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+--- Thread: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated (/showthread.php?tid=3106)
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - asyyy - 06-07-2012
Quote:The only two people I know to repeatedly use the nex in combos (short to mid range) are myself and Bolwind.There, I found the problem. I want a cookie now
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - Chryyz - 06-07-2012
(06-07-2012, 01:09 PM)asy7um Wrote:Quote:The only two people I know to repeatedly use the nex in combos (short to mid range) are myself and Bolwind.There, I found the problem. I want a cookie now
Read further.
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - -Lo- - 06-07-2012
@Chryyz:
- I was hoping that you read my posts in this thread.
- I did not write about repeatedly using the nex in combos. My "concerns regard the instant weapon switch after the 1st shot in close range fights", which usually does 90 dmg.
- For now i am just thinking of a weapon switch delay for the nex of about 1 to 1.5 seconds.
Ofcourse this delay should not appear if you switch to the nex, just if you switch from the nex to another weapon.
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - asyyy - 06-07-2012
(06-07-2012, 01:10 PM)Chryyz Wrote:(06-07-2012, 01:09 PM)asy7um Wrote:Quote:The only two people I know to repeatedly use the nex in combos (short to mid range) are myself and Bolwind.There, I found the problem. I want a cookie now
Read further.
I did. You try to tell one of the best players in Nexuiz and Xonotic about how his favorite weapon works. And then advise him to play a different game. What did I miss?
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - _Subzero_ - 06-07-2012
Shootgun in short distance will do 56-80dmg, no penalty of any kind ... and that's a spawn weapon
Rocket will do 80dmg with dmg penalty confined to 110qu from target
Hagar primary will output 75dmg in half a second with dmg penalty limited to mere 65qu
Nex will output 40-90dmg per 1.5s. Its the only weapon out there that doesn't contribute to spam-fest in ffa. But ofc. its the starting with nex that is supposedly the problem...
Few months ago switch delay was increased to balance combos. Now there are demand to put extra delay (1-1.5s!!!) just for the nex. I guess for few players its never enough, untill nex is crap.
(06-07-2012, 09:20 AM)-Lo- Wrote: This is were the weapon switch delay comes into play so that a player has to calculate if he is willing to take the risk of using the nex, because he will eat alot of dmg without being able to defend himself for some time (if he misses the shot or the player survives).
Thats why a weapon switch delay makes the nexgun more balanced compared to the other weapons, more interesting to use, and adds another skill element of weapon decision making.
For me the nexgun at the current stage does not support making well-consided weapon choices, which would encourage players to also use other weapons more often in the right situations.
This game strives to be a fast peaced shoter, not chess. Amo reloads / extra large delays are nothing but annoyance in this kind of gameplay. For me all this talking about calculating odds is phony when you run/turn at crazy speeds in the current physics.
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - CuBe0wL - 06-07-2012
I'm not fully following, but long switch delay players should note, that QW doesn't even have any. There weapons switch instantly. I knew players who had mousebind such a way, that on click it fired a rocket, on release switched (and fired) shaft, and on next click stopped shaft again.
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - asyyy - 06-07-2012
Quote:For me all this talking about calculating odds is phony when you run/turn at crazy speeds in the current physics.Good players run at crazy speeds and still do calculation, that's where it gets sexy
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - _Subzero_ - 06-07-2012
(06-07-2012, 03:59 PM)asy7um Wrote:Quote:For me all this talking about calculating odds is phony when you run/turn at crazy speeds in the current physics.Good players run at crazy speeds and still do calculation, that's where it gets sexy
I would rather say, they utilise some set of habits
Unless playing on a not yet learnt map.
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - asyyy - 06-07-2012
How is that a bad thing? With experience comes automatism, that's not exclusive to xonotic or video games in general. I mean you wouldn't really expect someone who just learns to swim to be able to compete with Michael Phelps either.
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - _Subzero_ - 06-07-2012
I'm not saying its a bad thing.
What I'm saying is that a 1.5s hole put in the middle of a game advertised as fast peaced fps is a borked idea. And covering it up with some "player has to calculate if he is willing to take the risk" is phony, because at the end its all - as you said - automatism. This is fast peaced fps, not X-COM UFO.
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - rafallus - 06-07-2012
Quote:What I'm saying is that a 1.5s hole put in the middle of a game advertised as fast peaced fps is a borked idea.
That hole only would exist, if you chose that weapon. Had you picked something else, there would be none.
I don't have any problem with idea of nex being nerfed for close to mid range - it more than makes up for it with the fact that it is the only viable weapon for longer ranges (besides rifle, which isn't in core set anyway).
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - _Subzero_ - 06-07-2012
(06-07-2012, 05:22 PM)rafallus Wrote:Quote:What I'm saying is that a 1.5s hole put in the middle of a game advertised as fast peaced fps is a borked idea.
That hole only would exist, if you chose that weapon. Had you picked something else, there would be none.
Which means there would be a borked 1.5s hole every time someone uses certain core weapon. And that in a game marketed as fast fps.
(06-07-2012, 05:22 PM)rafallus Wrote: I don't have any problem with idea of nex being nerfed for close to mid range - it more than makes up for it with the fact that it is the only viable weapon for longer ranges (besides rifle, which isn't in core set anyway).
- Look at the numbers I posted above.
- Nerfing nex makes only for more splash dmg and assorted mess in the game. It doesn't make up for anything.
--
Frankly, I suspect that should nex have some splash dmg (which ofc. would be even more borked than this 1.5s delay) the amount of complaints in this forum would drop by half.
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - W4RP1G - 06-07-2012
(06-07-2012, 11:18 AM)TickleMeElmo Wrote: I just want to throw this in there. The rocket launcher in current build against 95% of players is a pwnmobile. I see mid level and upper mid levels constantly trying to use the Nex on many of the maps. The fact is most of the stock and quality maps are largely close quarters, or mid range. This dampens the nexs power, and unless you a 1%er then the Nex is more likely to get you killed in many of these situations. Thus it is definitively not a one weapon game.Yeah, you raped me with it so bad that I threw an f-bomb at you one night. Sorry about that btw
I was having kind of a bad night. At least I waited til the match ended to rage quit though...On topic, I think the nex works pretty damn well in a 1v1 because someone with good aim can get in 90 dmg instantly, thus making the megas even more important to control. But, it also gives the sneaky player a way to deal high chip dmg when they are out of control, so I guess maybe it balances out? Either way, other weapons will need to be used. A well placed nex shot just makes the other weapons more useful(if that makes any sense).
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - TickleMeElmo - 06-07-2012
(06-07-2012, 06:22 PM)W4RP1G Wrote: Yeah, you raped me with it so bad that I threw an f-bomb at you one night. Sorry about that btw
It's All good I have had bad days too. That was a close game though, and thanks for staying. I look forward to playing again.
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - Chryyz - 06-07-2012
(06-07-2012, 01:13 PM)asy7um Wrote:(06-07-2012, 01:10 PM)Chryyz Wrote:(06-07-2012, 01:09 PM)asy7um Wrote:Quote:The only two people I know to repeatedly use the nex in combos (short to mid range) are myself and Bolwind.There, I found the problem. I want a cookie now
Read further.
I did. You try to tell one of the best players in Nexuiz and Xonotic about how his favorite weapon works. And then advise him to play a different game. What did I miss?
Oh.... oh really? Well damn. I'm really sorry. You know, we should just ask Antibody to integrate his stats system into the forum and allow higher elo ranked players to hide or delete the posts of lower ranked elo players. That way we can avoid all this mess. After all, the better you are, the more valuable your opinion, right.... RIGHT!?
/sarcasm
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - adem - 06-07-2012
Just my 2 cents:
I feel like all this strength of Nex comes from the average ping of players. My experience says to me that the average player has about 70-90 ping (mb even higher). So, the question is - Which gun should be more useful on that ping? Answer is simple: instant hit guns like Nex, Rifle, Machine Gun. Not so many maps has Rifle, and MG has a big spread = > so that is why Nex became the most powerful and the most useful weapon of game.
I'm sure guns would be more balance on LAN-games, but since there is a few servers in world and the average ping higher than 50-60, projectile weapons have no chance against instant hit weapons.
P.S. And my Nex aim is not so good as somebody thoughts, it is only 38.85%.
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - Bolwind - 06-07-2012
As someone who uses the nex quite a lot, as Chryz pointed out, I find most of these arguing points against the nex are quite silly. It is very reminiscent of the arguments I've seen against the railgun in Quake Live. At the moment, the only thing I can really see that would imbalance the current Nex is the lack of a LG in quake, which is of course most players go-to weapon for mid range fights. Without it, there arent any hitscan weapons in the game to use for short range fights, which is why I resort to the nex. For the people claiming theres no downside to running around the map with a nex out all the time, good players are simply going to nail you with spam rockets/mortar/electro shots when you attempt to peek them for nex shots. Also, nex damage output is far less than what you could gain from mortar/rocket and even crylink shots, so I don't know why thats considered a problem. Honestly all I can gather from most of this thread is people complaining about things prematurely, rather than finding a counter for it.
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - tZork - 06-08-2012
I said it before and ill say it again. If the nex works "to well" at midrage, thne the midrage weapons need fixing, not the nex. Nex has one of the lowest DPS of any weapon. You need ti have it help ~4sec after fired to make it hurt good. If that's not nerfing enough then the whole gun concept needs to go, else we'd end up with another toothless weapon. as adem pointed out, its also quite important to ppl with less then optimal ping, as someone who frequently plays with 120+ and 5-10% PL i can vouch for that.
The desired strategy element is already there: You need to decide when (in in what combo) to use this wep as you have to hold it 4 secs after shooting to make it hurt again. Yes you can spam it for (40 is it?) damage over and over, but thats a damage output of ~33 assuming you hit every last shot. If you do the same with with the mg primary, you land a whooping 100 damage per second instead. Or, if you will 120 damage in the time it take the nex to even refire. 400 dmg in the time it takes it to fully charge. Yes you can switch between those weapons, however the player who uses the mg to start with in a fight, at appropriate range, and can aim it well will most certainly win over a nex'r given all else is equal.
We had a longer-for-nex-only switch delay at one point and it was absolutely horrible, so just forget abt that as it will not happen again. Other constructive ideas on how to make close-mid range wepons useful are quite welcome tough.
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - asyyy - 06-08-2012
(06-07-2012, 09:21 PM)Chryyz Wrote: Oh.... oh really? Well damn. I'm really sorry. You know, we should just ask Antibody to integrate his stats system into the forum and allow higher elo ranked players to hide or delete the posts of lower ranked elo players. That way we can avoid all this mess. After all, the better you are, the more valuable your opinion, right.... RIGHT!?What else should make your opinion valuable if not knowledge on the current topic?
/sarcasm
Discussing here is so pointless tbh. So there is a player who openly abuses the nexgun (LO), talks about it on the forums and people try to tell him that in theory he is not able to abuse the nexgun. Ridiculous..
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - tZork - 06-08-2012
What im saying is, if one is proficient in the weapons geared towards close combat those should be more effective in that situation (if they aren't those are what needs fixing). That a half a handful of ppl can use one weapon very effectively does not, imo, qualify as a reason to make that weapon suck for everyone else. Personally i feel that the relative power of the projectile weapons are a too low, however i do not play all that much these days so that may just be the rust speaking.
And you can bash theory all you like asy7um, but the simple fact is a higher DPS weapon used at the same or greater accuracy then a lower DPS one will win, every time. I would not be at all surprised if LO or someone at hes (awesome) skill level spent the time getting as good with [weapon name here] as with the nex, eventually resulting in some cry for nerfing that gun.
That said, i quite appreciate LO's view on this matter. I just don't think we have seen any appropriate solution in this thread (yet?)
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - rafallus - 06-08-2012
Quote:Which means there would be a borked 1.5s hole every time someone uses certain core weapon. And that in a game marketed as fast fps.
How is that a problem?
1. It's your own problem that you picked that weapon and missed. Would you vote for dropping nex's refire rate to 0,1 or 0,2 s to fix that?
2. Nobody complains about it anywhere else - somehow, it is instinctively understood that missing rail/eb does come with penalty of making you vulnerable. Does it slow a game? Hmmm, does having to quickly get out of the view because you're a sitting duck actually slow the game at all? Here? How about nex > mortar > nex > mortar > nex > mortar > nex > mortar until you're out of ammo. Are you a sitting duck then?
Nex by itself may not have high DPS - in principle, similar to other games with hitscan low ROF weapons. Nex chained with mortar ad infinitum - different story.
Quote:Frankly, I suspect that should nex have some splash dmg (which ofc. would be even more borked than this 1.5s delay) the amount of complaints in this forum would drop by half.
You're trolling, aren't you? How about combining yours "suggestion" with mine: 0,2s refire + splash damage, keeping hitscan and perfect accuracy?
Though I guess arc cannon might be an effective nex (sorry, nex > mortar > nex > mortar > nex > mortar > nex > mortar) counter if tweaked correctly. That leaves question of other weapons.
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - _Subzero_ - 06-08-2012
So lets have a look at the last DM cup:
http://stats.xonotic.org/server/136
http://stats.xonotic.org/game/29008
http://stats.xonotic.org/game/28999
http://stats.xonotic.org/game/28993
Total dmg output from a) nex: 54.8k b) shotgun: 58,9k. And shotgun is a spawn weapon - you dont need to pick it, you can't controle it.
So why don't we see threads about overpowered spawn weapon? Why its all about nex? Because nex is not uniformly easy. And you will have somone frustrated with nex starting a thread and then few others (not necessary bad with nex - there are always different opinions on gameplay) jumping in. No, its not trolling. And of course you know that in repetitive comboing nex will output 40dmg (at which point there are few other weapons that have similar/higher dmg; some with splash damage). Don't forget the fact that nex and comboing went thru few rounds of tweaking in the current balance.
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - rafallus - 06-08-2012
Quote:So why don't we see threads about overpowered spawn weapon?
Why, indeed we do. Do you think it wasn't brought up in a "new spawn weapon" thread?
http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=3029&pid=40500#pid40500
That's a rather big argument in favor of a new spawn weapon.
Quote:nex will output 40dmg
Source? I have one to the contrary (see demo cube-arena):
Min dmg done with nex (when shooting by holding mouse, so as soon as it's charged enough, it fires)? 70 it seems. That's sans combo. But as the matter of fact, I do recall getting 70 dmg nex in combo, just after switching in one match online. Tried to replicate it locally (demo stormkeep). Judging by hit sound, last hit definitely did >50 dmg, unless bot was below 100 - highly doubtful since they don't laserjump (if they even receive self-damage - player doesn't in current autobuild for some reason, as it was noted) and it couldn't get out of lava if it fell there.
Regardless, refire time of nex in that combo is about the same as if you didn't bother to switch - in other words - free damage! Why would anyone use nex on its own if they picked up mortar beforehand? If you do have both, comboing is only sensible option to use nex, unless you're in a long range fight.
Quote:Don't forget the fact that nex and comboing went thru few rounds of tweaking in the current balance.
It doesn't mean it can't get better.
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - Chryyz - 06-08-2012
(06-08-2012, 06:27 AM)rafallus Wrote:Quote:So why don't we see threads about overpowered spawn weapon?
Why, indeed we do. Do you think it wasn't brought up in a "new spawn weapon" thread?
http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=3029&pid=40500#pid40500
That's a rather big argument in favor of a new spawn weapon.
Quote:nex will output 40dmg
Source? I have one to the contrary (see demo cube-arena):
Min dmg done with nex (when shooting by holding mouse, so as soon as it's charged enough, it fires)? 70 it seems. That's sans combo. But as the matter of fact, I do recall getting 70 dmg nex in combo, just after switching in one match online. Tried to replicate it locally (demo stormkeep). Judging by hit sound, last hit definitely did >50 dmg, unless bot was below 100 - highly doubtful since they don't laserjump (if they even receive self-damage - player doesn't in current autobuild for some reason, as it was noted) and it couldn't get out of lava if it fell there.
Regardless, refire time of nex in that combo is about the same as if you didn't bother to switch - in other words - free damage! Why would anyone use nex on its own if they picked up mortar beforehand? If you do have both, comboing is only sensible option to use nex, unless you're in a long range fight.
Quote:Don't forget the fact that nex and comboing went thru few rounds of tweaking in the current balance.
It doesn't mean it can't get better.
70 is correct as I tested earlier yesterday, and I would not be at all opposed to having the uncharged damage nerfed more to encourage the use of other weapons. Swap time however? No.
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - _Subzero_ - 06-08-2012
- Rafallus, shotgun balance gets way less attention in this forum, there is no denying. Even that thread you pointed to don't go towards rebalancing shotgun but, in fact, towards preserving the whole laser and shotgun functionality, except now squeezed into one spawn weapon.
- Sources:
http://git.xonotic.org/?p=xonotic/xonotic-data.pk3dir.git;a=blob_plain;f=balanceXonotic.cfg
http://git.xonotic.org/?p=xonotic/xonotic-data.pk3dir.git;a=blob_plain;f=qcsrc/server/w_nex.qc
- As to comboing being a more sensible option than one weapon use - that's a positive aspect of this game.