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+--- Thread: Thought y'all might liki some perspective... (/showthread.php?tid=1652)
Thought y'all might liki some perspective... - anark10n - 03-07-2011
Not sure any of you trawl the net for open source games while waiting for the completed version of Xonotic like i do. Came across this article that pretty much sums up some opinions i've had on the open source gaming scene.
Note: Set aside all love of open source when reading this. (And ... I ... uh ... hesitate to say this ... all points can be applied to Xonotic <RUN AWAY!> except maybe for the personality stuff. <STILL RUNNING!>)
http://wilbefast.com/2011/03/02/foss/
RE: Thought y'all might liki some perspective... - jngdwe - 03-07-2011
I've been saying forever to quit adding new stuff and just polish what we have in Xonotic =P. hurry up and just pick a balance set or just revert to what Nexuiz had, then proceed to finishing models, sounds, and polishing the overall graphic appeal. I honestly think the character and weapon models are ugly as meat pie(excluding the new weapon models).
RE: Thought y'all might liki some perspective... - theShadow - 03-07-2011
point 4 is exactly what happened with nexuiz.
thanks for posting this. it's important to get an outside perspective sometimes.
RE: Thought y'all might liki some perspective... - nowego4 - 03-07-2011
This is relevant stuff here anark10n, I don't think you need to worry about getting 30 nasty PMs
Before I begin, I'd like to comment that the blue cat is really cool.
Point 1: Technical Issues
I think this one is pretty well beaten down in Xonotic, I installed GIT and the preview on my Mac without hassle (Ok, maybe it's harder on Linux or Windows). I should point out here that Mac is one of the hardest platforms to compile for, and yet out of all that only three things have failed in-game (and two of these might just be because they don't have replacements yet as we're in beta). I call that pretty good ratios.
Point 2: Lack of Originality
Most of the author's examples throughout the article are RTSs or RPGs, which absolutely depend on a storyline. Xonotic is a First-Person-Shooter. It's not about saving the elves from the evil dwarves or perfecting a wavelength machine to ward off the invading phantom aliens. It's simply about killing and capping. Changing the gameplay and "originality" can only go so far before it's no longer a FPS.
Point 3: Lack of Personality
The GPL Nexuiz certainly suffered from this, and maybe some of the maps in Xonotic do, but the rest does not. At least I'm not aware of very many other major space-themed tron-style super-fast FPSs. But being a FOSS means anybody can edit anything about this game (although by far the most common are the maps) and that any server that isn't pure is not necessarily an accurate representation of the theme. I'm not saying maps that aren't default aren't good, there are some with nice gameplay and decent enough graphics, but then again we should remember that Super Mario Galaxy maps and player models probably shouldn't be shipped (or zipped, whatever) default. Anyway the author has a good point about this, many games commercial and FOSS alike suffer from this, and we need to keep our eye out so that we don't drift.
Point 4: Design by Comity
Nexuiz definitely fell to of lack of this. If it hadn't, we wouldn't be here in Xonotic. However I think this community's experience with mushroom management in Nexuiz will prevent any blind eye to this in the future. Now we have Coordinators for every subject to turn the "hundreds of passing contributers" into something useful. And of course we have a few stable contributers too––Xonotic is big enough to retain a handful.
Wilbefast Wrote:FOSS games are vulnerable to feature-creep and in many cases just don’t feel “finished” because they never really are.I'd have to agree with this part of his arguement, the GPL Nexuiz really had to many gamemodes. Xonotic has as many (which could be disscused I suppose) but there are no longer the same old ones which were never played. Now we have a few more servers playing these, and a few less playing the usual ones. This is the way it should be, balanced. Voteable servers have helped this too.
However I think the second part of the sentence is unrelated to the first. If a game doesn't feel finished, it's because something is still in development––and almost always this something makes the game better. And since FOSS games don't have a hard-disk release, they don't have to cap off their work, and hence forth move faster.
Other quotes and comments:
Wilbefast Wrote:I’ve developed this vague impression that most artists use Mac, most programmers use Linux and almost everyone else uses Windows.
Very true, I've found this to be the case too. This is probably because Mac has the best graphic capabilities and screens, people who use Linux have to be techie anyway, and Windows is so full of viruses that they've infected everybody else's homes and lives.
-Warsow 0.5 Trailer-
We could learn a lesson from this person(s), a very well put together video. Tempted me to go download it and try it just to tell certain individuals to go play Warsow it they think the physics are to fast, then they can come back and it will feel nice and slow
The AlienArena trailer on the other hand..
-Frogatto-
Seemed very personalized, although the graphics were rather bad. Maybe we could have in-game text window for the tutorial?
All in all this guy seems pretty balanced, and experienced too.
RE: Thought y'all might liki some perspective... - The mysterious Mr. 4m - 03-07-2011
Hm, interesting.
RE: Thought y'all might liki some perspective... - anark10n - 03-09-2011
Oh good, I haven't been banned for my act of heresy.
Down to the article in question. The article does concentrate mostly on RTSs and RPGs, the two genres providing the widest scope for different gameplay strategies and mechanics and all that, so Xonotic really doesn't fail on he point of originality as such, but one can still say gameplay in Xonotic is quite dated. The whole jump/crouch-ing from one end of the map to the other has been done, refined, and abused. Perhaps more animation driven movement and actions would go along way in competitive gameplay, without sacrificing the fast pace of course.
The problem with Xonotic does not lie with just balancing only. An example, the player view; most will not have noticed this, and maybe most won't care, but think about it for a moment: you fire up Xonotic, you pick a cool player model, and then you enter the arena, and you're suddenly a floating gun. Yes, i'm talking about hands. It's rather disappointing that the only one who actually gets to see any part of the player model is your killer; it leaves the player with a sense that he is simply a camera attached to a gun as opposed to being the badass character he chose to play with. A minor fact, yes, but it's the little things together that can make a great game, make no mistake, it's the little things.
The stuff about personality, i'm not too hung up on, although it is a plus when everything feels unified and all that, but i rather like deviant maps (and no, not super mario maps, super mario maps belong in super mario, they have no place in FPSs; the same with household rooms, i do not want to feel like Buzz Lightyear while playing Xonotic), especially seeing as Xonotic is mostly multi-player, it reflects on the creativity of the community. I think the whole unified theme becomes more an issue when you look at single-player.
Nice to see a community not getting all uptight about criticism. Definite plus.
RE: Thought y'all might liki some perspective... - theShadow - 03-09-2011
yeah, I wouldn't worry about people getting angry about criticism. This community is awesome.
RE: Thought y'all might liki some perspective... - BurningPi - 03-11-2011
(03-09-2011, 04:58 AM)anark10n Wrote: The problem with Xonotic does not lie with just balancing only. An example, the player view; most will not have noticed this, and maybe most won't care, but think about it for a moment: you fire up Xonotic, you pick a cool player model, and then you enter the arena, and you're suddenly a floating gun. Yes, i'm talking about hands. It's rather disappointing that the only one who actually gets to see any part of the player model is your killer; it leaves the player with a sense that he is simply a camera attached to a gun as opposed to being the badass character he chose to play with.
MY FEET! I CAN'T SEE MY FEET!
(03-09-2011, 04:58 AM)anark10n Wrote: A minor fact, yes, but it's the little things together that can make a great game, make no mistake, it's the little things.
Agreed.
RE: Thought y'all might liki some perspective... - unfa - 04-04-2011
Wilbefast Wrote:I’ve developed this vague impression that most artists use Mac, most programmers use Linux and almost everyone else uses Windows.
I use Linux, not Mac
I also don't use windows. I live in a bunker.
RE: Thought y'all might liki some perspective... - vede - 04-09-2011
anark10n, your comments espouse a viewpoint that I think the Xonotic community has been really lacking lately. That is, the attention to small details about ways the player subconsciously views the game world, not hardline gameplay details. I agree entirely that we really need hands. It would really help to drive home the idea that you're playing an actual character, and not controlling a gun, and would help players get into the game a lot more. Of course, other people here will probably make comments about how it doesn't affect gameplay, isn't important at this point, or would distract from the gameplay.
RE: Thought y'all might like some perspective... - anark10n - 04-13-2011
The little things. And in a genre as restrictive as FPSs, there isn't a whole lot you can do with the gameplay details. most genres haven't moved far beyond their '90s origins, but the FPS has moved the least in terms of gameplay. it's left to the little details to distinguish one fps from another. fast gameplay: quake did it first, an age ago; wall kicks or whatever remix it's at now: warsow had it on release (i think); secondary fire modes: these days three is the standard (but not necessary, i'm merely pointing out how far things have come).
all that's left is the game world for an fps to set itself apart, and the player's connection to it. hands are only a small part of it. another small part of it is something most quake-clone FPSs have in common: a complete disregard for animation for animations. It doesn't help the cause when your prey takes to steps but has moved the distance of five; and this something no amount of hands and feet will resolve, it will only give a player the impression of floating. No connection to the world, just passing through, and dying on their out, no stake to keep them in it. If the player takes 5 steps and covers the distance of a corridor in a second, then fine, so long has he is seen to take them. Fast gameplay, slow animation: jarring isn't the word for it.
Just my two cents. But a lot of two cents together make a dollar.
oh, and is there a way to change the title of a thread here, that typo is really starting to get to me
RE: Thought y'all might liki some perspective... - The mysterious Mr. 4m - 04-13-2011
i liki the typo.
Recently, i collected all of my cents and brought them to the bank and got 57 Euros! i think they made a mistake....