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+--- Thread: [POLL] g_spawn_furthest - Random or always furthest? (/showthread.php?tid=5981)
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[POLL] g_spawn_furthest - Random or always furthest? - Mario - 01-13-2016
Greetings, duelers!
A dilemma has come up in the duel world; We have some servers with the g_spawn_furthest cvar set to 1 (always selecting the furthest spawn point), and some with it set to 0.5 (50% furthest, 50% completely random spawn point).
This change may seem small, but it affects duels in a big way, as spawn point prediction is a popular way to stay on top.
Consistency is important for competitive matches, so we're opening this poll to decide the default setting for all the duel servers.
Good luck and may the best vote win!
RE: [POLL] g_spawn_furthest - Random or always furthest? - Mirio - 01-13-2016
For reference:
g_spawn_furthest 1.0 is currently used in #xonotic.pickup servers (WTWRP, pacman)
g_spawn_furthest 0.5 is currently used on the [HUB] servers
RE: [POLL] g_spawn_furthest - Random or always furthest? - Diomedes - 01-13-2016
I would add "Random spawn point (g_spawn_furthest 0.0)" and change the 0.5 option to semi-random.
Edit: To elaborate a bit further: Spawn killing is a duel skill which requires you to know the spawns and utilise them to get an easy kill. The g_spawn_furthest option was introduced to prevent too much spawn fragging because it is usually considered an inferior skill and also it is not really enjoyable for the player who gets spawn-killed.
The problem with this setting is that it actually does the opposite, it makes the spawns predictable. Predictability means that the dominating player can get more spawn kills; he knows where his enemy will likely spawn and exploits this by moving to a position that triggers the spawn at a location he wants.
Thus I think that the best way would be to remove predictability at all which will make spawns purely luck based.
RE: [POLL] g_spawn_furthest - Random or always furthest? - Mario - 01-13-2016
Completely random wouldn't be recommended, as it would be more likely for the player to spawn right next to the enemy that just killed them.
RE: [POLL] g_spawn_furthest - Random or always furthest? - thimo - 01-13-2016
Out of these 2 possibilities, 0.5, no doubt. Second one is garbage, doesnt work anywhere else than on paper. Voted
RE: [POLL] g_spawn_furthest - Random or always furthest? - Islinn - 01-13-2016
(01-13-2016, 10:37 AM)Mario Wrote: Completely random wouldn't be recommended, as it would be more likely for the player to spawn right next to the enemy that just killed them.
Which is pure shit.
1.0 it is. 0.5 sucks aswell.
RE: [POLL] g_spawn_furthest - Random or always furthest? - Diomedes - 01-13-2016
(01-13-2016, 10:37 AM)Mario Wrote: Completely random wouldn't be recommended, as it would be more likely for the player to spawn right next to the enemy that just killed them.
You should consider two things:
1. Spawning next to the player who just killed you is not necessarily a bad thing, if he is very low on health your chances are equal or better to get the next frag.
2. Having predictability in the spawn process means that the dominating player can choose the spawn location which means that he has a huge advantage over the killed player since the latter has only laser and shotgun while the former may have long range weapons as the nex.
RE: [POLL] g_spawn_furthest - Random or always furthest? - SpiKe - 01-13-2016
I'm a bit uncertain about this, but I ended up voting for 1.0.
Some argument in favor of 0.5 though:
it could be useful for the guy who got killed... if you damaged your opponent a lot and spawn close enough to him, you have a chance to finish him (but he also has a chance to score a double frag... :p)
EDIT: changed my vote to 0.5. You guys have good arguments
RE: [POLL] g_spawn_furthest - Random or always furthest? - SPLAT - 01-13-2016
People only bitch about 1.0 because they play hub all the time. Yes it can get a little ridiculous at times on that map. But having played plenty of matches on 1.0 recently it's not a problem on other maps and it is more fair imo.
RE: [POLL] g_spawn_furthest - Random or always furthest? - kojn^ - 01-13-2016
If you set it to 1.0, eventually someone will work out how to force certain spawns on several maps, all the time whenever there in a certain position.
How do I know this? Because it's exactly what I would do!
RE: [POLL] g_spawn_furthest - Random or always furthest? - Diomedes - 01-13-2016
(01-13-2016, 02:43 PM)kojn^ Wrote: If you set it to 1.0, eventually someone will work out how to force certain spawns on several maps, all the time whenever there in a certain position.
How do I know this? Because it's exactly what I would do!
Yeah, and that's exactly what good players do. It does not work on hub only, it works on a lot of other maps, too, Stormkeep for example. hub is just the most rediculous map because you can get fragged 10 times in a row without even being able to move.
RE: [POLL] g_spawn_furthest - Random or always furthest? - Mirio - 01-13-2016
> Stupid spawnkilling on Hub
"Oh but there is a version that prevents it"
> Wtf we want to spawnkill
Aerowalk players in a nutshell.
RE: [POLL] g_spawn_furthest - Random or always furthest? - Diomedes - 01-13-2016
(01-13-2016, 02:54 PM)Mirio Wrote: > Stupid spawnkilling on Hub
"Oh but there is a version that prevents it"
> Wtf we want to spawnkill
Aerowalk players in a nutshell.
Is that related to any reply in this thread?
RE: [POLL] g_spawn_furthest - Random or always furthest? - Ploplo - 01-13-2016
Well, might as well give my thoughts on spawnkilling in general instead of just voting.
While i've played a decent amount of Arena-FPS before, Xon is the first one where i've invested somewhat more time in the game and community, and where i actually started to play duels.
And i really love the game overall, i love the weapons, the maps, the speed and how the game is played. But there's one thing i don't like, which mostly is relevant for duels (it happens sometimes in TDM but definitely less), it's the spawnkills.
Now it's not that horrible that it makes me dislike the rest, but it's that little annoying thing that happens in duels that makes it a bit worse overall. (and is frustrating too i guess)
Sure, it is its own skill, and it requires knowing where to be to have an opportunity to do it, then having the timing with weapons to execute it good enough that the opponent has no answer to survive. And it is kind of an "expected" part of some arena FPS games in general. Still, it feels like a bad mechanic, more based on abuse of the spawn system than anything.
More than "feeling bad" though, to me the problem is that it's heavily reliant on luck. Because it entirely depends on the enemy spawn, and that is more or less random (even in 1.0 setting). You can set it up correctly but have the spawn somewhere else. Or like the worst case i got once against smile, spawn 3 times in a row in the same place across the map and him getting 3 free frags (not that i would have beaten smile anyway though xD)
Such spawns can potentially greatly impact the evolution of a match, and even might impact who wins on close duels.
So to me, changes like the ability to delay the spawn are more important, because they allow some kind of counterplay (however small) to avoid dieing immediatly. Whereas in general spawnkills is a mechanic where only the spawnkiller's skill plays a role. Changing the potential appearances of spawns might lessen 100% kills, but as a trade you can get lucky really close spawns that result in the same and are even easier to abuse.
To end this too long wall of text, if i have to make a choice here, i'd go for 1.0 over 0.5. In a way it helps spawnkills in how you can manipulate the spawns... but i'd rather someone get a kill cause he has the skill of abusing a game mechanic, rather than plain old luck. That's the least worst in my opinion.
Plus, it's not like spawnkills happen easily all the time. On most map you can't manipulate it that easily with 1.0, while 0.5 would allow lucky close spawns to abuse.
Yes you have maps like hub where 1.0 results in something exaggerated, and the spawnrape is rather easy to set up. But not too many maps seem to be like that to me (downer and SK to some degree, and SK is because of warpzone). But of course a really large part of duels are played on hub (if not most?), so it gives that impression that spawnkills happen a lot, even to me. But if it's mostly hub that's that bad, maybe it says more about hub than the whole respawning system.
RE: [POLL] g_spawn_furthest - Random or always furthest? - boomboom - 01-13-2016
My personal preference would be to spawn at random at one of the 3 farthest points fromthe opponent. It still gives some predictability but it doesn't guarantee 100% spawnkill chance.
RE: [POLL] g_spawn_furthest - Random or always furthest? - SPLAT - 01-13-2016
Btw the second poll choice can be confusing. Its not 'random spawns', its 50% furthest away, 50% random (as I'm sure you well know. just for clarification for other players who may not know.)
RE: [POLL] g_spawn_furthest - Random or always furthest? - Mario - 01-14-2016
Another thing that should be noted is, players in duel have the ability to not re-spawn for up to 5 seconds after being killed (but can within 2 seconds).
This mechanic was introduced only recently to the stock duel configuration, but has been used on the HUB duel servers since around 0.8.
RE: [POLL] g_spawn_furthest - Random or always furthest? - Smilecythe - 01-14-2016
There should be a third option: Don't spawn twice in same place, otherwise random. Out from the two choices I prefer 0.5 though.
RE: [POLL] g_spawn_furthest - Random or always furthest? - Ploplo - 01-14-2016
(01-14-2016, 09:04 AM)Smilecythe Wrote: Don't spawn twice in same place,
Actually, that does sound like a good idea, regardless of the spawn_furthest setting. (that is, as long as there are at least 3-4 spawn options at all time)
RE: [POLL] g_spawn_furthest - Random or always furthest? - kojn^ - 01-14-2016
Surprised so many have voted for 1.0 so far. Thimo, Smilecythe you clearly aren't raping hard enough in duel!!
RE: [POLL] g_spawn_furthest - Random or always furthest? - Smilecythe - 01-15-2016
My opinion in a nutshell:
1.0 sucks for small maps.
1.0 is unnecessary for big maps.
0.5 is win.
100% random, but not twice in same spawn would be more win.
(01-13-2016, 10:37 AM)Mario Wrote: Completely random wouldn't be recommended, as it would be more likely for the player to spawn right next to the enemy that just killed them.Really, if you hate getting spawn killed. A little bit of bad luck occasionally and spawning next to your opponent, is nothing compared to your opponent always having an idea where you're spawning next. Think further a little bit when you vote for your spawn system. Sometimes you might get lucky and snatch mega items because your opponent was focusing on spawn killing you and left them up. If you ask me, random spawning is a way better deal in every which way. To the guy who gets spawn killed a lot that is. You also got the spawn delay thing now, if you get hit by rockets at spawn then that's just your fault.
RE: [POLL] g_spawn_furthest - Random or always furthest? - kojn^ - 01-15-2016
Personally I would say 0.5 and remove the upto 5 seconds respawn, /end thread
RE: [POLL] g_spawn_furthest - Random or always furthest? - SPLAT - 01-15-2016
Yeah I think picking between 1.0 and 0.5 is not good enough. Given the option I like 1.0. But, I think a completely new system needs to be devised.
RE: [POLL] g_spawn_furthest - Random or always furthest? - terencehill - 01-15-2016
I'm in favor of a mechanism that makes the spawn frag counterproductive, there's already the spawnshield, which shields you from any damage within a few seconds after respawning... is it used in duels?
But I think we could do even more in addition to the spawn shield: any damage dealt on a freshly respawned player gets inflicted to the spawn killer instead. Alternatively the damage can be turned into health given to the respawned player.
RE: [POLL] g_spawn_furthest - Random or always furthest? - dekrY - 01-15-2016
For me personally, it's more annoying and unfair, if you get finished off by a guy spawning, rather being fragged a couple of times when YOU spawn. Imagine, there is a 10-20 second intense battle for a frag, and you barely pull it off, with 10hp left, and then the bastard just spawns right next to you and finishes you off izi, gets control, locks the map. Fair? No, pretty random. What is random in context of skill and intentional approach to sport? It's a negative factor. Knowing the spawns, timing the kills requires some skill (not whole lot, ok, but experience for sure). The other guy, can delay a spawn, or move to the side somehow, avoid partial damage. But he got fragged after all, and may get punished for that some more, I dont see a problem here. So 1.0 for me.