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+--- Thread: [SUGGESTION] Mines or Grenades (/showthread.php?tid=386)
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RE: Mines or Grenades - PineTrees - 05-09-2010
"devs would have to do something"
Nope. The players don't pay the devs salary, the enjoyment that comes with building the game does.
Building... what they want.
"and players rely on the mercy of mappers and server admins"
Nobody is stopping them from becoming mappers, server admins, and developers themselves... other than their lazyness, ineptitude, and narcissism in demanding that everyone else do _everything_ for them... and the worse narcissism that some peoples creations or ideas NOT be allowed (removal of things). The players go the ear of the "king" last time and got tzork's hard work removed. That is not going to happen again.
Opensource works when everyone does a little something that they are proficient at, and become proficient at other needed skills. Some people map, some people make textures, some sounds, some models, some code, some a little of this and that, etc. These are the people that are needed. They kinda get disillusioned when their contributions are later deleted. The players... they come and hang on later... and then for some reason think they can dictate things that should be not allowed or removed from "their" game which they didn't help make. No, the devs and content makers are the indispensable people, not the people who only _play_ the game (the players).
It is commercial games which rely on the players (who pay to buy the game and pay the salary), not opensource games (where players contribute nothing (otherwise they would be, by definition, more than players... they would be mappers, artists, code devs, mockup artists, admins etc).
RE: Mines or Grenades - Roanoke - 05-09-2010
God, you must be a horse and have blocks keeping your vision on specific parts of the text. This is the second time you ignored the fact that the players can just stop playing the game if they are unhappy with what the devs are doing. You then wind up with nexuiz, several devs, plenty of servers, but few if any players (yes, nexuiz has players, but most of them will go to xonotic when it's out). Let me repeat that a few times so it's harder to ignore. The players can stop playing the game. In addition, not everyone has the hardware to run mapping software or the money to run a server. And once more, for emphasis: Players can stop playing the game.
RE: Mines or Grenades - Lee_Stricklin - 05-09-2010
(05-06-2010, 12:17 PM)Trees Wrote: We need to fork Xonotic then if all it is going to be is a "fast-paced trick-jump weapon-combo first-person shooter" rather than that PLUS whatever new ADDITIONS the devs want to add.
The existance of a mine weapon doesn't hurt you unless you are a do-nothing player who refuses to even use the g_weapon_replace commands.... which is what most are.
Another fork to get away from you "don't add feature" demanders?
Do you realize exactly how much of a PITA that would be? You could always make it a mod or something that is optional. The only time I think something should be forked is if the community gets sold out or a developer REALLY wants to take the game into a new direction like make a stand-alone-version of Siege XXL, a Tribes-styled game, or a something that makes the game REALLY different.
RE: Mines or Grenades - PineTrees - 05-10-2010
"You then wind up with nexuiz, several devs, plenty of servers, but few if any players"
Good.
I like devs better. Players are always demanding features be removed, or that their config be the DEFAULT for everyone. They're narcisistic twits.
You still don't seem to understand what opensource is for. You think that devs gain satisfaction from doing whatever the "players" want. Nope. One gains satisfaction from building things one wants (not removing features at the baying of the players).
Opensource projects never needed players, only developers. (Note: players by definition are people that just play the game and don't help out, those people who help out... become devs)
RE: Mines or Grenades - unfa - 05-10-2010
THE ALWAYS-WATCHING OFFTOPIC DEMON IS LAUGHING AT YOU!
RE: Mines or Grenades - VNilla - 05-10-2010
(@OfftopicDemon: I'm sorry for prolonging this, but I feel like I can't let this argument die yet. However, I will admit that I'm laughing at myself right along side of you.)
Trees Wrote:Opensource projects never needed player, only developers.What about Wikipedia? What good would Wikipedia be if no one used it? Sure, it might become the most reliable source of information available anywhere, but NO ONE WOULD USE IT SO IT WOULD BE USELESS. (Technically, though, if no one used it, no one would be contributing new data, so it would be useless and completely obsolete.)
An "ideal" opensource project would be one in which there are no true "players," as you call them; where everyone contributes to the common good. In an ideal OS project, there would be no "default config" because it would always be changing; by the time a default build is released, it would already be woefully obsolete. Wikipedia is by-far the closest thing to an "ideal" opensource project that I have ever seen.
Besides, if the "players" didn't voice their opinions in some way (not just verbally, but with their actions as well), no progress would ever be made. With no guiding directions, everyone would be trying to "pull" the project in a different direction. Everyone's changes would cancel out everyone else's. You need "players" who can offer some insight into where the project should be going.
In Summary: to paraphrase Captain Picard, "Ensign, please send them another copy of the information and tell them to read it this time."
RE: Mines or Grenades - kuniu the frogg - 05-10-2010
(05-10-2010, 07:45 AM)unfa Wrote: THE ALWAYS-WATCHING OFFTOPIC DEMON IS LAUGHING AT YOU!
well, according to the fact, that the discussion here is about everything except mines and grenades, I`m not sure who is more that scary offtopic demon - you, the rest of fellaz writing here, or me
maybe some mighty people think that this discussion is somehow important, as they let this mess continue...
back to the topic finally, some guys have mentioned that mines would suck in such game like Xonotic would be probably. I think that it would be nice to use mines against vehicles.
RE: Mines or Grenades - VNilla - 05-10-2010
Right... the original topic...
Hmmm. I think it would be best to wait and see what other anti-vehicle stuff comes out; I know that there's much discussion about reintroducing the TAG Seeker as an anti-vehicle gun, which would be far more effective than mines in most cases. And you want to leave a few situations in which a vehicle is hard to stop/prevent so that vehicles don't become useless. It's possible that the addition of mines would do just that, but not guaranteed. So I say we should wait and see; I think someone should develop tham so that if we need them, we have them, but if not, we aren't any worse off.
As my mother always says, "It's better to have it and not need it that need it and not have it."
RE: Mines or Grenades - Roanoke - 05-10-2010
(05-10-2010, 01:04 AM)Trees Wrote: You still don't seem to understand what opensource is for. You think that devs gain satisfaction from doing whatever the "players" want. Nope. One gains satisfaction from building things one wants (not removing features at the baying of the players).
Then those devs can develop for themselves and for trees.
RE: Mines or Grenades - PineTrees - 05-10-2010
"but NO ONE WOULD USE IT SO IT WOULD BE USELESS. "
The devs would use it. They allready do.
Players that do nothing (by definition) DO NOT MATTER TO OPENSOURCE.
They matter to commercial games because they provide the $$$, in opensource they're more of a drain and an annoyance (and they don't contribute even $ either, let alone their own time developing things (otherwise they'd be developers).
Let me see if I can get this /through/ your thick self-important heads.
Opensource programmers and developers do NOT build opensource games for YOUR satisfaction. They build them for THEIR OWN satisfaction. Do you understand that? To scratch an itch, but not your itch. (Do some work and maybe someone will help you though... but if you're contributing you're no longer just a player.) That you enjoy the game to is an unanticipated side effect: don't let it get to your head.
This is almost like when a lady marries a rich gentleman and then thinks highly of HERSELF as if SHE accomplished something (because she's benifitting from his lagress/money). Nope she's just sponging. The man existed just fine before her, just as opensource projects exist just fine without _non-contributing_ players (the definition of player).
Such narcicism from these players. They're so ungrateful for what others create and so narcicistic to think that they, just because they benifit from the creation, must be the /reason/ for the creation. They have no grasp of logic either.
RE: Mines or Grenades - VNilla - 05-10-2010
Trees Wrote:Opensource programmers and developers do NOT build opensource games for YOUR satisfaction. They build them for THEIR OWN satisfaction.
IF THEY ARE DEVELOPING SOMETHING SOLELY FOR THEIR OWN ENJOYMENT, THEN WHAT POINT WOULD THERE BE IN MAKING IT OPENSOURCE???
THE ONLY POINT TO HAVING SOMETHING OPENSOURCE IS TO SHARE IT WITH OTHERS. WITHOUT OTHERS, THERE IS NO POINT TO ITS EXISTENCE.
(BTW, my skull is only as thick as yours.
)
RE: Mines or Grenades - PinkRobot - 05-11-2010
Stop shouting
Mines, great, let's have them. GTA4 Mod, even greater, let's have that too! One snag: I don't know how to code to meet the high standards of the Xonotic codebase and I don't really have time to get my skills up to par either. Trees has himself said on numerous occasions that the same goes for him. That means we'll have to wait for a dev to be kind enough, or get enthusiastic about it enough, to code it for us. So we'll just make requests and hope somebody will answer them.
Tip: showing signs of enthusiasm and dedication to an idea might get it into the game. Even though the tourney mod had its flaws (wasn't it completely rewritten?) just the fact that someone started it and stuck with it, now means we have a much improved match system for competitive play. So, just start it and get people to see how cool it could be, if it has legs it will run.
We can all make threads about our suggestions, ideas, etc, and nobody should shoot something down only because it doesn't 'fit' Xonotic. Even more so because Xonotic has not even had a release yet (so how can anyone except the devs say that it doesn't fit?).
RE: Mines or Grenades - PineTrees - 05-11-2010
(05-10-2010, 07:18 PM)VNilla Wrote:Trees Wrote:Opensource programmers and developers do NOT build opensource games for YOUR satisfaction. They build them for THEIR OWN satisfaction.
IF THEY ARE DEVELOPING SOMETHING SOLELY FOR THEIR OWN ENJOYMENT, THEN WHAT POINT WOULD THERE BE IN MAKING IT OPENSOURCE???
THE ONLY POINT TO HAVING SOMETHING OPENSOURCE IS TO SHARE IT WITH OTHERS. WITHOUT OTHERS, THERE IS NO POINT TO ITS EXISTENCE.
(BTW, my skull is only as thick as yours.
The point is to share it with anyone who might happen to also be a developer (could be anyone) or an artist etc, who might then assist in developing the game. If one person is working on a project (yes, working, not "suggesting" random variable changes) and then two people are working on a project the stuff developer one wanted might get done faster. If three people are working on a project it might get done faster still, or things developer one didn't even think of but are still fun for him get created etc.
The players who do nothing do not matter.
As I said: you're a buch of narcisists who think everything is built for you and without you the work of the developers and the developers themselves are _nothing_.
You are WRONG.
Get it through your skull.
Unless you are contributing something you don't matter to any opensource project.
The only reason you (non-contributing players) matter to other commercial games is because you are forced to contribute MONEY to them. When you don't contribute ANYTHING to a project (except constant nitpicks and "suggestion" complaints which just say "DONT ALLOW NEW FEATURE I DONT LIKE IT") you do NOT matter to it.
You are not the Gods of the Devs: they are NOT trying to appease you with Game.
Fucking narcicists.