposed to discourage stacking but unfortunately discourage me from exploring mapsDiscourage you from ... what??? How are those even related, you explore a map in it's entirety in the first minutes of playing it until you know it and can start playing somewhat seriously on it.
(11-30-2010, 03:27 PM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: 5 "Bonus" weapons, though this became less of a problem after the introduction of Red Planet, still would like to see the HLAC fixed thoughAll weapons are well balanced vs each other.
(11-30-2010, 03:27 PM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: 6 Treating the Nex like a super weapon, when it was never intended to be oneTreating it as a super weapon by nerfing it? :-P
(11-30-2010, 03:27 PM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: 7 Glitchy lighting gun function that feels awkward (setting off combos really feels whack with this thing), especially to Nexuiz veteransHow exactly is it glitchy? I can see one glitch, when you keep firing and land without jumping, but this happens with every weapon/shotorigin, it is just the most obvious on the continuous stream of lightning. This bob bug is not caused by me. The fix is either removing it, or coding CSQC players so we actually know the shotorigin.
(11-30-2010, 03:27 PM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: 8 Irritating weapons, again because of the fire ratesThe only weapons that I can think of right now with longer fire rates are the shotgun and the camping rifle. Increasing the fire rate on the shotgun removes a LOT of the spammy/random feeling that Nexuiz had. It's the weapon you spawn with after all. It also allows to make it more powerful, and makes more sense with the melee than a quick fire mode would (you don't get a feeling of "hey why can't i shoot quicker after the whack animation, it's like a rapid fire smg anyway!")
On the camping rifle the increased fire rate just makes sense, it puts you in deep shit if you don't make sure the area around you is actually clean of enemies before sniping away. It makes it a little more useless/risky to use in close combat than it was, and that only makes sense on a *camping* rifle. You can still pull off some frags in close combat, and when you do it's quite rewarding
(11-30-2010, 03:27 PM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: 9 Alienates Nexuiz players which will be a problem because the game is primarily targeted at that crowdYup, it has never really been targeted towards expanding, which explains the playercounts we've seen.
(11-30-2010, 03:27 PM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: (don't try it in campaign though, doesn't work for some reason)Campaign forces default cvars to prevent cheating, obviously.
RE: Wrong information about Xonotic - kojn^ - 11-30-2010
Ok, please let's not turn this into a debate guys, or we'll go round in circles and Mirio and I will get annoyed again
I simply just wanted to post the reasonings behind why.
Lee, no offence, but in every thread I seem to explain the changes or it's something to do with balancefruit you are constantly saying 'try my balance, exec XXX', it feels like thread Hi-Jacking. I mean, I don't go in your thread/s and posts saying 'Launch Xonotic and try out default/balancefruit' instead constantly. If you want people to try your stuff fair enough but go out of your way to do it/advertise it please by IRC or on your own threads. Because otherwise it starts to get into silly debate's like this, and it seems to be happening in threads when there is no need too, I already stated I posted the replies purely for explanation for the direction of the changes that people didn't understand why.
RE: Wrong information about Xonotic - Lee_Stricklin - 11-30-2010
1 What's wrong with large maps? Also, it doesn't just effect large maps, but also small maps.
2 18MPH running speed and harder to move around via bunny hopping = slower.
3 Still a bad idea to break maps, someone may want to remake them some day and many servers will probably want to host some old favorites.
4 Because health and armor is harder to stack, I have less incentive to scour the maps for it unless I'm in need of it and will try to pick a spot where I can grab easy kills.
5 Sure they are...
6 Your nerfing it wrong, the nex is primarily a long range precision weapon. Your balancing it as an all around weapon that is excessively powerful.
7 That's exactly what I was talking about and the lightning gun doesn't feel right for setting off combos. It feels REALLY weird.
8 IRRITATING AS HELL TO USE. Especially for a starter weapon that is meant to serve as Xonotic's enforcer.
9 So your looking to grab a handful of new players at the expense of pissing off the crowd that is most excited about this game?
(11-30-2010, 04:30 PM)kojn^ Wrote: Ok, please let's not turn this into a debate guys, or we'll go round in circles and Mirio and I will get annoyed again
I simply just wanted to post the reasonings behind why.
Lee, no offence, but in every thread I seem to explain the changes or it's something to do with balancefruit you are constantly saying 'try my balance, exec XXX', it feels like thread Hi-Jacking. I mean, I don't go in your thread/s and posts saying 'Launch Xonotic and try out default/balancefruit' instead constantly. If you want people to try your stuff fair enough but go out of your way to do it/advertise it please by IRC or on your own threads. Because otherwise it starts to get into silly debate's like this, and it seems to be happening in threads when there is no need too, I already stated I posted the replies purely for explanation for the direction of the changes that people didn't understand why.
I typically post whenever someone complains about balancefruit to let them know that balancefruit isn't the ONLY balance out there, and grab some attention while I can since no one really seems to given my settings much of a chance, especially with the way Fruitiex has grabbed all the attention. I can see how that is annoying though.
RE: Wrong information about Xonotic - Liquid Sin - 11-30-2010
I get it a lot of people downloaded Nexuiz yet the player base remained small so how would one go about attracting more players? by making changes with a little feedback note the word little here "96,5% Abstentions 937"
(11-30-2010, 09:32 AM)Mirio Wrote: Do you mean the poll in the balancefruit topic? Then this is not sooo correct.
Technically 971 members could vote so:
2,3% Yes votes (22)
1,2% No votes (12)
96,5% Abstentions (937)
PS: This is the off topic section, so don't take it too serious.
I guess its better than no feedback and this is just one poll but you get the idea. Now when beta is released I do hope more players try it and hopefully give feedback even though this might only come in the form of player count but I don't see Xonotic as being very appealing of course i'm biased since I come from the small Nexuiz player base so wtf do I know? I know I liked something a lot of people didn't apparently and when I start playing Xonotic after some Nexuiz servers get switched it will be on a server with a Nexuiz like cfg
RE: Wrong information about Xonotic - FruitieX - 11-30-2010
(11-30-2010, 04:40 PM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: 3 Still a bad idea to break maps, someone may want to remake them
Example?
(11-30-2010, 04:40 PM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: the nex is primarily a long range precision weapon.
This is what the sniper rifle is for. The Nex is more of a combat rifle.
(11-30-2010, 04:40 PM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: 9 So your looking to grab a handful of new players at the expense of pissing off the crowd that is most excited about this game?
So far, from the part of the community that cares, it seems that the majority won't be pissed off.
RE: Wrong information about Xonotic - Mirio - 11-30-2010
(11-30-2010, 04:40 PM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: 2 18MPH running speed and harder to move around via bunny hopping = slower.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SZgyP-0C0Q
Its easier to move, just needs some practise (like every new game). Also "non stop bunny hopping" is "required" in Nexuiz too, unless you want to be slow as hell.
And if mappers want to remake a Nexuiz map they have to adapt it to Xonotic, uhhh :O .
I can only repeat it: Xonotic _is not_ Nexuiz.
This is almost like if you would start to play Halo and complain "Uh but this is not like CoD! I want it like that." - Ridiculous.
I agree with kojn that this "exec XXX" is more like spam. Maybe put it into your signature.
THIS is the topic here btw:
(11-28-2010, 07:35 AM)rainerzufalldererste Wrote: http://www.holarse-linuxgaming.de/wiki/xonotic[german]
XONOTIC IS NOT NEXUIZ!!!
I suggest to discuss in IRC or in the balancefruit topic.
RE: Wrong information about Xonotic - Halogene - 12-01-2010
Oh I only now found out that this is a balance thread too - the topic was kinda irritating.
Anyhow, I actually like where the FruitieX balance is heading, I could imagine a bit more power for lasering off walls to gain horizontal speed would be good, but I'll learn to move fast without that some time as well. I also will miss the electro combo that I liked very much, but then there are so many new cool things to do (like more powerful ramp jumps, very sharp turns while bunnyhopping, nex charging/cooling by moving fast...), maybe you can't keep all of the old fun if you do some new fun stuff.
I really think we should concentrate on one physics set and balance set and, by testing and providing feedback, improve it to a status where most of the participants agree that it could be used for the game. If we'd have three directions to go it would be much more confusing.
...what's the balance discussion got to do with the topic? o.O