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+--- Thread: balanceFruit.cfg (/showthread.php?tid=725)
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 08-07-2010
ok
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - master[mind] - 08-07-2010
Built from git yesterday, side from the maps issue(I was lucky to get one working for a short time... G-23) I am impressed! Ah...a nice high quality map! The use of Relief was amazing! and the cubemaps! And yes, the motion was much smoother. Different but smoother. The laser wasn't so blunt though. It took a little more thought to get the timing right. It seems one needs to have about .25 seconds of jump airtime before you fire to get the laser to launch you right. In the words of a certain kill streak sample, "Impressive!"
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Roanoke - 08-11-2010
http://git.xonotic.org/?p=xonotic/xonotic-data.pk3dir.git;a=commit;h=3c0f816b60939e77e81ccbdce43a5027b89dc4a6
Clever.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 08-12-2010
What's clever?
Anyway, I would like to see the crylink frutiex tested, and also a decision on the nexgun, to have it with headshot and 80/90 damage normal and like 125 headshot damage, or whether to put the sniper in it's place instead?
What about idea of sniper in CTF (someone else suggested this not me), and nex in other game-mode's, personally I think just having one or the other is better.
I wouldn't actually mind the nex basically doing what the sniper would do so same model, and so that it does like 50/60 damage and a lot for a headshot and say 0.7 refire time, so it becomes more like a shockrifle primary but you can do headshots with it too.
People?
I guess we need to get the last little things balanced so we can see if this would get included for the first 'release' since it seems there wants to be a release sometime shortly...
Testing again?
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 08-12-2010
Well I must say the current balance is really coming along nicely, I really like the crylink now it actually feels like it 'works' properly how it should do actually does damage now, still not a fan of negative push though you get thrown around quite randomly, guess I need someone to shoot me a bit more with it.
So far i'm really happy with
laser
mg
electro (god damn this is awesome, good job frutiex!)
crylink
RL
mortar
just the nex/sniper & hagar need to be worked on, especially hagar as that really needs somethign doing to it big time.
Everything feels like it's starting to really be nicely balancing out and on the right tracks.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - FruitieX - 08-15-2010
(08-12-2010, 07:26 AM)kojn^ Wrote: or whether to put the sniper in it's place instead?The sniper is already "in it's place"
(08-12-2010, 07:26 AM)kojn^ Wrote: so it becomes more like a shockrifle primary but you can do headshots with it too.Xonotic != UT
Besides rifle already does everything you described, why do people want to remove the nex?
(08-12-2010, 04:17 PM)kojn^ Wrote: So far i'm really happy withTo that list I'd add:
laser
mg
electro (god damn this is awesome, good job frutiex!)
crylink
RL
mortar
shotgun
nex
Maybe even:
crifle (with 4 bullet mag)
What still needs work is the hagar as you say, and what about the HLAC, seeker and the fireball?
Not sure we have to completely revamp the hagar though, just making it useful (and then also balanced) should be enough. It does have it's unique (albeit spammy) uses.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 08-15-2010
Well Roanoake wants to merge it, so I only suggested that because of his idea, but the sniper already does everything that he has suggested the nex do so it makes sense just to use the sniper? Also as we found out yesterday with setting the nex with the same settings as the sniper it got very spammy, atleast with the sniper there is the mag reload (6 mag!)
No idea about seeker and fireball, but they are super-weapons and so are not my primary concern as of the.
As long as the hagar is made useful fine, but it must also be used..someone said to make the hagar the hlac and so we only have one or the other, and then have it as a stanard weapon..
The shotgun has felt just right now for a while, unless you mean secondary.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Roanoke - 08-15-2010
Spamminess won't be a problem with no magazines and nex refire time. I definitely think we need to remove redundant weapons.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - slowtwitch - 08-29-2010
(07-20-2010, 03:40 AM)Halogene Wrote: I find the grenades very interesting, you really need to think ahead where you place them. But this could also lead to slowing down the game, since you tend to shoot into the direction you are currently moving. Which is, as I can tell by experience now, a bit tricky with sticky grenades. It's like placing a mine field directly in front of you while running at full speed.
I like the sticky grenades too. But the delay needs to be longer, and they should have a proximity sensor as well.
Running and laying a mine field behind you is one use, but so is area denial. If the nades had a stick time 3 or 4 times what it is now you could effectively get out of the area before they blew, and hopefully get your pursuers.
Secondly, perhaps the nades could fall before they blow, and blow when they hit the deck? (just a thought). You could run down a hall, plant them on the ceiling. X seconds later they fall.
I don't see any down side to it being tricky, but the current short delay makes it pointless. They blow before you can exit the area.
(07-20-2010, 03:40 AM)Halogene Wrote: I have one suggestion: since the mortar fires sticky grenades now there is one weapon less that was useful for pushing around people.
Beef up the laser pistol like you suggested. Give it a bigger radius. Nades in primary fire mode would still push people off would they not? In my testing only the secondary fire were sticky.
My take on weapons:
Rocket Launcher: I hate giving someone a rocket in the face at short range and have them shake it off and kill me with a single shotgun. Just not realistic. Plus, the RL needs bigger splash damage. I hate the nerfing of the RL in late versions of nexuiz. I like the fact that the secondary fire on the RL does not do a mid flight destruct. Nobody has time for that anyway.
Machine gun: Also too whimpy.
Love the Grenade launcher. LONGER HANG TIME on the sticky nades please. At least two or three times their current hang time. And maybe have them drop and then blow.
Secondary fire on the Shotgun: If you don't want to go with the triple-shot idea, why not hang a bayonet on the thing and have secondary fire be a thrust. Sometimes bringing a knife to a gun fight works. Especially when you can sneak up behind someone. It would make a great close-in weapon.
I find all the other weapons reasonably well balanced
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 08-29-2010
Perhaps the machinegun can be made a little bit strong but not much more, the secondary is fine, but perhaps primary needs a slight increase, will wait untill the beta is released when there is much more people playing to gauge if it needs changing, it may also seem quite whimpy unless you are pretty close with it, but very close it does deal damage pretty quickly, but anyway perhaps a slight increase in damage.
As for the Rocket Launcher, that is very strong..the lower splash radius is becaue it is now faster if you hit relatively close you will do a lot of damage, a hit in the face should do 100 damage I think, but in the right situation and good aiming it's one of my favourite weapons.
The shotgun is much more balanced now, stops the charging in of just using it and being way overpowered as a starter which is also meaning people actually use the other weapons. Secondary is debateable but with the current model a bayonet would look strange just sticking out and the current melee works nicely.
As for the grenades, there were too many complaints before about the delay on them so it got shortered, having it 3-4x longer would just be crazy for the pace of the game.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - theShadow - 08-29-2010
I am going to make a model of the shotgun eventually, and I plan on having the model have some sort of bayonet on the end. (a laser bayonet!)
I have made a gun like this before, and it looks awesome. don't worry
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - slowtwitch - 08-29-2010
(08-29-2010, 08:16 AM)kojn^ Wrote: The shotgun is much more balanced now, stops the charging in of just using it and being way overpowered as a starter which is also meaning people actually use the other weapons. Secondary is debateable but with the current model a bayonet would look strange just sticking out and the current melee works nicely.
I agree it would look strange to have a bayonet on this gun model (which is not very shotgun like anyway).
I don't know what you mean by "secondary is debatable", but I was testing in nullgaming's test server and there was no secondary on the shotgun. It just did some sort of weird weapon flip, and It was unclear what, if anything, this did. The only reason I mentioned a bayonet was because there seemed to be no functionality on secondary shotgun. Did I miss something. Don't like Bayonet? How bout having secondary be a full choke (tighter pattern, greater range)?
As for Grenade stick time, yeah, maybe 3 or 4 times would be too much.
But the whole Idea of a sticky grenade is wasted if it blows up instantly (or nearly instantly). But I love the concept.
On another point, Shotguns are by definition a close in weapon. I kinda like the idea that you can charge in close and get a kill with one shot.
It means you have to watch your back.
If anything, the shotgun should be much more range limited. That alone would encourage use of other weapons. Even the laser.
If possible, it would be nice to have shotgun effectiveness fall of with distance much quicker. This might make some weapon starved maps hard to play, but it would allow for devastating effectiveness at close range, but little damage at distance, forcing better weapon selection.
But hey, introducing real world physics into a game is always sort of a matter of opinion. I'm just tossing it out as take-em-or-leave-em suggestions.
Keep up the good work I thought the game play was awesome on the few test servers I visited, and my xonotic frame rate makes my Nexuiz setup look pathetic.
(08-29-2010, 01:18 PM)theShadow Wrote: I am going to make a model of the shotgun eventually, and I plan on having the model have some sort of bayonet on the end. (a laser bayonet!)
I have made a gun like this before, and it looks awesome. don't worry
How bout a Flashlight? (SWAT style).
See image: http://www.tacticalshotgunaccessories.com/images/shotgun/advancedtech/SMC1100mounted.jpg
This would allow some interesting variations of ambient lighting levels in maps.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 08-29-2010
The secondary fire you talk about is the melee attack on the shotgun, it's a shotgun whip.
I have just done some testing with frutiex, changes as are follows:-
Physics changes:-
Groundspeed 320
And i'm not sure what changes he made to get the accel quicker, but it is much better, there is a speed limiting feature also.
Is now much easier to gain starting accel so it doesn't take a blue moon to gain speed, someone mentione on here (new poster), it was very slow, also realised this..now is easier to get speed in a actual game environment not just running around the map on your own.
Shotgun melee attack now has a slightly further range coupled with the physics changes it's now easier to hit and time with it but still some timing is needed to hit someone with it but it's easier then before (Dokujisan said it was too hard).
Machinegun DPS (damage per second), 120 from 93.
Rifle now does 50 damage from 60 and refire 0.8 now from 0.7 (originally 0.6 so it's been tweaked quite a bit) ( I was basically able to just hit frutiex way too often in duel so it was way too powerful on more open DM map).
Headshot damage 100 (thats double a normal shot damage), already has come down from 115.
Still when someone is electro'ing/MG'ing you, it is difficult to use much more so then the nex.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - quadratic - 08-29-2010
xonotic is destroying my favorite game. :/
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 08-29-2010
(08-29-2010, 04:20 PM)quadratic Wrote: xonotic is destroying my favorite game. :/
Now how about this: Xonotic != Nexuiz <-- First thing in the thread.
Debating with FrutieX to take the rifle mag off, personally I don't think it fit's a FPS game like this and it is very frustrating if you only have the rifle and you have to wait for reload, without headshot it does 100dmg in 1.6 seconds whilst nex is 100dmg atm in 1.5 seconds, but rifle seems harder to use close up and you need to hit 2 shot's to every nex shot to do the dmg quoted for the rifle above, it does fire nearly twice as fast as the nex though, but it seems personally for me that my accuracy is lower with the rifle then what it is with the nex most likely because in general i'm firing more shots.
Going to arrange another testing day to play some CTF maps specifically with the rifle in place so we can see if it's ok with the mag-off rather then on, for now he increased mag size to 8 due to the damage and refire changes as it takes more shots to kill someone.
Nex balance still needs to be worked on but there seems to be a big divide in what should be done to it, fall-off, charge, nerf etc etc.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Roanoke - 08-29-2010
Recently, the electro primary ammo usage was halved, this is a very bad idea. Electro was the strongest weapon in the game and now is even stronger - you don't need anything other than electro.
This is a weapon with no cons: High damage, low ammo usage, ammo is common throughout the map.
The energies put to castrating the laser would have been better suited to making a decent electro.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 08-29-2010
It can be increased again but needs to be tested but not back to it's previous value, before it was using up too much ammo.
I will look into this in the next 1on1 test game I do.
You only start with 25 ammo for it currently though Roanoake also.
Also, at a 40% accuracy which is pretty damn amazing, it's doing less then 40dps, any less then 90dps will only make it too weak then, it probably seems strong because it's quite used, but the other weapons can counteract it easily enough if used properly.
And it's con is it's range.
And as for it was the strongest weapon in the game, it almost certainly is not..the new machinegun should be quite an even match for it, yes the electro is easier to use, but the rocket launcher > electro imo.
All of the weapons shoud be relatively well balanced now as long as they are used properly, e.g. not just randomly charging in straight lines against someone using the electro
But back to your point, will look into it anyway.
MG dmg was increased because it felt too weak in comparison to the other weapons, a few new posts here people mentioned it and some others mentioned it to me on IRC.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Roanoke - 08-29-2010
(08-29-2010, 07:12 PM)kojn^ Wrote: It can be increased again but needs to be tested but not back to it's previous value, before it was using up too much ammo.It's an imbalanced pair of numbers, damage and ammo.
(08-29-2010, 07:12 PM)kojn^ Wrote: You only start with 25 ammo for it currently though Roanoake also.And cell ammo is all over the place.
(08-29-2010, 07:12 PM)kojn^ Wrote: And as for it was the strongest weapon in the game, it almost certainly is not..the new machinegun should be quite an even match for itMG has comparable damage but terrible accuracy. Electro is point and click.
(08-29-2010, 07:12 PM)kojn^ Wrote: yes the electro is easier to use, but the rocket launcher > electro imo.Once again, point and click.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 08-29-2010
You've always been against this electro anyway so I can't really say or do much that is going to help make it better for YOU, you wanted MG weaker before..was done so, most people say it is too weak now and I thought so too, so now it's made stronger, do you want to make all 'point and click' weapons weaker or something because someone can aim better?
Every weapon is point and click nearly, if someone is aiming better then you it doesn't make the weapon imbalanced, learn to use the other weapons.
As for the ammo usage, it will most likely get increased as I do think it uses up too little at the moment once you get ammo for it, either this or cap the ammo on the gun to a maximum amount of cells for example 100. I would like to see all weapons with a ammo cap of some sort, rifle seems to be 30 shots at the moment, think MG is 300 bullet's, not sure on the others.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Roanoke - 08-29-2010
(08-29-2010, 07:21 PM)kojn^ Wrote: You've always been against this electro anyway so I can't really say or do much that is going to help make it better for YOU, you wanted MG weaker before..was done so, most people say it is too weak now and I thought so too, so now it's made stronger, do you want to make all 'point and click' weapons weaker or something because someone can aim better?I was never against this electro primary. I didn't make the change to the MG, it could have been too drastic - don't blame me for the actions of others.
But yes, the easier a weapon is to use the less damage it should do. That's fundamental, also your reasoning behind laser changes.
(08-29-2010, 07:21 PM)kojn^ Wrote: Every weapon is point and click nearly, if someone is aiming better then you it doesn't make the weapon imbalanced, learn to use the other weapons.Isn't that an issue that needs to be addressed?
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - FruitieX - 08-29-2010
(08-29-2010, 08:06 PM)Roanoke Wrote:(08-29-2010, 07:21 PM)kojn^ Wrote: Every weapon is point and click nearly, if someone is aiming better then you it doesn't make the weapon imbalanced, learn to use the other weapons.Isn't that an issue that needs to be addressed?
Yeah, let's introduce a one second delay to firing each weapon; then it won't be point and click anymore.
Because tell you what, shotgun is point and click, uzi is point and click, nex is point and click, rifle is point and click, seeker is point and click, hlac and laser are point and click, mortar, hagar, rocketlauncher are point and click to a certain extent.
But we can totally fix them all.
(08-29-2010, 04:20 PM)quadratic Wrote: xonotic is destroying my favorite game. :/
cool story bro, get to work and suggest how to not destroy it then!
(08-29-2010, 02:57 PM)slowtwitch Wrote: But the whole Idea of a sticky grenade is wasted if it blows up instantly (or nearly instantly). But I love the concept.
Indeed, should be increased. With a proximity sensor would be nice, or by having the secondary replace the primary again but allow detonating grenades with secondary fire as soon as they've hit the ground (although that's almost copying TF2's sticky bombs) :p
However that would allow one to replicate the functionality of the current primary by holding down both mouse buttons, but also have the secondaries more effective. They would then also need a more visible, glowing model so you could actually avoid them....
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Antibody - 08-30-2010
(08-29-2010, 11:09 PM)FruitieX Wrote: Indeed, should be increased. With a proximity sensor would be nice, or by having the secondary replace the primary again but allow detonating grenades with secondary fire as soon as they've hit the ground (although that's almost copying TF2's sticky bombs) :p
However that would allow one to replicate the functionality of the current primary by holding down both mouse buttons, but also have the secondaries more effective. They would then also need a more visible, glowing model so you could actually avoid them....
Gah! Don't do it, man! I think people are finally comfortable w/ mortar as you have it today.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - slowtwitch - 08-30-2010
(08-30-2010, 07:46 AM)Antibody Wrote: Gah! Don't do it, man! I think people are finally comfortable w/ mortar as you have it today.
I'm not sure we would be discussing it if there wasn't room for improvement.
The delay on the Nexuiz bouncing Nades was higher than what we have with stickies. At the very minimum, I would like to see the delay increased.
Proximity sensing, dropping, remote detonation are all gravy items.
But the shortness of the delay makes them pointless.
The sticky grenade concept is fun, and adds a new dimension to game play. Lets push out the delay just a tad and see how useful it could be.
Thats why these Balance tests are great. Keep up the work.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Antibody - 08-30-2010
slowtwitch, we had the delay larger and they were claimed to be largely ineffective by many testers.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 08-30-2010
Probably the best thing to do now is to wait until the BETA comes out and then look into it the timing of it again, personally I think if it's too long it makes them harder to use and this seemed to be the problem before, but now we have the mortar primary back in also so that helps out when it was removed before for a few days.