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[SUGGESTION] Weapon mergings - Printable Version

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Weapon mergings - Roanoke - 06-08-2010

I believe that there are too many weapons. So, I decided to do something about it.
First, let's list each weapon and how they deliver their damage, with reload speed preceding the description. Bold descriptions duplicate other descriptions (color coded)

Shotgun
1: Medium Spread of projectiles
2: Long Several quick spreads of projectiles

MG
1: Fast Spread of projectiles
2: Medium Concentrated line of projectiles

Mortar
1: Medium Projectile in arc, explodes on contact
2: Medium Projectile in arc, bounces

Electro
1: Medium Slow moving unarced projectile
2: Fast Projectile in arc, bounces

Crylink
1: Medium-Fast Triangular formation of unarced projectiles that bounces
2: Medium Row of unarced projectiles

Nex
1: Slow Unarced projectile (fast)

Hagar
1: Rapid unarced projectiles
2: Rapid single bounce projectiles

Rocket Launcher
1: Medium Unarced guided explosive projectile (remotely detonated)

HLAC
1: Rapid unarced projectiles with low to medium spread
2: Slow Wide spread of projectiles

Rifle
1: Slow Unarced projectile (fast)
2: Fast Concentrated line of projectiles

Fireball
1: Slow Arced projectiles causing fire damage
2: Slow Large slow moving ball of hurt

Now that we know that, we can begin suggesting ways to optimize weapons. I have used color coding to make things clearer (these colors coincide with the issues they fix). This is what I propose.

  1. Merge rifle and nex with novel secondary.
    Both of these guns are intended as sniper weapons. However, both of their secondaries are poor and unfunctional. A new secondary should be created for this hybrid weapon to avoid useless zooming and MG overlap (or if MG secondary is changed the current secondary may be kept).

  2. Make electro sticky grenade gun.
    The only difference between electro secondary and mortar secondary is that electro secondary is much easier to detonate. I suggest that the electro becomes a sticky nade gun: the balls stick to the first thing they come in contact with and can be triggered by primary. This can be used to rig doorways and then explode them when someone comes through.

  3. Merge HLAC, Hagar and MG
    All three of these weapons share a very similar primary in the way that it has a quick reload and some spread (except hagar). Their secondaries vary widely, so I suggest creating a new secondary (HLAC secondary is similar to SG, Hagar secondary similar to crylink secondary, MG secondary is similar to HLAC primary). Perhaps a flashbang that blinds the player or a mode with high push, low damage and medium reload?


So what do you think? Am I right? Am I wrong? Am I in between? Is this a good idea at all?

RE: Weapon mergings - XV22 - 06-08-2010

I'll comment only about the nex/rifle suggestion:

I agree they should be merged: keep only the nex and make the headshot deadly whether the enemy has full armor/health or not.

RE: Weapon mergings - clanclanclan - 06-09-2010

Roanoke Wrote:Slow Unarced projectile (fast)
Huh

Anyway, aside from that Wink:

- I think that a multi-purpose weapon is required (particularly for a single player campaign). The camping rifle was the closest thing to this in Nexuiz, where you could either camp with it or riddle your enemy with lead. Perhaps there could be a camping rifle which shoots a Nex-like anti matter beam reasonably fast, but with lower damage and force, and it's alt-fire could be like the HLAC secondary, but with only three low damage/high force laser shots.

- I agree with you on just about every other weapon, and that the "standard compliment" of weapons needs to be trimmed down (it's fine, IMO, to have a gazillion weapons, but these should not be enabled by default).

RE: Weapon mergings - Lee_Stricklin - 06-09-2010

Meh, don't like it. Each gun can still be unique and for the most part serve it's own purpose. In the event that there are guns with similar purposes, it would just be the responsibility of mappers to choose the ones they think are best for their maps in order to avoid redundancy. Example the HLAC and machine gun are very similar, but one map might play best with machine guns and no HLAC and vice versa.

RE: Weapon mergings - jaykay - 06-09-2010

i really like the mg, hlac and hagar, as separate weapons. the secondary of the mg is great because you can still hit in long range but you deal very low damage then. the hlac secondary is too shotgun-like, thats true. the hagar secondary could be could be used as anti-rocket, or in very close combat... why not?

making the electro second sticky is a good idea, but without the remote trigger. let them just explode after one or two seconds. maybe they could be like an emp for vehicles? i mean, it's called electro Smile

RE: Weapon mergings - Halogene - 06-09-2010

I still like the electro combo... while many say it is pretty useless or hard to use, I often use the high splash damage of the combo explosion for hitting people through walls. I don't mind making them balls sticky but personally I'd vote for keeping the combo (detonate by shoot with electro primary).

RE: Weapon mergings - Roanoke - 06-09-2010

(06-09-2010, 01:43 AM)clanclanclan Wrote:
Roanoke Wrote:Slow Unarced projectile (fast)
Huh
Slow reload, fast projectile

(06-09-2010, 01:43 AM)clanclanclan Wrote: - I think that a multi-purpose weapon is required (particularly for a single player campaign). The camping rifle was the closest thing to this in Nexuiz, where you could either camp with it or riddle your enemy with lead. Perhaps there could be a camping rifle which shoots a Nex-like anti matter beam reasonably fast, but with lower damage and force, and it's alt-fire could be like the HLAC secondary, but with only three low damage/high force laser shots.
The HLAC is already a sort of multipurpose weapon, and merging the nex and rifle won't necessarily make it single purpose (in addition to primary fire, you still have the secondary fire to do something with)

(06-09-2010, 01:43 AM)clanclanclan Wrote: - I agree with you on just about every other weapon, and that the "standard compliment" of weapons needs to be trimmed down (it's fine, IMO, to have a gazillion weapons, but these should not be enabled by default).
Having a gazillion weapons is fine IMO when they are all different and novel. What's the use of three different machine guns with different projectile appearances.


(06-09-2010, 08:33 AM)jaykay Wrote: i really like the mg, hlac and hagar, as separate weapons. the secondary of the mg is great because you can still hit in long range but you deal very low damage then. the hlac secondary is too shotgun-like, thats true.
HLAC primary can be used for some distance if you crouch. It may not be as effective as MG secondary, but it tries (IIRC, MG isn't even hitscan anymore).

(06-09-2010, 08:33 AM)jaykay Wrote: the hagar secondary could be could be used as anti-rocket, or in very close combat... why not?
This is what the TAG secondary is designed for, and you can use any of these three weapons for anti-rocket purposes (though it will not be effective.)

(06-09-2010, 08:33 AM)jaykay Wrote: making the electro second sticky is a good idea, but without the remote trigger. let them just explode after one or two seconds. maybe they could be like an emp for vehicles? i mean, it's called electro Smile
Not sure you understood me. The gun behaves just like it does now, but instead of balls bouncing, they stick. Exploding after such a short time sort of breaks several tactics (rigging a doorway) and removes the need for a lot of skill.


(06-09-2010, 10:05 AM)Halogene Wrote: I still like the electro combo... while many say it is pretty useless or hard to use, I often use the high splash damage of the combo explosion for hitting people through walls. I don't mind making them balls sticky but personally I'd vote for keeping the combo (detonate by shoot with electro primary).
This is what I proposed in my OP.

RE: Weapon mergings - Flying Steel - 06-09-2010

(06-08-2010, 10:23 PM)Roanoke Wrote: Merge rifle and nex with novel secondary.
Both of these guns are intended as sniper weapons. However, both of their secondaries are poor and unfunctional. A new secondary should be created for this hybrid weapon to avoid useless zooming and MG overlap (or if MG secondary is changed the current secondary may be kept).

I agree, but I think the merged gun should also inherit the Rifle's ability to shoot through walls. Secondary should be 3 round burst fire, like shotgun.

Quote:Make electro sticky grenade gun.
The only difference between electro secondary and mortar secondary is that electro secondary is much easier to detonate. I suggest that the electro becomes a sticky nade gun: the balls stick to the first thing they come in contact with and can be triggered by primary. This can be used to rig doorways and then explode them when someone comes through.

I agree, but I feel more needs to be done to make the electro primary more interesting/useful. Like giving it the pre-detonation area effect damage of the fireball secondary.

Also, the grenade launcher secondary could stand to be much more different as well. I suggest a single, large radius, high damage version of GL secondary, that cannot go off from contact, only when its 3 second or so timer runs out. It would be more like a real hand grenade, useful for flushing out tunnels and other confined places.

Quote:Merge HLAC, Hagar and MG
All three of these weapons share a very similar primary in the way that it has a quick reload and some spread (except hagar). Their secondaries vary widely, so I suggest creating a new secondary (HLAC secondary is similar to SG, Hagar secondary similar to crylink secondary, MG secondary is similar to HLAC primary). Perhaps a flashbang that blinds the player or a mode with high push, low damage and medium reload?

MG is hitscan, the other two weapons are projectiles, they're different animals. Though I agree that Hagar and HLAC could be merged. The merged gun should inherit the spread growth of the HLAC, to make it unique and less limited than the hagar (better accuracy at range, when used in bursts). Secondary could fire slow proximity-auto-homing missiles, that start seeking other players once they are within a certain distance from them, like 400-1000 QU (aka inches, ~10-25 meters).

RE: Weapon mergings - Roanoke - 06-09-2010

(06-09-2010, 10:48 AM)Flying Steel Wrote: I agree, but I think the merged gun should also inherit the Rifle's ability to shoot through walls. Secondary should be 3 round burst fire, like shotgun.
Not too keen on burst secondary, it would cause serious damage.


(06-09-2010, 10:48 AM)Flying Steel Wrote: Secondary could fire slow proximity-auto-homing missiles, that start seeking other players once they are within a certain distance from them, like 400-1000 QU (aka inches, ~10-25 meters).
As long as it's not too similar to tag seeker, this could work.

RE: Weapon mergings - Flying Steel - 06-09-2010

(06-09-2010, 12:36 PM)Roanoke Wrote: Not too keen on burst secondary, it would cause serious damage.

But how can a 3 round burst be such a problem if the 8 round burst secondary in 2.5.2 wasn't?

I think you're assuming each round in burst fire does as much damage as a single fire round. But that's not the mechanic the MG follows, so the Rifle can have it's "automatic" fire mode fire less powerful rounds single fire, as well.

This might be how the Rifle secondary works in trunk at the moment anyway, I remember that's how it worked not long before the xonotic fork at least.

Quote:As long as it's not too similar to tag seeker, this could work.

The seeker missiles follow you automatically from the time you are tagged until they or you are destroyed.

These proximity missiles that I propose would only track you as long as you were a certain distance from them, but on the up side would not require a tag "lock".

RE: Weapon mergings - Roanoke - 06-09-2010

(06-09-2010, 01:18 PM)Flying Steel Wrote: I think you're assuming each round in burst fire does as much damage as a single fire round. But that's not the mechanic the MG follows, so the Rifle can have it's "automatic" fire mode fire less powerful rounds single fire, as well.
Yes, if the per-round damage is lowered it will not be an issue.


(06-09-2010, 01:18 PM)Flying Steel Wrote: These proximity missiles that I propose would only track you as long as you were a certain distance from them, but on the up side would not require a tag "lock".
The projectiles would require fine-tuning of speed to prevent a person from being able to just walk away from them or laser jump. However, it would definitely work as a novel secondary.

RE: Weapon mergings - kay - 06-09-2010

I think the only good one is the nex/xon (whatever) and the rifle merged.

the other weapons are just unique even when they act a little the same.

RE: Weapon mergings - VNilla - 06-09-2010

Still thinking over the general concept; there are parts of it that I like and parts that I don't, so I'm still deciding.

However, I do have a quick exercise in logic for you to consider: why make the sticky 'nade gun's primary use the secondary fire mode? It should be that the primary plants grenades and the secondary detonates them, like the 2.5.2 rocket launcher.

EDIT:
I say that trying to modify the existing weapons is going to be too complicated and will make people who are used to the old weapons angry when they find out that they can't do something with them anymore. If we make a new set of weapons from scratch, no one gets annoyed.

Here are my ideas so far. The premise is this: a gun is generally designed for one purpose only (or to put it another way, "we are not trying to build Inspector Gadget"). Why would a rifle's secondary be a machine gun? If you want a machine gun, use an effing machine gun.

In no particular order:
1. SNIPER RIFLE
Primary: High accuracy sniper shot.
Secondary: Zoom with scope.

2. MACHINE GUN/SHOTGUN
Primary: Rapid-fire MG spray of bullets.
Secondary: Shotgun-style burst for close-range situations.

3. ROCKET LAUNCHER
Primary: Fire slow-moving, guidable projectile. Hold button to activate laser-guiding. If the laser is on another person when released, the rocket chases them like the T.A.G. Seeker!
Secondary: Detonate ALL active rockets.

4: GRENADE LAUNCHER
Primary: Fire a short-timer grenade that bounces off walls and detonates after a second or two (or when it hits someone). Similar to current Mortar secondary.
Secondary: Fires a sticky mine. Adheres to first surface it hits (floors, walls, ceilings, possibly even players...) and detonates after a long timer (5-10 seconds?) or when shot. Similar to current Electro secondary.

5: PULSE GUN/PLINKING LASER
Primary: Fires a high-speed, low-damage energy burst used to push stuff around. Long reload. Could be charged up to increase speed of projectile and amount of "push." Similar to current plinking laser.
Secondary: TBD. Possibilities are: none, just reverts to previous weapon used, if applicable (like current Laser secondary); short-range EMP, no effect on players but useful as anti-rocket system like T.A.G. secondary (could destroy them, but I think it should just scramble them and send them flying around randomly); or micro-singularity generator, pulls nearby stuff (including rockets and players!) towards you.

Also, I want some type of last-ditch melee attack (not the shotgun or laser), even if it's just a knife or an animation of the player kneeing the opponent or clubbing them with his/her gun. Probably doesn't warrant a separate weapon, but...

This also leaves open 5 key bindings for tools, like hook, port-o-launch, jetpack, ration packs/medikits (to gradually restore some health), etc.

Anyway, that's just my two cents. Opinions?

RE: Weapon mergings - kay - 06-09-2010

(06-09-2010, 04:01 PM)VNilla Wrote: (or to put it another way, "we are not trying to build Inspector Gadget").

LOL Big Grin yeah.

RE: Weapon mergings - Roanoke - 06-09-2010

(06-09-2010, 04:01 PM)VNilla Wrote: However, I do have a quick exercise in logic for you to consider: why make the sticky 'nade gun's primary use the secondary fire mode? It should be that the primary plants grenades and the secondary detonates them, like the 2.5.2 rocket launcher.
Little did he know that he would later answer his own question...
(06-09-2010, 04:01 PM)VNilla Wrote: ...people who are used to the old weapons [will get] angry...
People are used to the primary firing the projectile, let it be.

(06-09-2010, 04:01 PM)VNilla Wrote: If we make a new set of weapons from scratch, no one gets annoyed.
Actually, people will get more annoyed if EVERYTHING is different as opposed to a few weapons merged and tweaked.

(06-09-2010, 04:01 PM)VNilla Wrote: Here are my ideas so far. The premise is this: a gun is generally designed for one purpose only (or to put it another way, "we are not trying to build Inspector Gadget"). Why would a rifle's secondary be a machine gun? If you want a machine gun, use an effing machine gun.
This is why I proposed novel secondaries rather than recycling other fire modes...

(06-09-2010, 04:01 PM)VNilla Wrote: In no particular order:
1. SNIPER RIFLE
Primary: High accuracy sniper shot.
Secondary: Zoom with scope.
Totally useless secondary, I don't remember the last time I used the zoom scope (fov script is better)

(06-09-2010, 04:01 PM)VNilla Wrote: Secondary: Fires a sticky mine. Adheres to first surface it hits (floors, walls, ceilings, possibly even players...) and detonates after a long timer (5-10 seconds?) or when shot. Similar to current Electro secondary.
This encourages spamming because you take all skill and timing out of it (and people can't defuse other people's minefields this way).

(06-09-2010, 04:01 PM)VNilla Wrote: Also, I want some type of last-ditch melee attack (not the shotgun or laser), even if it's just a knife or an animation of the player kneeing the opponent or clubbing them with his/her gun. Probably doesn't warrant a separate weapon, but...
I'm not trying to invent or create anything here, I'm trying to work off of what we have and consolidate what we do have so we do not have three ways of firing really quickly.

Melee weapon is a topic for another (already existing, iirc) thread.


@Rifle secondary ideas:
  • Bullet that pulls enemy towards you/negates their momentum
  • Bullet that has low damage (around 1) but high push.
  • Armor Piercing bullet: No effects for unarmored players, but higher damage to players that have armor and to vehicles (for instance, player armor*.2+primary damage = secondary damage for players) (10+ damage points added to vehicles, depends on base vehicle health).


RE: Weapon mergings - Lee_Stricklin - 06-09-2010

(06-09-2010, 04:01 PM)VNilla Wrote: I say that trying to modify the existing weapons is going to be too complicated and will make people who are used to the old weapons angry when they find out that they can't do something with them anymore. If we make a new set of weapons from scratch, no one gets annoyed.

True that, it would be easier just to extend the current weapon pool while discouraging mappers from placing any redundants in their maps.

RE: Weapon mergings - Roanoke - 06-09-2010

Extend the current weapon pool? This is exactly what nobody wants to do, because nobody has space on their keyboards anymore.

RE: Weapon mergings - Cyber Killer - 06-10-2010

Too many weapons? Take a look at Turok 2 Seeds of Evil - now that's too many weapons, Xonotic is nowhere near that amount ;-).

Anyway... Personally I'd be very happy to see some kind of assault rifle/mg with attached explode-on-ctx grenade launcher as secondary fire. Not really anything new, but it's usefull as hell for sure ;-).

I'd also buff the shotgun a bit (so it's more similar to flak cannon from ut - 1 shot vs unarmored enemy == 1 kill)

RE: Weapon mergings - clanclanclan - 06-10-2010

Cyber Killer Wrote:I'd also buff the shotgun a bit (so it's more similar to flak cannon from ut - 1 shot vs unarmored enemy == 1 kill)

Like in Nexuiz Tongue

RE: Weapon mergings - Cyber Killer - 06-10-2010

(06-10-2010, 01:42 AM)clanclanclan Wrote:
Cyber Killer Wrote:I'd also buff the shotgun a bit (so it's more similar to flak cannon from ut - 1 shot vs unarmored enemy == 1 kill)

Like in Nexuiz Tongue

hmmm? I don't recall anything like that? the triple shot secondary mode did kill in 1 shot, but the normal single shot didn't (or I'm not "pro" enough to do it :-) )

RE: Weapon mergings - Lee_Stricklin - 06-10-2010

(06-09-2010, 11:57 PM)Roanoke Wrote: Extend the current weapon pool? This is exactly what nobody wants to do, because nobody has space on their keyboards anymore.

That's why you don't put every single gun in any one map.

RE: Weapon mergings - harry_ftw - 06-10-2010

(06-10-2010, 04:28 AM)Cyber Killer Wrote: I don't recall anything like that?

I think it's safe to say that the shotgun in 2.5.2 is regarded by most people to be overpowered and unbalanced, particularly as a starting weapon. The fact is that with vanilla 2.5.2 weapon settings, in many forms of the game it's not even worth picking up other weapons most of the time; I suspect that this is what clanclanclan is alluding to. The idea of a "one shot, one kill" shotgun in Xonotic is therefore not one that anyone frustrated by Nexuiz 2.5.2 balance will find in the least appealing.

RE: Weapon mergings - kojn^ - 06-10-2010

(06-09-2010, 04:01 PM)VNilla Wrote: Still thinking over the general concept; there are parts of it that I like and parts that I don't, so I'm still deciding.

However, I do have a quick exercise in logic for you to consider: why make the sticky 'nade gun's primary use the secondary fire mode? It should be that the primary plants grenades and the secondary detonates them, like the 2.5.2 rocket launcher.

EDIT:
I say that trying to modify the existing weapons is going to be too complicated and will make people who are used to the old weapons angry when they find out that they can't do something with them anymore. If we make a new set of weapons from scratch, no one gets annoyed.

Here are my ideas so far. The premise is this: a gun is generally designed for one purpose only (or to put it another way, "we are not trying to build Inspector Gadget"). Why would a rifle's secondary be a machine gun? If you want a machine gun, use an effing machine gun.

In no particular order:
1. SNIPER RIFLE
Primary: High accuracy sniper shot.
Secondary: Zoom with scope.

2. MACHINE GUN/SHOTGUN
Primary: Rapid-fire MG spray of bullets.
Secondary: Shotgun-style burst for close-range situations.

3. ROCKET LAUNCHER
Primary: Fire slow-moving, guidable projectile. Hold button to activate laser-guiding. If the laser is on another person when released, the rocket chases them like the T.A.G. Seeker!
Secondary: Detonate ALL active rockets.

4: GRENADE LAUNCHER
Primary: Fire a short-timer grenade that bounces off walls and detonates after a second or two (or when it hits someone). Similar to current Mortar secondary.
Secondary: Fires a sticky mine. Adheres to first surface it hits (floors, walls, ceilings, possibly even players...) and detonates after a long timer (5-10 seconds?) or when shot. Similar to current Electro secondary.

5: PULSE GUN/PLINKING LASER
Primary: Fires a high-speed, low-damage energy burst used to push stuff around. Long reload. Could be charged up to increase speed of projectile and amount of "push." Similar to current plinking laser.
Secondary: TBD. Possibilities are: none, just reverts to previous weapon used, if applicable (like current Laser secondary); short-range EMP, no effect on players but useful as anti-rocket system like T.A.G. secondary (could destroy them, but I think it should just scramble them and send them flying around randomly); or micro-singularity generator, pulls nearby stuff (including rockets and players!) towards you.

Also, I want some type of last-ditch melee attack (not the shotgun or laser), even if it's just a knife or an animation of the player kneeing the opponent or clubbing them with his/her gun. Probably doesn't warrant a separate weapon, but...

This also leaves open 5 key bindings for tools, like hook, port-o-launch, jetpack, ration packs/medikits (to gradually restore some health), etc.

Anyway, that's just my two cents. Opinions?


I'm with you on the sniper rifle, primary and secondary, scope makes sense on that weapon.

Like the idea with the MG also primary fire rapid fire spread, I always liked this idea, tZork did some very nice settings which basically does this.

RE: Weapon mergings - Will - 06-10-2010

I'd quite like to see the mortar kept the same and have the secondary detonate the projectile. The Electro could do stickies, secondary would detonate them.

RE: Weapon mergings - rainerzufalldererste - 07-03-2010

I don't like the Rocketlauncher idea of VNilla! ALL ROCKETS? NO! maybe 3...but not all Smile