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+--- Thread: [SUGGESTION] Cut down on the number of weapons (/showthread.php?tid=2513)
RE: Cut down on the number of weapons - nifrek - 01-13-2012
(01-13-2012, 04:11 AM)asy7um Wrote:Quote:crylink/electro/hagar. But in fact, a player that knows how to use those 3 weapons, can do as much damage as someone using mortar/rl/nex.Who is that mysterious player and where can I find him? :>
Well I can't really give a name I guess, but sometimes I'll be stacked 150/150 and some dude will jump at me with hagar or crylink, and well, I don't think they themselves even realize how much damage they did to me, I have to gtfo with 20hp, while they seem to still think I'm stacked so they're not chasing me. Seriously, this happens all the time, to me anyway. So yeah, I guess I'm speculating, but it's the feeling I get often. I think we're just not used enough to the weapons to get a good idea of the kind of damage we're doing, maybe there's a problem with visual feedback or sound effects that make it seem like those weapons are weak, I dunno. Actually I think the only player I can think of that seems to fully grasp the damage he's doing with those weapons, is probably kojn.
RE: Cut down on the number of weapons - asyyy - 01-13-2012
I wont argue with you about the fact that it is possible to deal that kind of damage with those weapons. But using rl/nex/mortar is just a way more reliable way to deal damage. Crylink and electro shots are fairly easy to dodge, so it's not only about theoretical DPS. If you enter a fight and you know that your opponent has around 100hp and a little armor stack you know that you can finish him off with a mortar+nex combo at almost any range. With crylink or electro you would have to get really close to make sure to deal the expected damage.
RE: Cut down on the number of weapons - kojn^ - 01-13-2012
I think stormkeep was a good example with nifrek on about a map that just 'works', I could be slightly in favour of it though as I like it because more times then not, as nifrek said, if you die you have a chance to grab a weapon, it is very hard to control both items, and say nex + mortar, without allowing your opponent to get weapons and health himself..whilst actually hurting them, virtually impossible over the course of the match. Which is why I like it, you have to decide what you want to do on that map given the situation you find yourself in.
Another map I think works well with taking one of the 'main' weapons (if we use the nex/RL/mortar), is darkzone. I see a lot closer games on that map then other maps, it's not played as much as other maps, but I really like this map because it does not have the NEX gun. electro and mortar stack off quite equally against each other there, and I'd say after playing it Electro is now my preferred choice on the map over mortar.
nifrek is probably right that a good way to go forward would be too perhaps take out one or two of the main weapons on a map (not every map), atleast in duel, in TDM/CTF the problem is not really bad. Since the game will get the arc cannon at some point, it could be a good idea to perhaps start putting that in instead of the 3 core weapons (including the nex, again, darkzone perfect example). Bit of variety wouldn't go a miss on maps in regards to weapons, that means it actually requires a well balanced player to be 'good' over several maps if they wanted to win.
I always think it's impressive to see how an opponent will adapt to a map given what they are given on it.
I'm glad to see that the weapons are being segmented into the appropriate categories in the future, vehicle and super weapon weapons, Core weapons. Unless the sniper rifle gets a new model, and the damage for headshots is increased, I'd rather see it go to be honest.
RE: Cut down on the number of weapons - shackra - 01-14-2012
I don't agree with this idea
RE: Cut down on the number of weapons - divVerent - 01-16-2012
Rifle is supposed to stay. Samual now is putting words into my mouth without authorization.
I never said the rifle can go. DO NOT CLAIM SUCH THINGS.
The rifle is what the Nex SHOULD be, but can't become because that would change the Nex too much. If anything, the Nex should go, due to its obvious drawbacks (e.g. sharing ammo type with electro, crylink means there's basically infinite nex ammo around). newtonian-nightmare would, as C.Brutail wrote, indeed be totally broken with the rifle replaced by the nex, because there'd be WAY too much "Nex ammo" around.
What the rifle needs, is a new model, and a good balance (as kojn said, more headshot damage would probably work out well). The rifle also doesn't need to keep its name, or its visual idea. It does not have to be a "classic" weapon. It can just as well be something "modern" - but it still must not share ammo type with the more common weapons. Sharing ammo with MG is fine, because MG is only ONE other gun, and not all the many cells guns... so maps tend to contain WAY less MG/Rifle ammo than cells.
Consider this (not serious) idea BTW:
Nex gets rifle's gameplay mechanics, and its own separate ammo type. Rifle goes.
That would actually work out quite well. However, it'd be more natural to instead give the rifle a good model...
RE: Cut down on the number of weapons - Rage_ATWM - 01-16-2012
It sounds like we are stucked by a sake of consistency (i.e. nexgun shares the same ammo type as etc...).
But, is this consistency really so crucial?
For an old nexuiz player, maybe.
For a newbie, i guess he wouldn't mind at all, and he would prefer instead to have a clear arsenal without any redundant weapons.
I prefer ten thousand times an ammo system which is not historically fully consistent than some arsenal with redundant weaps.
RE: Cut down on the number of weapons - Samual - 01-16-2012
I never said to remove it, read back what I said...
anyway, I was considering to split up the ammo of the cell weapons with the addition of the lightning gun ANYWAY, so that alone might solve the issue for the nexgun..
RE: Cut down on the number of weapons - rainerzufalldererste - 01-16-2012
I think less weapons would cut down the awesomeness of xonotic.
More weapons also give the chance to the mapper to figure out how the map would be played. Not every weapon has to be in every map!
RE: Cut down on the number of weapons - kojn^ - 01-16-2012
divVerent I do actually prefer the rifle's mechanics too the nex, I prefer the quicker shooting, and I like the normal damage ( I think ), but I do not like the headshot damage is far too low. I guess it would take away some of the combo'ing ability, but all I seem to be doing lately is just combo spamming everything to kill people which doesn't really fill me with any sense of weapon handling ability, and that combo'ing includes the nex.But that's something else.
I would personally, much prefer a rifle with headshot damage. Anyway, interesting post divVerent thanks for clarification
RE: Cut down on the number of weapons - Justin - 01-16-2012
I mostly agree with kojn and Nifrek (got a couple of situation similar to yours). asy7um: The balance system isn't perfect but let me just say that the thing about perfection is that its impossible (TRON pwns
. Rocket/Nex/mortar combos are very popular because:
The weapons are close to each other in the weapon list so you can quickly change from one to another.
These weapons combos are very powerfull indeed.
These weapons are very usefull in all sort of situations: Nex for distant shots, very precise, nice dmg; Rocket launcher for splash dmg and impressive feature of controling your rocket in the airand blowing it up when u want it (this could be removed if you want to know my opinion about that), mortar: pretty fast refire, great secondary mode (very, very usefull) and nice splash dmg also.
You, guys know best of all that other weapons are also very strong but they hasn't been used, thy aren't used and they will be not used as the nex, mortar and rocket launcher are currently used. That is a key thing about Xonotic, It can not be changed and It cannot be solved by removing these weapons. All we can to do about it is to ask mappers for making better maps
C'mon! Lets make maps which forece us to use current weapon in current situation! what you say?! The truth is that every single situation requires different weapon (know that thing from duels against Kojn We got lost in the variety of weapons! We can't simply use all of them (no time for that!). Then we use the more powerfull (in all kinds of situations) ones which are nex mortar and rocket launcher!! However: Did I say it's bad? Who really complains that the big variety of weapons is bad? Nobody! . removing weapons would be like cutting the Phoenix's wing off. Don't be cruel, don't do that pls. Who said that you can't kill with crylink?
RE: Cut down on the number of weapons - asyyy - 01-16-2012
Quote:I think less weapons would cut down the awesomeness of xonotic.Depends. Thanks to Antibody we can take a look at http://stats.xonotic.org/ and see what (most) people like. With a complex weapon system you might be able to attract a handful of UT players or other experienced fast fps gamers. But those grew older, play less and rather stick to the game they learned. So to attract and keep larger amounts of new players we need something that isn't as complicated imo. Something in between overkill and current default xonotic. Personally I would rather see xonotic having hundreds of active players instead of only a small group who love their over-complicated toy.
RE: Cut down on the number of weapons - rafallus - 01-17-2012
Quote:I think less weapons would cut down the awesomeness of xonotic.
More weapons also give the chance to the mapper to figure out how the map would be played. Not every weapon has to be in every map!
I agree.
What can be done is to check for some redundancy, when it comes to weapons. As noted, rifle kinda duplicates nex's functionality, while being less fun (if anything, I'd be for removing the rifle and adding headshots to nex). HLAC's secondary is kinda like a heavy shotgun or non-bouncy Crylink's primary, TAG Seeker is almost like a hagar + seeker ability (my idea would be to convert it into some sort of anti-vehicle/turret weapon for an onslaught mode). I'm not sure hook should occupy slot as a weapon at all, more like it's a side tool.
And fireball should be put on some maps in similar manner to UT's redeemer or Q3's BFG10k, or even strength/defense powerups.
What I kinda miss is a LG from Q3's counterpart.
My 2 cents.
RE: Cut down on the number of weapons - Halogene - 01-17-2012
(01-16-2012, 05:57 PM)Justin Wrote: Rocket launcher for splash dmg and impressive feature of controling your rocket in the airand blowing it up when u want it (this could be removed if you want to know my opinion about that)
Never, ever, even think of removing remote detonation of rockets. Best feature of rocket launcher imho, even better than guiding feature (which is cool too). Removing remote detonation would leave us with one weapon less that is really useful for flying targets, so we'd have only nex, rifle, mg for that purpose. And pushing people in mid-air with the rocket is most fun.
RE: Cut down on the number of weapons - Justin - 01-17-2012
asy7um: Mabye there is good solution for the problem.
In my last post I said what precisely makes these 3 weapons so popular and powerfull.
What about giving them the weapon delay (as it is made in quake).
For those who don't know what I'm talking about: The weapon delay is a feature that doesn't allow the player to change weapon immediately after shooting. It forces to wait a couple of time until the player can change the weapon.
It will force players to think about the weapon choice and it will avoid the shooting chaos. The truth is that currently those who can fast change from weapon to weapon are winning (especially in close distance fights).
So it's not about removing them or making them weaker. For me, personally It's about avoiding the ease of making combos with nex mortar and rocket launcher.
For example:
2 secs. delay after nex shot.
0.5 sec. delay after mortar shot.
0.5-1 sec delay after rl shot.
and smaller values for other weapons, like:
0.2 sec for crylink and electro
0.3 sec after a shotgun and HLAC shots
RE: Cut down on the number of weapons - Halogene - 01-17-2012
I switch weapons with custom binds like a maniac but still die and lose a lot! See here: http://stats.xonotic.org/player/249 -> Average rank: 2, and I play duels mostly! Hah, what do you say now?
In my opinion, weapon combos are a core element of the gameplay. And you still have to think about the combos you use, just switching like a maniac doesn't help you against experienced players (I can tell) (ok also my aim sucks but still).
Also, some people win despite changing weapons with the MOUSE WHEEL o.O (!)
Just for the record again, I like to use almost every weapon I can get (kinda not fond of mg, but it's useful and all, just not really like it). And I know how to do significant damage with most of the weapons, so I don't really see a point in removing any of them? I think it should be the mapper's choice what weapon to put on a map.
RE: Cut down on the number of weapons - kojn^ - 01-17-2012
(01-17-2012, 06:51 AM)Justin Wrote: asy7um: Mabye there is good solution for the problem.
In my last post I said what precisely makes these 3 weapons so popular and powerfull.
What about giving them the weapon delay (as it is made in quake).
For those who don't know what I'm talking about: The weapon delay is a feature that doesn't allow the player to change weapon immediately after shooting. It forces to wait a couple of time until the player can change the weapon.
It will force players to think about the weapon choice and it will avoid the shooting chaos. The truth is that currently those who can fast change from weapon to weapon are winning (especially in close distance fights).
So it's not about removing them or making them weaker. For me, personally It's about avoiding the ease of making combos with nex mortar and rocket launcher.
For example:
2 secs. delay after nex shot.
0.5 sec. delay after mortar shot.
0.5-1 sec delay after rl shot.
and smaller values for other weapons, like:
0.2 sec for crylink and electro
0.3 sec after a shotgun and HLAC shots
I would concur with weapon delay. after playing Yourself Justin and fisume the other day, and Halogene and L0 last night, I increased my sensitivity and because of the RL change, I am constantly swapping weapons now combo'ing (gone back too reflexive shots). I don't really like it so much, I am fine with it, I am able too do it, but I never really feel it's who is using the weapons the best, it literally seems to be who can hit the most the quickest through quick combo's and pure aggression, I am not even thinking now tactically just a lot of rushing and quick weapon switches, I didn't realise one change to the RL would make reliance on weapon combo'ing so prolific.
Whatever avenue it all goes down I won't mind, but because of how it currently is, it puts such emphasis on just combo'ing with nex/RL/mortar, rather then using the other weapons, I do use them but I do not tend to use them for combo's other then the 3 I just mentined, which is a little bit worrying.
I honestly have no chance against someone, if they are just nex/RL/nex/mortar combo against me when I have one of the other weapons.
"It will force players to think about the weapon choice and it will avoid the shooting chaos. The truth is that currently those who can fast change from weapon to weapon are winning (especially in close distance fights).
"What Justin said there pretty much sums it up at the moment, fromy my games experience from over the last 2 nights, this was pretty easy too see, although it took me a few games too realise. Hadn't played since the new RL change.
Just a quick edit: I also combo with the electro primary, is exactly the same thing on darkzone, RL/mortar/electro instead electro replaces the nex - just an example
RE: Cut down on the number of weapons - Rage_ATWM - 01-17-2012
There is indeed a problem with spammy combos I think (I even wonder how this very visible feature hasn't been noticed before. Anyway.)
kojn, I saw your games against fisume lastly. My feeling was that fisume was absolutly unstoppable because he was both very fast (moves and aims) and very accurate.
Before introducing some repair patches, consider this before: imo, combo are now quite devastating because the push force on your oppponent when you hit him has been lowered a lot. Now, when your weak opponent is at close range, just combo the fastest possible with rl/mortar. Before (nexuiz time), when you hit him, he flew away and it was less easy to finish him quickly.
Anyhow i feel that we get further from the original thread topic...
RE: Cut down on the number of weapons - asyyy - 01-17-2012
What can I say, if even those who have played nexuiz for years on a high level have trouble finding the right weapon for each situation it should be clear that the current system is too complicated for newcomers. There is just so much redundancy:
nex <-> rifle
crylink secondary <-> hagar <-> hlac
sg <-> mg
laser, sg, electro, crylink, rl, mortar, nex, (lg)
That's a nice set of core weapons imo. Other weapons can be kept as "bonus" weapons and be used by the mapper ofc.
RE: Cut down on the number of weapons - Justin - 01-17-2012
Removing mg? Are you mad!? In my honest opinion if you had to get rid off 1 weapon it would be HLAC or hagar but leave us MG pls!!!
RE: Cut down on the number of weapons - asyyy - 01-17-2012
mg is slightly stronger than sg but they are both hitscan weapons best used in close and midrange fights. So unless you increase strength of mg in such a way that it can challenge rl/nex/mortar I see redundancy.
http://stats.xonotic.org/server/30
At least in duel, no one really uses mg.
RE: Cut down on the number of weapons - Mepper - 01-17-2012
Putting switch delay on weapons would kill the whole game, really, that would suck donkey balls.
Why not giving electro and crylink some more damage? And then maybe remove the max of 200 armor/health to compensate.
But honestly, I love the gameplay now, it is just fun to play. And I find it very usefull to sometimes use electro and crylink in my combos.
But if you really want to change things. DO NOT DELAY WEAPON SWITCHING, AND DON'T REMOVE ROCKET GUIDING AND DETONATING!
RE: Cut down on the number of weapons - Samual - 01-17-2012
Note: Sorry if this post comes off as rude or such -- just, VERY busy at the moment, but I don't want to just let this thread go without giving it any attention, so i'm quite stressed right now.
Give up on removing any of the core weapons, it's not happening. I quit if any of those weapons are removed. It is simply and absolutely NOT a solution, it is just pointless to get rid of that work for unique and fun weapons.
Increasing weapon switch delay has been shown to really not be fun -- FruitieX had much higher weapon animtimes in his balance, and most people hated this, it was VERY wrong as the movement was much faster than the weapons were able to keep up with. If we slowed the pace of the entire game, then it would make sense... But i'm pretty sure no one here really wants that. We could raise the switch TIME a little bit, but that too may be weird, and people may often be stuck switching and die because they couldn't even use their weapon. Also, I did this recently with the nexgun for example, and I got a lot of complaints, so I reverted it. MAKE UP YOUR MINDS PEOPLE!!
As for "redundant" weapon purposes -- you're very wrong, the core weapons DEFINITELY have specific purposes -- I.E. Crylink is mostly useful as a defensive weapon, and for hunting people down due to its negative force. Or, hagar is for doing quick and easy damage in short to medium range, where most other weapons aren't so good at short range... Additionally, HLAC is not a core weapon -- in fact, as I said, it's going to be removed. forget about it -- I intentionally made all of its functionality replaced by other weapons. Machine Gun is soon going to become like a chain gun, so it too will be different from the arc cannon (lightning gun) when implemented. BTW, i'm not done with Crylink secondary or hagar secondary, still definitely want to work on those a lot.
And finally, regarding weapon combos and skilled Nexuiz players: I still say, habit influences the combos FAR more than you are considering. Basically, if people have been playing for years and years with nex/mortar/rocketlauncher combos, it is VERY difficult to break that habit, even if the alternatives are equally good or better. 4 years of Nexuiz, versus 5 months of my balance.... they will keep the Nexuiz behavior very clearly unless they explicitly work on using the other weapons, just like they trained themselves for the Nexuiz weapons years ago.
If anything, I think the best course of action is to limit the "general situation" weapons more in some way. -- Nexgun and grenadelauncher specifically -- those weapons just work far too well in most situations, whereas the other ones -- although equally (or more so) powerful -- are only useful in more specific purposes.. like Electro is for traps, or Crylink is for defensive/hunting purposes, etc. i.e., electro cannot really be used in close combat very well, as it takes too long to set up and you may accidentally kill yourself. If the nexgun and grenadelauncher had a similar type of limitation, that would put much more purpose on the situation based weapons idea, and then mappers would use them more aptly on maps.
The more you guys complain about this, the more i'm going to lean towards doing ^that, as THAT is the real solution.
RE: Cut down on the number of weapons - kojn^ - 01-17-2012
I don't think anyone is complaining Samual, just pointing out a few things? (suggestions).
RE: Cut down on the number of weapons - s1lence - 01-17-2012
The thing that I think a lot of people are overlooking is the fact that while the weapons are well balanced for the sort of team-based tactics found in CTF and other such, they are divided into two classes when it comes to high-skill matches with few players, including 1v1 matches. Those classes are the weapons that respond positively to higher skill(such as the nex, rocket, and machine gun) and those which are indifferent(such as the crylink, electro). It’s important to maintain a balance which gives skilled players(a class of which I am not a part) and average players reason to utilize all weapons. Currently most average players can use weapons like the crylink, electro, and mortar to great effect, as these have high spread and thus are indifferent to aim and more useful for map control in team games. Most skilled players, by contrast, are burdened by high spread in weapons, as this makes them less reliable for hitting distant targets.
This is a balance issue that I think (if it is considered to need fixing) is something the game is well equipped to fix, because of the presence of secondary fire. A good example of this was the 0.1 electro. the electro could be used, in the hands of a good player, as an effective way to get damage in from a distance. Moreover, it was a good choice for less skilled players because of it’s ability to preform the electro-combo for splash damage, and could be used for map control. It was of course, largely redundant and was removed in favor of the old version, which is almost useless for damage in skilled matches. But if this sort of idea of a genuinely balanced weapon ie. one which favors no particular style or game-type, could be done with every weapon, Xonotic could remain as approachable as it is now for new players, but allow genuine diversity in high-skill matches.
Just my 2 cents.
Here are some ideas:
The Crylink could have it’s primary fire changed to secondary, and have it’s primary become a bit more like the plasma gun in quake. the nexuiz spread pattern could be used but with the fire-rate and speed of the current secondary fire, and with slightly less spread.
The Electro could be returned to a tweaked version of the previous balance(with help from the community we could perfect the balance)
The Machinegun would have to be tweaked to make it less redundant with the electro, if not removed all together. We could make it almost a cross between the electro and the crylink, but using shells as ammo(perhaps increased spread for primary and shotgun like firing in stead of the 3-round burst. ie. Same damage, more spread, faster fire rate. the hitscan would balance the spread)
The TAG could be merged into the hagar and nurfed.
Note: these ballence ideas are far from perfect, but demonstrate, with community help and brainstorming, that Yes, It Can Be Done!
RE: Cut down on the number of weapons - asyyy - 01-17-2012
Although I don't agree with all of them, I see lots of interesting views in this thread. So what's the problem with discussing?
Basically you don't want suggestions or feedback on this at all, that's great for a "community driven" game.