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[SOLVED] Red Cross logo is copyrighted. - Printable Version

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Red Cross logo is copyrighted. - Harmata - 03-27-2013

Red cross on a white background, we have it on the megahealth. I think it should be replaced with other symbol or placed on the different background color, just to keep our game truly FOS.

Changing the background color would be enough, but we can experiment with other symbols, like a pill, a red capital letter H (for Health), a syringe or the Xonotic logo. What would you say?

RE: Red Cross logo is copyrighted. - Mr. Bougo - 03-27-2013

That's interesting. Here's something from the Canadian Red Cross, as cited from the emblem's Wikipedia page: The Red Cross Emblem: It may just be fun and games to you, but it means the world to us.

I second your proposition to try to seek an alternative. I don't believe "H" is a good idea though, it's inconsistent with the rest of the items and it's tied to a language.

RE: Red Cross logo is copyrighted. - hutty - 03-27-2013

what about a heart?

RE: Red Cross logo is copyrighted. - nowego4 - 03-27-2013

Perhaps it's a trick of the normal map, but to me it looks a bit rounded and has colorations to appear recessed.

If this does become an issue (I don't see it happening, but ok) I'd suggest keeping the cross and the color red as much as possible as it is cross-culturally recognized (probably because of the Red Cross). Making it a white-filled red-bordered would probably alter it enough (or conversely, red with white border if not on white surface). Or even just altering the length of the arms relative to their width.

Although, we've already done away with the cross-like HPs (though not in the HUD Tongue).

RE: Red Cross logo is copyrighted. - Harmata - 03-28-2013

Quote:I don't believe "H" is a good idea though, it's inconsistent with the rest of the items and it's tied to a language.
Great observation.
Quote:I'd suggest keeping the cross and the color red as much as possible as it is cross-culturally recognized
I don't think that it's the cross that tells people that it's a health item, but the color scheme. Green is obviously something military, camouflaged, and red is blood, something biological. The white and red color were used since the beginning of gaming, on various health packs, medikits and stim-packs. I didn't even know that the red cross is the logo of Red Cross foundation until recently.
Quote:what about a heart?
Not sci-fi enough, imo, but i wouldn't dismiss this option completely.
I detract my syringe proposal, it's a complex shape that wouldn't look good in miniature.

For the reference, front and side:
[Image: XLUXb5W.jpg][Image: y7pNGdh.jpg]

RE: Red Cross logo is copyrighted. - Finko - 03-28-2013

Here some solution,eat pills - be on MEGAHEALTH:
[Image: 294fd9fb6665.jpg]

RE: Red Cross logo is copyrighted. - Mirio - 03-28-2013

Make it a black cross. Smile Probably 80% won't even notice it.

RE: Red Cross logo is copyrighted. - Halogene - 03-28-2013

Good idea, I think a black cross would do the trick.

RE: Red Cross logo is copyrighted. - Harmata - 03-28-2013

I think that a vertical pill would look good on the side, and a horizontal on the front side.
Finko, words and letters will not do for a number of reasons. Great catchphrase tho, would work for a real commercial Big Grin.
Here, put together a couple of examples in Paint.net:
[Image: uxxmyBA.jpg][Image: 0VW6oB8.jpg]
[Image: isNS7n6.jpg][Image: O8xaHDa.jpg]
Quote:Make it a black cross.
Huh?
Edit: i just realized that a pill is a little out of place on the biggest health item in the game, isn't it?

RE: Red Cross logo is copyrighted. - Finko - 03-28-2013

This what hearts reminds me:
[Image: 1cd11fa3d5f8.jpg]
Maybe its all because spring Big Grin

RE: Red Cross logo is copyrighted. - frostwyrm333 - 03-28-2013

how about the snakes-stick thing http://www.internationaltroutponds.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Nutrition-Health-Symbol.jpg
It seems ridiculous to me that they are trying to make people not use a generic symbol that is known to everyone.

RE: Red Cross logo is copyrighted. - zykure - 03-28-2013

(03-28-2013, 06:41 PM)frostwyrm333 Wrote: how about the snakes-stick thing http://www.internationaltroutponds.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Nutrition-Health-Symbol.jpgv
It seems ridiculous to me that they are trying to make people not use a generic symbol that is known to everyone.

Same problem as with the syringe symbol I guess - it doesn't scale well for small sizes.

btw Your link is a bit broken Wink

RE: Red Cross logo is copyrighted. - hutty - 03-28-2013

[Image: 3iXrgLDtQm0N42XutslV30]
what about a biologically accurate heart?
a blood drop?
an up arrow?

RE: Red Cross logo is copyrighted. - Mr. Bougo - 03-29-2013

(03-28-2013, 10:13 PM)hutty Wrote: what about a biologically accurate heart?
a blood drop?
an up arrow?

I like the accurate heart and drop ideas

(03-28-2013, 06:41 PM)frostwyrm333 Wrote: how about the snakes-stick thing http://www.internationaltroutponds.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Nutrition-Health-Symbol.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_of_Asclepius
What you linked is not a symbol of medicine.

(03-28-2013, 06:41 PM)frostwyrm333 Wrote: It seems ridiculous to me that they are trying to make people not use a generic symbol that is known to everyone.
You missed the point. They are trying to not make it a generic symbol in the first place.

RE: Red Cross logo is copyrighted. - Harmata - 03-29-2013

An up arrow is usually placed on boxes and containers. A biologically accurate heart requires a lot of detail and probably wouldn't look good on the rectangular details of the model. I tried using a drop, but it looks too small and leaves a lot of empty space.

How about simply removing the crosses, the model looks good without them, and there still will be enough of red color to stand out:
[Image: m9O109X.jpg][Image: F3LbsLq.jpg]

RE: Red Cross logo is copyrighted. - Cyber Killer - 03-29-2013

Why not just keep the cross but make it hollow?

Something like:
[Image: anal1.png]

It's the same idea, but different enough not to fall under that copyright

RE: Red Cross logo is copyrighted. - Harmata - 03-29-2013

I don't think that the thin red borders will be very noticeable. Well, it's if we'll simply hollow the current cross, i guess the whole new hollow cross might look good. I guess.

RE: Red Cross logo is copyrighted. - Cyber Killer - 03-29-2013

Not thin boarders, make it like in my sketch above - the single boarder is the same width as the inside part, making the boarders 2/3 of the symbol.

RE: Red Cross logo is copyrighted. - Lee_Stricklin - 03-29-2013

Let's just replace the health packs with cartons of cigarettes and cans of beer. Or we could just ditch the cross altogether and not replace it with anything, the health containers are already distinguishable without them.

RE: Red Cross logo is copyrighted. - edh - 03-29-2013

This is a bit ridiculous. The Red Cross might use it as their symbol but they did not invent it and unless you have something that is per pixel accurate and can be proven to be a copy, it just doesn't work. The symbol of the cross has been around much longer than the Red Cross organisation so they can not claim it as being original. They are a charitable organisation so I'm sure that's why they are asking and not threatening but if it was to come to court I really can't see much coming of it.

Plus: The symbol is NOT just the symbol for the organisation, it is an international symbol to be placed on humanitarian buildings, vehicles and supplies. Xonotic is fiction, the medical supplies in it are fictionally used for humanitarian use (curing players). They won't win if they go to court against that.

If it has to be changed, why does it have to remain red? A green cross is often used for first aid kits in real life. You could have a green nurse symbol, or how about a red AED (Automatic External Defibrillator) symbol? Or use the Caduceus which has been used as a medical symbol for thousands of years:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/Caduceus.svg

RE: Red Cross logo is copyrighted. - Harmata - 03-29-2013

It's not about a possible lawsuit, it's about keeping all things in accordance with license.
Green color will not do, because other elements on the item are red. Besides, the armor is also green.
The caduceus is a complex shape that probably will not look good scaled down.
I checked the AED symbol, and it's a heart with one lightning inside (and a plus sign above):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Automated_External_Defibrillator_(symbol).svg
Hmm, we can add a red heart and make the cross white.
Quote:Not thin boarders, make it like in my sketch above - the single boarder is the same width as the inside part, making the boarders 2/3 of the symbol.
Oh, i see.

Okay, here's the list of proposed variants that didn't receive objections:
1. Heart (maybe with something inside)
2. Hollowed cross
3. Removal of crosses only, no new symbol.

However, i just noticed that the cross has a thin black border... soooo... false alarm? Smile Should i add SOLVED to the title? Dang.

RE: Red Cross logo is copyrighted. - aa - 03-29-2013

Yes. And white shines on the edges, so it is nowhere near identical.

RE: Red Cross logo is copyrighted. - Mr. Bougo - 03-29-2013

(03-29-2013, 08:53 AM)edh Wrote: If it has to be changed, why does it have to remain red? A green cross is often used for first aid kits in real life. You could have a green nurse symbol, or how about a red AED (Automatic External Defibrillator) symbol? Or use the Caduceus which has been used as a medical symbol for thousands of years:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/Caduceus.svg

I'll re-link these two pages from my post above for the sake of pedantry:
Rod of Asclepius
Caduceus as a symbol of medicine

RE: Red Cross logo is copyrighted. - edh - 03-29-2013

(03-29-2013, 09:36 AM)Harmata Wrote: It's not about a possible lawsuit, it's about keeping all things in accordance with license.
If you were to avoid every single thing that has been copyrighted at some point then you would have nothing that you could use. Xonotic is not commercially sold and hence fair use applies. If you were to sell Xonotic then you are selling a reproduction of a copyrighted work and that would not be fair use. Does this then mean that someone can't sell Xonotic if they wished? That is one interpretation but I'd instead go for it being used for product identification purposes - a medkit, classed as medical supplies and hence legally construed as humanitarian and allowed to carry the red cross. There is nothing wrong in using the red cross for this as it constitutes fair use.

The copyright issue or licence is not so important as the Geneva Convention which governs it's use however their are holes in this in that the Red Cross symbol was already in use and copyrighted by J&J who ended up settling with the International Red Cross.

(03-29-2013, 09:36 AM)Harmata Wrote: Green color will not do, because other elements on the item are red. Besides, the armor is also green.
The whole reason in any game why red is used for health is because of the red cross, not the other way round. We're kind of stuck here if green is armour.

(03-29-2013, 09:36 AM)Harmata Wrote: 1. Heart (maybe with something inside)
Thinking about it, what about robot and non-human player models? They don't have hearts like ours. Big Grin I think some player models might have mechanical replacements if they are cybernetically enhanced. Or maybe they have multiple hearts (I met someone once with 2 hearts! Really!!! And a few people with hearts the wrong way round, it's called dextrocardia.)
(03-29-2013, 09:36 AM)Harmata Wrote: 2. Hollowed cross
Seems fair as it will still be recognisable.
(03-29-2013, 09:36 AM)Harmata Wrote: 3. Removal of crosses only, no new symbol.
Might be confusing. The whole reason for the red cross being used in so many games is that it is so recognisable.

How about a syringe?

Or a plaster or bandage symbol?

Or the Star of Life, a modifed Caduceus used on ambulances:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Star_of_life2.svg

RE: Red Cross logo is copyrighted. - Mr. Bougo - 03-29-2013

(03-29-2013, 06:20 PM)edh Wrote: If you were to avoid every single thing that has been copyrighted at some point then you would have nothing that you could use. Xonotic is not commercially sold and hence fair use applies. If you were to sell Xonotic then you are selling a reproduction of a copyrighted work and that would not be fair use. Does this then mean that someone can't sell Xonotic if they wished? That is one interpretation but I'd instead go for it being used for product identification purposes - a medkit, classed as medical supplies and hence legally construed as humanitarian and allowed to carry the red cross. There is nothing wrong in using the red cross for this as it constitutes fair use.

Isn't fair use a US copyright law exclusivity? Also, how does the fact that Xonotic is GPL-licensed integrate in all this? I can't see how we aren't infringing on that copyright if we license the textures bearing the protected symbol under more permissive terms than we should.

EDIT: I also don't quite follow how our health pack items are protected by the Geneva Convention.


(03-29-2013, 06:20 PM)edh Wrote: Or the Star of Life, a modifed Caduceus used on ambulances:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Star_of_life2.svg
You're doing this on purpose, are you not.