(05-19-2012, 06:28 PM)kojn^ Wrote: Not a fan of the fast weapon-switching at all purely because it's too fast and making everything too spammy, fast weapon switching is fine when not firing ofcourse.

(05-19-2012, 06:59 PM)FruitieX Wrote: I completely agree with this.

Xonotic is a bit on the spammy side still with the very fast weapon combos. In my opinion, there should be a longer delay after firing a weapon until you can switch to another one (not so much that weapon combos become entirely useless, just enough to remove the constant fire / switch / fire / switch / fire / switch spam you often see). Note that I also don't want to put in a delay between merely switching weapons! Only a slight one that activates after firing your weapon and then immediately trying to switch away to another one.

Maybe this wouldn't be as bad combined with the idea I had in my previous post [this post was about adding a dedicated laserjump button that doubles as melee functionality], because you would then still be able to laserjump (and melee) as fast as (if not even faster than) before, after firing a weapon.

The ability to spam weapon combos has always been something that annoyed me about Nexuiz and Xonotic, if you want to streamline the gameplay I think it's also important that you focus on this issue. Hopefully me and kojn aren't the only ones thinking like this.

(05-19-2012, 07:20 PM)W4RP1G Wrote: I like weapon combos, but I'd be ok with them being toned down just a bit if that's possible, I just don't want to lose them. After playing Xonotic and getting used to weapon combos, I feel restricted in games like Warsow and QL because there is such a delay when switching.

From what I gather, you guys would like to reduce spam while keeping the weapon combos. Idk if that's really possible though, the mortar is a pretty spammy weapon even without combos.

This is how I see it. Really close quarter battles are curently extremely fast paced because of the weapon switching. The Arc Cannon might change things so that close quarter battles immediately go to the LG(like in QL) rather than weapon combos. So, is weapon combo spam at a distance really an issue? The Nex seems to decide how medium-long range battles will go more than anything, so would reducing mortar and rocket spam do anything but make the Nex even more useful?

Oddly, this discussion is calling weapon combos too spammy, but they don't even compare to the amount of spam you see from the crylink, hagar, and electro.

(05-19-2012, 08:14 PM)kojn^ Wrote:

(05-19-2012, 07:20 PM)W4RP1G Wrote: Oddly, this discussion is calling weapon combos too spammy, but they don't even compare to the amount of spam you see from the crylink, hagar, and electro.

Yes, those weapons are classed as spam weapons. But when you combine them in quick succession, it becomes a big(ger) mess, that's part of the issue FruitieX is explaining, he is not saying weapons are too spammy individually (because in Xonotic there really not any worse then any other FPS i've played at all, and most FPS have a 'spam' weapon/s).

And if you think about it, if weapon combos were slower slightly, the nex would not be as strong, because you would not be able to go back and forth so quick, as it is the most used weapon in these 'combos'.

And whilst the LG would not be used in combo's it still suffers the same problem as the MG. Damage output potential is higher with combo's then it is with using the mg for example, way higher, unless you have a incredible aim and movement with it (I actually do have a very good aim with it and movement at times, but I'm one of the few exceptions and even I struggle with it vs combos).

Last time I played L0, he was commenting the same problem I see, can't do enough damage enough of the time because damage output via combo's is quicker & higher then you can output with a weapon such as the MG..and the MG is not weak, it's DPS is in comparison with the other weapons when used well, so this clearly is not an issue with weapon damage.

UT2003 had fast weapon switching but it did not have fast weapon switching style like Xonotic when you can switch so quickly after each shot fired, and so whilst fast weapon switching was there, it didn't have anywhere near the same issues that Xonotic does in this area.

Hope that clears your Question up. FruitieX is simply suggesting that gameplay would be improved if they are slowed down somewhat when firing.

If anything, it would help people appreciate the other more under-used weapons more this way, atleast they get a chance to compete. A Toned down DPS via combos will mean the weapon set turns into a more balanced set.

btw, just wanted to post that mainly to you W4RPIG, this can (and should) be bought to attention a little down the line, but everyone should concentrate now on Samual's first post suggestions.

(05-20-2012, 05:35 AM)FruitieX Wrote:

(05-19-2012, 07:20 PM)W4RP1G Wrote: I feel restricted in games like Warsow and QL because there is such a delay when switching.

Yeah, we don't want to take it that far I think...

(05-19-2012, 07:20 PM)W4RP1G Wrote: This is how I see it. Really close quarter battles are curently extremely fast paced because of the weapon switching.

Battles can be fast paced without weapon switching too! I think ideally you should need to focus a bit more on usage of the weapon you are currently holding, rather than spamming everything you have and switching through your weapons like a lunatic.

(05-19-2012, 07:20 PM)W4RP1G Wrote: So, is weapon combo spam at a distance really an issue?

I think the issue is mostly in close range battles.

(05-19-2012, 07:20 PM)W4RP1G Wrote: Oddly, this discussion is calling weapon combos too spammy, but they don't even compare to the amount of spam you see from the crylink, hagar, and electro.

The problem is not that a particular weapon can fire several (relatively) weak shots quickly, but rather that you can for example repeatedly switch between two very powerful weapons such as the RL/Nex and avoid their refire delays. If anything, combos like these leave the weak and "spammy" weapons underpowered. I hope Samual will also consider the usefulness of weapon combos when balancing the weapons: you shouldn't gain a *huge* advantage by switching between two particular weapons over using the right weapon in a particular situation.

Sure, stuff like pushing someone into the air using mortar, then nexing him is still fine IMO. But endless spam switching between RL / nex / mortar needs to stop, it will still sure rack up a lot more DPS (damage per second) than if you just concentrate on one of these weapons. It just shouldn't be mandatory to spam switch in order to remain competitive!

Edit: I'll make another thread for this discussion, linking it here in a minute...

(05-20-2012, 05:57 AM)rafallus Wrote: 2)Fiddle with charging action so that first shot after drawing nex is less damaging than next ones, unless you wait to charge. If it had to affect subsequent shots too, nex would be rather underpowered overall. My idea would be 45 or 50 for first hit, normally charging to 90, if you wait, and leave next shots as they are now.

(05-20-2012, 06:08 AM)_Subzero_ Wrote: There already was a week-long discussion of this, starting here:
http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=2599&page=2
which then went here http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=2614

(05-20-2012, 06:08 AM)_Subzero_ Wrote: And according to this http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=2672&pid=35727#pid35727 it already got fixed in the balance.
So why new thread and similar discussion all over again?

(05-20-2012, 06:33 AM)FruitieX Wrote: So here's an on-topic thread for discussing this specific issue!

(05-20-2012, 06:33 AM)FruitieX Wrote:

(05-20-2012, 06:08 AM)_Subzero_ Wrote: And according to this http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=2672&pid=35727#pid35727 it already got fixed in the balance.
So why new thread and similar discussion all over again?

This is news to me.

I hope they tweaked the delay after firing a weapon, not the duration of the animation you see when actually switching weapons.

(05-20-2012, 06:49 AM)_Subzero_ Wrote: Note that it was dane precisely to tweak combo balance.

Quote:Xonotic is a bit on the spammy side still with the very fast weapon combos.

(05-20-2012, 11:03 AM)Samual Wrote: OH MY FUCKING GOD WHAT HAVE I DONE


I'm not even going to read this thread, I don't have time for it.

(05-20-2012, 05:12 PM)Rage_ATWM Wrote: this also:
http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=2616