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+--- Thread: [SUGGESTION] Improving beginner servers (/showthread.php?tid=1221)
Improving beginner servers - ThePWTULN - 11-16-2010
A problem I experienced on Nexuiz as a beginner was that I got completely owned on what was supposed to be the beginner server
Sometimes I look at the scoreboard of a beginner's server from the server list and see this:
newbie......................2
newbie2....................1
newbie3....................0
im not pro lololol.......30
Obviously what's going on here is that an experienced player's gone onto the server looking for some easy frags. This is unfair on the newbies, who are just getting killed all the time, rather actually learning a trick or two.
So here's a possible solution. Why don't we have a a "skill level" just for beginner severs? Your skill level would be a number generated using a formula that takes into account factors like kill/death ratio, accuracy, number of suicides etc. Once your skill level goes above a certain point, you're no longer a newbie and become unable to join games on the server. Experienced players can still connect and spectate, so they can give tips and advice. Either that, or their weapons do less damage.
This would stop (rather cruel) players from messing around with newbies, while more helpful players are still able to train them
RE: Improving beginner servers - Cuinnton - 11-16-2010
yes I would love to have a kdr included in the game. stats ftw. only problem is they will make the game more addictive 8)
RE: Improving beginner servers - Halogene - 11-17-2010
I myself have only once played on the DCC's beginner server (that was some three years ago I think). But often I noticed when just looking who's online there that I knew some of the names as pretty advanced players. So a system to keep a beginner's server a server for beginners only would make sense indeed.
I don't really know how to accomplish that, though. If we have an authentication system in place, then this might be possible as long as the server does not also accept non-authenticated users... Otherwise I think the only way is to force pwning players into spec mode once the death/kill ratio becomes ridiculous, meaning they loose their score and can't win.
Or you could remove all weapon push force and damage from them, except push force and damage dealt to themselves - is that even possible? That way they could demonstrate they are hard to kill and how to move (so people might want to learn from them) but they can't do any harm (except Super Mario Frags for example). Thinking of that this sounds like incredible fun... don't know if we would want that as an attraction for beginner's servers. Discuss!
ANYHOW. The problem I see is that advanced players should ALWAYS have the possibility to join beginner's servers so they can do some training, show tricks and stuff. Never thought about joining the beginner's server for that yet, but thinking of it I might want to do that actually.
RE: Improving beginner servers - Minkovsky - 11-17-2010
...What's Super Mario Frags?
Cool idea.
RE: Improving beginner servers - Mirio - 11-17-2010
(11-17-2010, 06:45 AM)Minkovsky Wrote: ...What's Super Mario Frags?If you jump on someones head (mostly by accident) and he falls of the map.
RE: Improving beginner servers - Halogene - 11-17-2010
(11-17-2010, 07:39 AM)Mirio Wrote:Exactly. For example on pushmoddm or whatever that map's name was - people coming from one of the lower jumppads to the central platform often fall into void because other people jump on their heads when they jump down from the middle platform to the lower ones. You don't score a point for Super Mario Frags, but it still is fun to do.(11-17-2010, 06:45 AM)Minkovsky Wrote: ...What's Super Mario Frags?If you jump on someones head (mostly by accident) and he falls of the map.
RE: Improving beginner servers - master[mind] - 11-17-2010
Lol, target practice servers Halogene.
Ultimate Win, "Catch me if you can!"
RE: Improving beginner servers - Halogene - 11-17-2010
Yes, that would be a fun thing to do for some advanced players with deranged sense of humor (like me), and it might also lead to newbies ask them "how the heck do you DO that?". The more I think of it the more I like it. Any contras I haven't discovered/thought about?
EDIT: I just had a chat with divVerent on IRC about this and he said that no matter what trolls remain trolls (which is rather logical), and they'd continue to troll anyway (which is logical, too). What he proposed would be to gradually reduce the damage you deal as your overall frag count gets higher and to use the authentication system that is in place for player recognition. I find that pretty smart (as usual with divVerent's ideas).
Won't much help against trolls, but beginner's servers should be monitored by system admins anyhow - as any other server.
Obviously the damage reduction should progress rather slowly, in order to give the beginners a longer time span to train. Or maybe we could have the damage reduction progress follow some algorithm that analyses kill/death ratio with taking into consideration how many other players are playing. That way we could have the damage reduction progress faster if a player is obviously dominating a lot of other players and not so fast if a player is dominating in a 3 or even 2 player game. And also to have it not progressing at all if a player just does an occasional frag but keeps playing at low positions on the score board for a long time (meaning, he doesn't improve at all, might be some players that fall into this category too).
RE: Improving beginner servers - Halogene - 11-18-2010
Bumping my post since the edit doesn't show in RSS feed :o)
RE: Improving beginner servers - Lee_Stricklin - 11-18-2010
(11-16-2010, 08:01 PM)Cuinnton Wrote: yes I would love to have a kdr included in the game. stats ftw. only problem is they will make the game more addictive 8)
Well it's a good game that is far more entertaining than the likes of Diablo, Quake 3, and other highly addictive games so I don't think people would complain too much if they got hooked on it.
(11-17-2010, 09:13 AM)Halogene Wrote: Yes, that would be a fun thing to do for some advanced players with deranged sense of humor (like me), and it might also lead to newbies ask them "how the heck do you DO that?". The more I think of it the more I like it. Any contras I haven't discovered/thought about?
EDIT: I just had a chat with divVerent on IRC about this and he said that no matter what trolls remain trolls (which is rather logical), and they'd continue to troll anyway (which is logical, too). What he proposed would be to gradually reduce the damage you deal as your overall frag count gets higher and to use the authentication system that is in place for player recognition. I find that pretty smart (as usual with divVerent's ideas).
Won't much help against trolls, but beginner's servers should be monitored by system admins anyhow - as any other server.
Obviously the damage reduction should progress rather slowly, in order to give the beginners a longer time span to train. Or maybe we could have the damage reduction progress follow some algorithm that analyses kill/death ratio with taking into consideration how many other players are playing. That way we could have the damage reduction progress faster if a player is obviously dominating a lot of other players and not so fast if a player is dominating in a 3 or even 2 player game. And also to have it not progressing at all if a player just does an occasional frag but keeps playing at low positions on the score board for a long time (meaning, he doesn't improve at all, might be some players that fall into this category too).
That damage reduction sounds like it should only be implemented on a few servers (such as the beginner servers) because that sounds like it could potentially piss players off and even break the game.
RE: Improving beginner servers - Halogene - 11-18-2010
Uhm, yes, that's why the caption is "improving beginner servers"... I wouldn't want this on regular servers, no way
RE: Improving beginner servers - ThePWTULN - 11-18-2010
I'm not too sure about gradually reducing damage, but hey, it might work.
Maybe it could be linked to a damage dealt/damage received ratio or something similar?
RE: Improving beginner servers - asyyy - 11-18-2010
vcall kickban im not pro lololol
bantime 15 minutes
solved.
RE: Improving beginner servers - PinkRobot - 11-18-2010
Yes, now if only noobs knew how to use the console to call a kickban vote... plus the fact you need people to understand the vote and press F1 or F2... which is even difficult at 'pro' servers.
Somebody fill me in here: wasn't/isn't the gradual increase in damage need to frag someone already implemented at DCC's Beginners Delight?
RE: Improving beginner servers - asyyy - 11-18-2010
Quote:Yes, now if only noobs knew how to use the console to call a kickban vote...Its time to improve interface then
(Instead of adding some obscure skill rating system that no one beside a handful of devs will ever understand and which wont help against trolls anyway.)
For example on mapvote screen (after endmatch) more options could be added. Like a "kick player" button that opens a list of all players on current server, allowing to start a kickvote with 2 clicks. A quick restart button makes sense too for revenge matches. I saw that working on UT3, why wouldn't it work on xonotic too?
Quote:plus the fact you need people to understand the vote and press F1 or F2... which is even difficult at 'pro' servers.Its not that they don't understand, they just don't care. And tbh a lot of votecalls are quite stupid/annoying (vmap dance on ctf servers while an intense match is going on....). Anyway, on mapvote screen everyone is focused on voting. Especially with super easy by-mouse voting I think thats very noob friendly. An ingame vote menu, controllable by mouse would be perfect, though I don't know if thats doable without spending too much (dev) time.
RE: Improving beginner servers - Rage_ATWM - 11-18-2010
(11-18-2010, 07:43 PM)asy7um Wrote: Its time to improve interface thenYou are absolutly right, but also partially off-topic because the vcall system (and most of in-game interfaces) is painful not only for beginners...
I guess that the nice work on new HUDs could also offer some solutions to make graphical vcalls (and more generally graphical binds) possible.
RE: Improving beginner servers - Mirio - 11-19-2010
Its faster to hit F1 or F2 while playing instead of something where you have to click at (while playing). I don't get whats so difficult there. I know that many people don't read the chat while playing, thats the problem. The "a vote has been called" message should be in the middle of the screen like in old times - kind of annoying , so people have to vote.
I also think that its better if its "not so easy" to know how to call a kick vote, because of all the dumbfucks abusing that.
RE: Improving beginner servers - Halogene - 11-19-2010
(11-19-2010, 12:29 AM)Mirio Wrote: I also think that its better if its "not so easy" to know how to call a kick vote, because of all the dumbfucks abusing that.Agree. I don't think relying on newbies to vote kickban the Im not Pro lololol will solve this. Making votes easier would most probably turn more newbies into trolls than anything else. Actually the problem can only be fully solved by human moderation, but the damage system will help newbies getting their first frags easier I believe.
Of course you won't be safe from abuse, but I figure trolls are rather dim (I don't mean you, [nsb]dim) and most of them shouldn't be able to find a way around that easily. Some persistant trolls may be smart enough, but they can be encountered by human moderation only anyway.
So to keep the really all-muscle-and-digestive-tract-no-brain trolls away, this system might be a good approach.
RE: Improving beginner servers - nowego4 - 11-19-2010
*nowego raises hand
I would be a "laser-bunny" on target practice servers!
RE: Improving beginner servers - Debugger - 11-21-2010
I think here could help a "ranking-system" (as discussed several times).
Some servers should be suggested (maybe as bookmarks, in a special way?) for new players, for them to have fun, too.
Another way of that could be that these beginner server arent shown to better players with higher rankings. (Of course, there will be trolls who reset their "gamedata" or something like that :/ )
When starting the game the first time there could be something like a screen to select our skill level (including "did you play nexuiz" or "did you play the xonotic git"
)
RE: Improving beginner servers - ThePWTULN - 11-21-2010
(11-19-2010, 12:29 AM)Mirio Wrote: I also think that its better if its "not so easy" to know how to call a kick vote, because of all the dumbfucks abusing that.Yes, some of the more abusable commands shouldn't be really easy to find - not that they were in Nexuiz, though. A lot of players didn't know about the console, let alone voting commands!
(11-21-2010, 07:01 AM)Debugger Wrote: Another way of that could be that these beginner server arent shown to better players with higher rankings. (Of course, there will be trolls who reset their "gamedata" or something like that :/ )Preventing experienced players from joining servers isn't the solution here. Preventing them from doing what they want to do (i.e. frag lots of newbies) is probably a better strategy
When starting the game the first time there could be something like a screen to select our skill level (including "did you play nexuiz" or "did you play the xonotic git"
RE: Improving beginner servers - Cortez666 - 11-21-2010
some time ago the dcc beginer server used a system where the more frags = higher handicap. but it didnt work well because you are nearly unable to get more then 3 frags in a row,
RE: Improving beginner servers - Sir Emeth Mimetes - 11-24-2010
[brainstorm]
What if you predicated the handicap off of frags-in-a-row instead of frags total? What kind of effect would that have on gameplay?
[/brainstorm]
RE: Improving beginner servers - Calinou - 11-25-2010
Yes. Or maybe the KpD (= Kills per Death, or Ratio). If your KpD is more than 1, then you have more handicap, if you have less than 1, you have less.