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+--- Thread: [SUGGESTION] Wall-Jumping Mutator? (/showthread.php?tid=6712)
Wall-Jumping Mutator? - drakovyrn - 10-21-2016
TL;DR at bottom. However, I urge you to read through, please, before voting NO.
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Hi y'all, my name is Drako.
I've jumped ship over from Sauerbraten and Red Eclipse in search of a more lively community, and just a generally more modern-designed Arena game.
I have a suggestion to make. And yup, it's just as the title says. I would like to have wall-jumping included.
I searched the forum, and the topic of wall-jumping was only mentioned once in this topic: http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=2601&highlight=walljumping
It was mentioned as the 4th listed suggestion. Though while not everyone cared for it, there was no general pushback against it. I believe that the idea was generally looked over, as most of the people decided that the OP just wanted to change the whole game to make it like other games.
But before you decide too quickly, allow me to explain my stance with a Q&A list of likely asked questions:
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Q: I like the game as it is, and wall-jumping would have a drastic effect on gameplay. Why would I support something that would change the way I have to play?
A: A lot of you are likely game-mode purists (that is, like to keep things vanilla, or as they currently are), but that's why I would like to request this as a MUTATOR. I understand that no one wants their game changed in a way they don't like, which is why the mutator point is important.
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Q: OK, but why should I care?
A: I like to play with the grappling hook. By show of hands, how many of you like it, too? <- Rhetorical
Point is, I know there are some of you out there that would jump in to say that you don't care for it. But, at the end of the day, does the grappling hook option simply existing actually affect you?
All in all, we're all just trying to come together to play a great game. I don't care much for the Vampire mutator, but, if you asked me to support it, I would say, "Well, why not?!" Who am I to decide how others want to have fun, especially when it has no affect on me?
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Q: Fair enough, but aren't there other games that feature parkour and shooting?
A: So, the big one most people might mention is Red Eclipse. Well, first off, although Red Eclipse does advertise itself as an Arena-shooter featuring parkour, the actual gameplay is actually next to nothing like real life parkour. In fact, there's actually no wall jumping. There's something like it, which I call wall-climbing, but all that really is, is spamming the impulse (jump) and parkour (wall-run) button to go stright up a wall. Angled jumps and 180* wall-kicks are completely impossible.
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Q: Why not make a feature request?
A: Thing is, the game runs on the aging Cube 2 engine, and there's a general consensus that the game is dying, as expressed here: http://redeclipse.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1043
Also expressed is that there's not a whole lot that can be done, due to there only being one developer, which is barely a developer. Quinton Reeves is a great guy, but his actual skills in developing are quite limited, having no other experiences, and no formal education. He states his limited abilities in post #5 of the above mentioned topic. Most of the features that were implemented were helped by a long-time friend that did most of the programming work. Unfortunately, unless someone else comes in to save the day, a request like that would go nowhere.
The original game that I wanted to make a feature request for was a Parkour-game called Celaria: http://www.celaria.com/
I actually did make a feature request on the forum, going as far as saying I would personally fund the feature into existence, as stated here: http://forum.celaria.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=90
However, the main developer stated back that he wanted to focus on just the parkour aspect of the game. However, there was also another issue -- Celaria is made using Game Maker Studio, which, is a game engine that is actually optimized for 2D games. The developer stated that adding in an Arena-Style shooting game-mode just wouldn't work well with the engine.
After having been playing Xonotic with my brother for a while, I noticed that some of the maps have a certain feel to them that I think would make them work well with an extra feature like wall-jumping, especially maps that have a nice ramp placed somewhere, but doesn't actually really help get up anywhere. Maps like Xoylent, Solarium, and Running Man come to mind (Others, too).
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Q: So, you just want to make Xonotic just like Celaria?
A: Does the grappling hook feature make Xonotic like Spider-Man 2? Gameplay: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJq9oBkQftU (Hello again, 240p. ;3)
The answer is, no, it doesn't. Don't laugh, but I actually tried. I downloaded a city map with the grappling hook mutator enabled, and trust me, it does NOT work well.
But, just in general, this sort of question is an over-simplification. It assumes that adding a similar element of a game would make the game just like it. Celaria is an all around parkour game, and features many more things than just wall-jumping -- such as rolling, sliding, and ledge hanging/climbing. Its focus is parkour, and it shows. However, all I'm asking for is a simple when-I-come-in-contact-with-a-wall-I-can-jump-off-it feature. This single feature won't make Xonotic like Celaria, and I don't want it to be. I just think this would be a nice enhancement to the way that one can move about the maps.
But, just to backtrack a bit, I DO want the wall-jump to work similarly to Celaria's method, though, which is probably best shown here from seconds 0:01-0:11: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjnlNGRXtDQ
Basically, when the player model comes in contact with a wall, pressing space causes the character to jump off that wall. The direction is decided by which way the mouse is facing. Note that looking up has no effect on the height of the jump post-walljump.
Feel free to watch the entire video, or even play the game. It's multitudes of fun all on its own.
However, I would definitely put less momentum behind the jump. Celaria, when played right, can make you feel like you're flying. I just want a simple walljump more reminiscent of Super Mario 64.
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Q: Still, why should the developers go through the trouble? Couldn't you just use the Blaster/Rocket Launcher/Super-Weapon?
A: While it's true that the splash-damage weapons give another method of mobility, one might not always have these weapons. Plus, not every place can be reached by these weapons alone, particular places too high to rocket up to. The grappling hook, on the other hand, just makes things too easy. Wall-jumping would be an always accessible method of movement, given that the mutator is selected. As a bonus, wall jumping wouldn't cause damage like rocket-jumping and blaster jumping does.
Otherwise, my offer from the Celaria page stands here as well. I am, definitely, willing to fund this feature in, however which way I can, and would be more than happy to test any implemented features out to get them right.
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TL;DR
So, I hope I answered most of the questions and concerns anyone might have here already (and if you didn't read it, I urge you to do so. However, there's a summary below).
Feel free to express any other concerns you might have.
As a final statement: I know not every one of you will be on board with this idea, but I would hope that you would consider voting positively anyways, if only, because you know that this feature being added as a mutator (as-in, not in vanilla gameplay) would have no effect on you at all. If there was no Capture the Flag, and someone made a request, I would vote yes, because even if I don't care for it, it's my own choice not to play. So please, help support this idea in. Thank you.
RE: Wall-Jumping Mutator? - PinkRobot - 10-21-2016
If it's not added to vanilla gameplay, I can't see any reason not to add it to the game as a feature for those who like it. Just like grappling hook as you rightly point out. Before voting I would like to hear some opinions from other people though.
The problem will probably be implementation because Xonotic does not have a lot of active developers too. Even if everyone voted yes, it would be hard to get it into the game at this point. So that's probably the only reason I could see to be against this: it would take development time away from features that have wider support in the community. But that should not be an argument against putting it on the wish list in the long run.
By the way: I object to your statement that the grapple and a city map do not go well together
RE: Wall-Jumping Mutator? - Halogene - 10-21-2016
From the perspective of development resources I agree, there's probably more urgent stuff to do than implementing that. However, with being open source, it wouldn't be the first time that something rather irrelevant to the overall player community gets implemented just because the relevant developer fancied doing so. It only takes someone capable that really likes the idea of walljumping.
I personally like the way wall jumping makes movement in certain games yet another bit more fluent, adding to the ninja-like feeling that I get from speeding around Xonotic maps already now. So yes, I would probably enjoy testing that out and trying to master it. It would of course drastically change Xonotic gameplay should we ever consider adding it to vanilla (which isn't your proposal, but anyway). But then again this also applies for the jetpack and hook at a far larger scale imho. And we already have this wall dashing in Overkill that works similar I believe (isn't that sort of a wall jump already btw?).
RE: Wall-Jumping Mutator? - Freddy - 10-21-2016
Mario's modpack ( https://github.com/MarioSMB/modpack ) actually has a walljump mutator, so you can already use it on some servers. EAC Votable has it enabled for CRA if you want to test it.
Wall dodging is something different, but it is also a nice addition for faster movement.
RE: Wall-Jumping Mutator? - Smilecythe - 10-21-2016
I've seen some kind of walljump in some instagib server before, I don't remember which server it was and am not sure if it's there anymore. If you pressed jump while airborne and touching a wall, you would then jump off of a wall.
The issue I had with it was that it was hard to control with autohopping and it affected my regular movement, because I use the wallstrafing technique a lot. Wallstrafing is the act of running alongside a wall at a specific angle, which lets your character run faster. If you combine this with jumping and keep adjusting the angle, you'd be gaining speed similar to what you'd get from Q3 style strafe jumping. With the walljump feature enabled, I was walljumping around uncontrollably and mistiming jumps because it's hard to break habits.
RE: Wall-Jumping Mutator? - Mario - 10-21-2016
It should be noted that you always have the Blaster, which is pretty much a core movement tool in this game. It allows wall jumping to some degree, at the cost of a little health (most games would use stamina to keep the spam down).
Wall dodging also exists, though it doesn't allow dodging away from the wall very easily from what I've seen. The wall jump mutator included in my mod is close to what you want, but without the jumping off in the direction you're looking.
RE: Wall-Jumping Mutator? - drakovyrn - 10-21-2016
So, the consensus so far seems to be either pro or indifferent, but, there's only one vote (which is a no, and they didn't even say why)!
@PinkRobot
I didn't say that the grappling hook doesn't work as intended on a city map, just that it doesn't work as a Spider-man web-swinging mechanic very well.
Now, I'm not saying I want this to be #1 priority, but I would like to see that this be put in a sort of to-do list, even if there are other things to attend to. Still, as I said, I'm willing to help out any way I can. However, this would only even be considered if everyone votes Yes! Even if you are particularly unsure, just go ahead and vote for Yes, as a mutator. That way, no one's harmed. And again, voting Yes won't back developers into a corner and force their hand. It's not an urgent request, I just really want a serious consideration for inclusion.
@Halogene
Sounds like you'd be down, why not vote yes?
P.S., I tried some Overkill maps, but didn't come across anything such as Wall-Dashing. Care to elaborate?
@Freddy
@Mario
Yes! The MarioSMB walljump mutator is exactly what I'm looking for! I tried it on the EAC Votable server and for the most part, it works the way I envision it. Though, when I tried it, the playermodel DOES jump off the wall in the direction I'm facing, so I'm not sure if there's disparity between what you made and what I was playing...
Although, would there be any way to make it stamina/momentum based? I noticed that momentum is maintained through each jump. I like that it allowed me to run up a wall, but without a stamina bar, or momentum depletion, it ideally could be spammed to easily climb any wall all the way up.
Also, how do I install this to my local game? I'm using Windows 10, at the moment.
I would like to propose that the wall-jumping feature be added to vanilla Xonotic as a mutator. I would really like it.
@Smilecythe
After trying the MarioSMB mod, I couldn't recreate jumping off the walls randomly while wall-strafing. The only time my character wall-jumped was when I was explicitly attempting to do so. However, I may have done it wrong.
RE: Wall-Jumping Mutator? - cefiar - 10-21-2016
@Mario You don't always have the blaster (CTS?), so I could envision a server running CTS with such a wall jump mutator being useful.
This could actually be really useful enabled server side only for specific maps. There's a lot of maps out there (admittedly they didn't come from Xon) that are hard to do without some sort of wall jump or similar features. Having this enabled (on a server with the mutator present) just for specific maps (ie: defined by the server admin), would mean that those maps are actually playable. You'd want something when you joined the map (either at start of game or when you join the server) that announces the mutator is in effect on the current map tho.
As for timing, I gotta say there's definitely heaps more low hanging fruit, and definitely more stuff that's a priority (eg: is there even a way to specify that only certain maps on a server have a mutator enabled?), so I think there's lots of stuff that needs to be done first. That doesn't mean someone couldn't take what's in the MarioSMB mod, slightly modify it and do this tomorrow for all I care if they're passionate, or they feel it's dead easy to do so lets get it out of the way and knock off one more list item.
RE: Wall-Jumping Mutator? - drakovyrn - 10-21-2016
@cefiar
I actually thought about this, I could have sworn there were game modes where I didn't always have access to a boosting gun.
But, speaking of being gunless, I definitely agree that walljumping would be useful in CTS. By default, the two maps available are pretty... bland. Well, that, and they don't even really seem like racing maps. Personally, I feel that walljumping may allow a more dynamic sort of racing/obstacle course, of which I would be more than happy to contribute to!
Once I learn the map editor.
RE: Wall-Jumping Mutator? - end user - 10-21-2016
(10-21-2016, 07:29 PM)drakovyrn Wrote: @cefiar
I actually thought about this, I could have sworn there were game modes where I didn't always have access to a boosting gun.
But, speaking of being gunless, I definitely agree that walljumping would be useful in CTS. By default, the two maps available are pretty... bland. Well, that, and they don't even really seem like racing maps. Personally, I feel that walljumping may allow a more dynamic sort of racing/obstacle course, of which I would be more than happy to contribute to!
Once I learn the map editor.
Wall jumping has been around for a few years. I first got Mario to add it to his ESK (NOw SMB) mod when I was setting up the CRA Freezetag server. Although I haven't done much with my Mofo servers lately wall jump is active on Mofo With A Shotgun and MoFo Rifle Riot.
RE: Wall-Jumping Mutator? - Mario - 10-21-2016
Wall jumping mutator was never added to the main game, as there was little to no demand for it. I suppose it would be an easy copy-paste now that there is indeed demand outside of custom servers.
Consider it done.
Also, features and improvements are almost always desired, and should be requested instead of polled for. That can be done at http://gitlab.com/xonotic/xonotic-data.pk3dir/issues
RE: Wall-Jumping Mutator? - drakovyrn - 10-22-2016
@Mario
Sweet! Thanks!
Should I have any other requests, I'll post to the gitlab.