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+--- Thread: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated (/showthread.php?tid=3106)
In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - m4ce - 06-04-2012
What am I missing?
Last night I was bored, so I decided to download 0.6.0 and see if there was anyone online in my timezone. By some small miracle, there was, so I joined and started to play. Anyway, I was trying out different things, noticed some changes in the physics and the splash weapons seem to have more 'push', the server was in warmup mode so I was trying different weapon combinations.
The other guy was just using Nex. I shoot about 40 on Nex, and the other guy was (I estimate) shooting closer to 60, and I had some really annoying packet loss. The combination of better accuracy with Nex and the packet loss meant I was getting fragged a lot. At one point I put 6 mortars at his feet in a row, not even the first pain sound. I tried most of the weapons in combination with Nex, mortar just didn't do enough damage. Rocket just got me killed through Nex beam detonation, so in the end I decided just to stick with Nex. I asked the other guy if it was just a one weapon game and in reply he asked if I wanted him to use more than one weapon. "Sure" I said.
After he started using weapons other than Nex, I really started to get some frags. I just stuck with Nex and his mortar and rocket launcher did most of the (self) damage for me. I have a feeling that he thought he would get a lot more frags by using combos, but it really gave me an advantage once he started using the splash weapons and reduced the disadvantage of his greater hitscan accuracy and the annoying packet loss.
So what am I missing here? It seems to me to be a one weapon game. Sure you could pull out the MG to finish someone off, especially if they were fleeing, but apart from that do you have to be in the top 1% of players to effectively use any other weapon besides Nex?
RE: Ask your questions about Xonotic here - Justin - 06-04-2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1epj5I1efo&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL8B819BF820D3BF0A
If it were one weapon game I wouldn't play it. And many others I suppose.
Nex gun is important but you can't stick only to it against professional players. Your opponent probably was a misnta player, not experienced about using other weapons.
RE: Ask your questions about Xonotic here - W4RP1G - 06-04-2012
I personally get raped by nexers that have terrible movement and use no other weapons, but I noticed that this isn't an issue for better players.
I think the truth in duels is that you have to have good nex aim to compete. Yes, you have to use other weapons. But if you have lousy nex aim(as I do) and use other weapons well, vs someone with great nex aim, you are done. Or course, there are other factors in play, like your movement(which can make you very hard to hit) and map control(you can control the megas to make yourself withstand more nex shots, or even control the nex). But, the nex is super powerful in a 1v1. You'll also notice that the godly players have great nex aim, but also great aim with everything else and great weapon combo use. Really, you gotta be good at everything, but someone who's great with 1 weapon can destroy someone who is mediocre with all.
RE: Ask your questions about Xonotic here - m4ce - 06-05-2012
(06-04-2012, 06:47 AM)Justin Wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1epj5I1efo&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL8B819BF820D3BF0AYour video shows two players in the top 1%, so it confirms my assertion that only the top 1% should ever use a weapon other than Nex.
If it were one weapon game I wouldn't play it. And many others I suppose.
(06-04-2012, 06:47 AM)Justin Wrote: Nex gun is important but you can't stick only to it against professional players.
Right, so the answer to my question is Yes, you need to be in the top 1% of players to effectively use any other weapon besides Nex. If you are a beginner, you should practice and use Nex exclusively.
(06-04-2012, 06:47 AM)Justin Wrote: Your opponent probably was a misnta player, not experienced about using other weapons.And yet, just by using the Nex my opponent could frag me continuously when I was using splash weapons, but when the situation was reversed and I was using Nex and he was using splash weapons, I started to get frags myself.
So, two non-professional, bottom 99% percent players met, and the determining factor as to when either player was scoring kills was NOT using weapons other than Nex. Ergo: use splash weapons: die, use Nex: kill.
Sounds like a one weapon game to me.
RE: Ask your questions about Xonotic here - Cyber Killer - 06-05-2012
@m4ce: take a look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlb_fnGuQ8w - this is me during one of the recent tournaments (skip to ~4:00 to jump to the match start). I'm nowhere near the top 1% (not even the top 90% to be honest) and yet I got a few frags with other weapons even against ppl that were using the nex.
Ergo: not a 1 weapon game :-P.
RE: Ask your questions about Xonotic here - Mirio - 06-05-2012
But why do you think these players belong to the best? Because they can handle more than 1 weapon - that's just skill.
RE: Ask your questions about Xonotic here - Chryyz - 06-05-2012
(06-05-2012, 05:59 AM)m4ce Wrote:(06-04-2012, 06:47 AM)Justin Wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1epj5I1efo&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL8B819BF820D3BF0AYour video shows two players in the top 1%, so it confirms my assertion that only the top 1% should ever use a weapon other than Nex.
If it were one weapon game I wouldn't play it. And many others I suppose.
(06-04-2012, 06:47 AM)Justin Wrote: Nex gun is important but you can't stick only to it against professional players.
Right, so the answer to my question is Yes, you need to be in the top 1% of players to effectively use any other weapon besides Nex. If you are a beginner, you should practice and use Nex exclusively.
(06-04-2012, 06:47 AM)Justin Wrote: Your opponent probably was a misnta player, not experienced about using other weapons.And yet, just by using the Nex my opponent could frag me continuously when I was using splash weapons, but when the situation was reversed and I was using Nex and he was using splash weapons, I started to get frags myself.
So, two non-professional, bottom 99% percent players met, and the determining factor as to when either player was scoring kills was NOT using weapons other than Nex. Ergo: use splash weapons: die, use Nex: kill.
Sounds like a one weapon game to me.
Sounds like a troll to me. Or are you really this dense?
Weapons you've practiced with > weapons you haven't practiced with. It's as simple as that. He was also probably stacking health and armor while you repeatedly threw yourself at him.
RE: Ask your questions about Xonotic here - Mr. Bougo - 06-05-2012
Woopsie. Move this to its own thread please.
RE: Ask your questions about Xonotic here - Justin - 06-05-2012
m4ce: No offense but as far as I can see you are willing this game to be one weapon fps. The point is: Nex is the easiest weapon to use (srsly!). All it really requires from player is: AIM. It deals planty of dmg, okey. However nicely done electro combo deals more then 120 dmg, while 2 (3) shotgun slaps can kill an opponent with decent stack. Rocket in the face generally kills everyone, If not you just need to use some mg to finish the work. Have you seen properly used CRYLINK in action? I guess not.
Try other weapons, learn how to use them and then reconsider.
RE: Ask your questions about Xonotic here - m4ce - 06-06-2012
(06-05-2012, 06:58 AM)Cyber Killer Wrote: @m4ce: take a look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlb_fnGuQ8w - this is me during one of the recent tournaments (skip to ~4:00 to jump to the match start). I'm nowhere near the top 1% (not even the top 90% to be honest) and yet I got a few frags with other weapons even against ppl that were using the nex.
Ergo: not a 1 weapon game :-P.
I watched most of the match. It was FFA, so hard to tell who was actually doing most of the damage. Anyway, you got fragged by Nex A LOT, and you got some kill-steals with the shotty after someone had been Nexed by another player. You got a couple of nice shotty frags against someone who couldn't hit you at all. The rest was mostly kills in the 'fog of war' that FFA is.
Anyway, apparently I am a dense troll, so I will drop this enquiry.
GLHF.
RE: Ask your questions about Xonotic here - Cyber Killer - 06-06-2012
Quote:you got fragged by Nex A LOT
True, and it's one of the reasons that I hate nex with a passion. If there was a mutator that removes nex from maps (or replaces it with a different gun) I'd gladly play with it always enabled.
Anyway - my point stays - you can frag just as good with other weapons too.
RE: Ask your questions about Xonotic here - tZork - 06-06-2012
(06-06-2012, 05:49 AM)Cyber Killer Wrote: ....If there was a mutator that removes nex from maps (or replaces it with a different gun) I'd gladly play with it always enabled...g_weaponreplace_nex "tuba"
RE: Ask your questions about Xonotic here - Chryyz - 06-06-2012
(06-06-2012, 05:20 AM)m4ce Wrote:(06-05-2012, 06:58 AM)Cyber Killer Wrote: @m4ce: take a look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlb_fnGuQ8w - this is me during one of the recent tournaments (skip to ~4:00 to jump to the match start). I'm nowhere near the top 1% (not even the top 90% to be honest) and yet I got a few frags with other weapons even against ppl that were using the nex.
Ergo: not a 1 weapon game :-P.
I watched most of the match. It was FFA, so hard to tell who was actually doing most of the damage. Anyway, you got fragged by Nex A LOT, and you got some kill-steals with the shotty after someone had been Nexed by another player. You got a couple of nice shotty frags against someone who couldn't hit you at all. The rest was mostly kills in the 'fog of war' that FFA is.
Anyway, apparently I am a dense troll, so I will drop this enquiry.
GLHF.
You are not asking a question, you're trying to prove a point. A point that is flawed by the fact that you clearly do not understand what you're talking about. You will repeatedly disregard any attempts to convince you of anything other than what you have in your mind right now, grasping at anything in sight to do so. So yes, you're either a troll, or you're just being dense. Regardless, I will offer you one last treat.
Has it ever occured to you that you can only use the nex when you can actually see your target? Furthermore, the fact that you need to charge it to reach its full potential and the refire time makes solely using the nex a disadvantage. Experienced players can position themselves strategically for a greater view over the map, but you cannot see everything (with the exception of open box maps). So... how do you combat someone who is just camping around with the nex? Curve a rocket into them. Bounce mortars off the wall. Distract them and move in from another path to close in on them from behind. Bounce them around to disrupt their aim. Really in most cases all you need to do is knock them away once so that they have to reposition their crosshair while you close on them. Once you have closed the distance, the nex loses its advantage due to decreased damage and refire.
Now let us address the arguments you can level against the above information.
Why should I have to go to such measures just to counter the nex? Doesn't that mean it's better?
No it doesn't. The nex's primary role is a long range damage dealer. If you were to fire a rocket at long range, or a mortar, you have to wait for the projectile to hit the target, which gives them plenty of time to dodge if you're not accustomed to predicting their movement paths or controlling them. Jumping around a corner and immediately mortaring, rocketing, or lasering someone with the nex takes a fraction of a second, and will typically make them miss their first shot, which means the full damage was wasted on the wall. At that point the refire will deal significantly less. Curving a rocket around a corner and into them reveals the weakness of their position and typically encourages them to move to another, giving you an opportunity. If they don't move... well... keep firing rockets or mortars until they're dead.
What about maps with lots of open spaces and very little cover? Wouldn't the nex be much stronger than any other weapon here?
Yes. That's a map flaw, not a weapon flaw. Open maps should not have the nex included on them in the first place. They should have weapons that encourage close confrontation.
But you can use the nex at all ranges right? Doesn't that mean it's the most versatile?
No, controlling your opponent's movement with mortars and rockets, spamming with the mg or hagar (the hagar is the most difficult weapon to control), and comboing with the shotgun or firing crylink to reduce movement while still dealing high damage are all more advantageous due to their ease of use. However, if you're not practiced enough with these weapons to know how to actually hit your opponent with them, they will obviously seem weaker. If you couldn't hit your opponent with the nex, you'd think it was shit too, wouldn't you?
Any other questions? I'd also be happy to log into a server and kill you repeatedly with the laser alone while you use the nex to prove a point if you think that might help.
(06-06-2012, 07:57 AM)tZork Wrote: No, the point of notices is to be.. well noticed, and and not removable by user tough any normal means. However using it irritates allot of ppl to no end, so im contemplating how to make something effective but less intrusive.
1. Allow early dismissal via key press or click.
2. Have it so that it only appears for repeat clients once. (Like the ventrilo notice function).
Notices are annoying as hell.
RE: Ask your questions about Xonotic here - m4ce - 06-07-2012
(06-06-2012, 09:30 AM)Chryyz Wrote: You are not asking a question, you're trying to prove a point.Apparently.
(06-06-2012, 09:30 AM)Chryyz Wrote: A point that is flawed by the fact that you clearly do not understand what you're talking about.If you insist. I have been playing video games of all genres since 1981, but I haven't learned much.
(06-06-2012, 09:30 AM)Chryyz Wrote: You will repeatedly disregard any attempts to convince you of anything other than what you have in your mind right now,Wow, you read the future too.
(06-06-2012, 09:30 AM)Chryyz Wrote: Has it ever occured to you that you can only use the nex when you can actually see your target?Has it ever occurred to you that a tiny splash radius makes the above true for splash weapons as well?
Quote:Curve a rocket into them. Bounce mortars off the wall.This is easy as using a hitscan weapon is it? Thanks for making me feel bad about my skills with Xonotic weapons.
Quote:Once you have closed the distance, the nex loses its advantage due to decreased damage and refire.The Nex does less damage at close range?
Quote:Curving a rocket around a corner and into them reveals the weakness of their position and typically encourages them to move to another, giving you an opportunity. If they don't move... well... keep firing rockets or mortars until they're dead.Why wouldn't you just Nex them while they are firing those rockets? It will cause them to self-frag from the rocket detonation at close range.
Quote:However, if you're not practiced enough with these weapons to know how to actually hit your opponent with them, they will obviously seem weaker.So they are harder to use than the Nex right?
Quote: If you couldn't hit your opponent with the nex, you'd think it was shit too, wouldn't you?No, you don't even have to hit someone with the Nex to damage them, just close enough to detonate the rocket or mortar they are firing at you. As it happens I am a LOT more practiced on splash weapons than hitscan because my reflexes just aren't so good anymore. What you are telling me is that I need to practice Xonotic's splash weapons because they are different from every other game's splash weapons. I have no trouble fragging people with rocket in Quake Live or even in Nexuiz, so obviously I AM MISSING SOMETHING. SOMETHING YOU HAVE NOT ADDRESSED SO FAR.
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - Mr. Bougo - 06-07-2012
Thanks to a messy collaborative effort from C.Brutail and me, this discussion was split into its own thread.
Which means it can now be locked. Mind your words.
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - -Lo- - 06-07-2012
It's true, nex is too strong. You can use it in long-, mid- and even close-range fights. What I dont like about it is that you dont have any disadvantages in close-range fights as you can switch to any other weapon in a ms after missing a shot. Also the Nex-to-AnyOtherWeapon-combo makes spawnfragging way too easy because of the instant weapon switch.
The only way to fix this is to have a switch delay at least until the minimum reload. You could still make combos the other way around, but you could not enter a fight with a 90 dmg nexgun shot without having a disadvantage due to the wrong weapon choice - keep in mind that the nexgun is supposed to be a mid-, long-range weapon (no weapon should be strong in all distances).
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - tZork - 06-07-2012
There sort of is a "nex switch penalty". As long as your not holding the nex, it will not be charging up to full strength.
The nex do 90 damage max. It re-fires maximum once every 1.2 seconds. It reach max charge abt 4 seconds after fired. (as you see, its DPS is not much compared to other weapons) So if you just keep shooting that gun, or switching away after each shot you will not be doign all that much damage. In a duel this may not mean much as each clash is usually separated by some time, however for other game play it evens out well IMO.
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - Chryyz - 06-07-2012
This thread is now about the rail gun in Quake Live.
"y rg do so much dmg? 2 ez 2 use an can use 4 anyting. roket hurdr 2 use."
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - -Lo- - 06-07-2012
(06-07-2012, 05:59 AM)tZork Wrote: There sort of is a "nex switch penalty". As long as your not holding the nex, it will not be charging up to full strength.
The nex do 90 damage max. It re-fires maximum once every 1.2 seconds. It reach max charge abt 4 seconds after fired. (as you see, its DPS is not much compared to other weapons) So if you just keep shooting that gun, or switching away after each shot you will not be doign all that much damage. In a duel this may not mean much as each clash is usually separated by some time, however for other game play it evens out well IMO.
But still, you can start off every fight (any range) with a 90 dmg nexgun shot, then make an instant weapon switch. My point is that in a close range combat this means that you just delt 90 dmg without having any disadvantages for using it. So no matter if you hit your shot or not, threses no risk starting every fight with a nexgun shot.
This is were the weapon switch delay comes into play so that a player has to calculate if he is willing to take the risk of using the nex, because he will eat alot of dmg without being able to defend himself for some time (if he misses the shot or the player survives).
Thats why a weapon switch delay makes the nexgun more balanced compared to the other weapons, more interesting to use, and adds another skill element of weapon decision making.
For me the nexgun at the current stage does not support making well-consided weapon choices, which would encourage players to also use other weapons more often in the right situations.
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - Chryyz - 06-07-2012
(06-07-2012, 09:20 AM)-Lo- Wrote:(06-07-2012, 05:59 AM)tZork Wrote: There sort of is a "nex switch penalty". As long as your not holding the nex, it will not be charging up to full strength.
The nex do 90 damage max. It re-fires maximum once every 1.2 seconds. It reach max charge abt 4 seconds after fired. (as you see, its DPS is not much compared to other weapons) So if you just keep shooting that gun, or switching away after each shot you will not be doign all that much damage. In a duel this may not mean much as each clash is usually separated by some time, however for other game play it evens out well IMO.
But still, you can start off every fight (any range) with a 90 dmg nexgun shot, then make an instant weapon switch. My point is that in a close range combat this means that you just delt 90 dmg without having any disadvantages for using it. So no matter if you hit your shot or not, threses no risk starting every fight with a nexgun shot.
This is were the weapon switch delay comes into play so that a player has to calculate if he is willing to take the risk of using the nex, because he will eat alot of dmg without being able to defend himself for some time (if he misses the shot or the player survives).
Thats why a weapon switch delay makes the nexgun more balanced compared to the other weapons, more interesting to use, and adds another skill element of weapon decision making.
For me the nexgun at the current stage does not support making well-consided weapon choices, which would encourage players to also use other weapons more often in the right situations.
Play QuakeLive? Comboing is a major part of Xonotic gameplay. Introducing a weapon switch delay effectively kills comboing and slows the game significantly.
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - TickleMeElmo - 06-07-2012
I just want to throw this in there. The rocket launcher in current build against 95% of players is a pwnmobile. I see mid level and upper mid levels constantly trying to use the Nex on many of the maps. The fact is most of the stock and quality maps are largely close quarters, or mid range. This dampens the nexs power, and unless you a 1%er then the Nex is more likely to get you killed in many of these situations. Thus it is definitively not a one weapon game.
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - -Lo- - 06-07-2012
(06-07-2012, 09:48 AM)Chryyz Wrote: Play QuakeLive? Comboing is a major part of Xonotic gameplay. Introducing a weapon switch delay effectively kills comboing and slows the game significantly.
Thank you for this productive contribution to this discussion! It's somehow frustrating to make suggesionts just to get answers like this...
If you would have read my previous posts you would know that I mentioned doing combos is still possible the other way around.
It seems like for you the definition of a combo is a weapon switch. Imo a combo is sth. like this for example: you pop up an enemy into the air with the mortar, maybe do another shot with the RL and then finish off with the nex mid-air.
Please read through my post again and try to understand my concerns regarding the instant weapon switch after the 1st shot in close range fights and then contribute something useful rather than just "play quake live".
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - Chryyz - 06-07-2012
(06-07-2012, 12:04 PM)-Lo- Wrote: Thank you for this productive contribution to this discussion! It's somehow frustrating to make suggesionts just to get answers like this...
If you would have read my previous posts you would know that I mentioned doing combos is still possible the other way around.
It seems like for you the definition of a combo is a weapon switch. Imo a combo is sth. like this for example: you pop up an enemy into the air with the mortar, maybe do another shot with the RL and then finish off with the nex mid-air.
Please read through my post again and try to understand my concerns regarding the instant weapon switch after the 1st shot in close range fights and then contribute something useful rather than just "play quake live".
I'm not going to the scour the forums or search everyone's post history every time I reply to a post. If you're at all concerned about people not having a full handle on your arguments when you post a reply in a completely different thread, you have two choices. 1. Reconsider expanding your point to an entirely different thread (which is annoying and spammy in the first place) 2. Cite your previous posts.
Weapon comboing relies on being able to weapon switch. When you see combos in other games, take fighting games or RPGs for example, do you see your character stand around for 2 seconds and then attack? No, combos are primarily defined by a series of varied attacks performed in rapid succession. What kind of a weapon switch delay are you looking at? .5 seconds? 1 second? 1.5 seconds? 2 seconds? I encourage you to keep in mind the refire rate for rockets is 1.1 seconds, and the nex is 1.5, so any significant weapon swap delay would mean that sitting on that weapon on just refiring would be just as good as switching. Right now switching is the obvious choice because otherwise you would have to wait to refire. I also wouldn't consider a .5 second delay enough to 'tactically' influence my weapon choices. It would just be an annoyance that would, as I said, slow down the game.
The only two people I know to repeatedly use the nex in combos (short to mid range) are myself and Bolwind. Bolwind is no surprise. He favors hitscan weapons, and the nex is king among them. Mine strings from a habit developed many years playing Nex, and it is one I've been trying to break. As for initiating with the nex... explain to me why occasionally opening with it is a bad thing. You don't always open with the nex. In fact, there are many situations where trying to open with the nex will hurt you, because you have to expose yourself to do it, and often times I've been hit in the face with a secondary mortar or a rocket for the trouble. As it stands, the nex is a very hit-and-run weapon, with the added benefit of being able to stall your opponent in the air, or quickly disrupt the movement of a fast moving target with a twitch shot. Again, if the pace of Xonotic doesn't suit you, I hear Quake Live is significantly slower, with the tactical balance you're looking for. That is, you will have to decide whether you're going to be close range (rocket), long range (rail), or a varying degree of ranges (lg).
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - rafallus - 06-07-2012
You may have a point. As I see it, there are two sides of combo with nex:
1. Switch to Nex (from sth else) - example: you fling someone in the air with mortar/rl then finish him off with nex in mid air. Stylish - probably nobody wants it gone
2. Switch from Nex (to sth else) - you missed with Nex? No problem, just switch to mortar/rl and pummel them, by the time you hit, nex will be ready (double checked, I may not be fast enough, but by the time I switched to another weapon from nex and back, nex was always ready to go as soon as I switched back - or rather as fast as I can react. I wonder if anyone runs into situations, where it isn't). In other words, penalty for missing with nex is not being vulnerable, just having to switch to other weapon and try again. Not too terrible to handle by most players, you switch quickly and just keep on pummeling the enemy, you're not exactly vulnerable, even if you miss.
Any change IMO should be aimed at 2, but leave 1 intact.
RE: In which a discussion on nex strength gets heated - Chryyz - 06-07-2012
(06-07-2012, 12:50 PM)rafallus Wrote: 2. Switch from Nex (to sth else) - you missed with Nex? No problem, just switch to mortar/rl and pummel them, by the time you hit, nex will be ready (double checked, I may not be fast enough, but by the time I switched to another weapon from nex and back, nex was always ready to go as soon as I switched back - or rather as fast as I can react. I wonder if anyone runs into situations, where it isn't).
There's a tiny delay upon switching back, but those of us who are used to it compensate. It's only really noticeable for those who are just getting into rapidly switching between weapons during fights.