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+--- Thread: balanceFruit.cfg (/showthread.php?tid=725)
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Roanoke - 09-13-2010
I don't have an issue with electro per se. I mean, lg is not a bad idea. But the current LG is ridiculous for points mentioned above, I'll spare you the repetition.
Laser, I'd like it changed more in the direction of the old laser but I'm willing to compromise here.
Health/armor system does annoy me deeply.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Lee_Stricklin - 09-14-2010
I finally jumped on a test server and got a ping of 150 (DRUNK!) and I don't really think the physics play nice with that ping unlike the 2.5.2 ones where I could move without much problem with pings as high as 300. The step height is extremely questionable as well. With that said, I'm picking up where I left off about 4-5 months ago and challenging you with my settings.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 09-14-2010
I do not see the laser changing in this balance unless div0 does it or frutiex, when used correctly you can still get decent height and used for acceleration it is very good off walls and you can get upto speed (but not move as fast once you get there) compared to nexuiz. The idea of the balance is to try remove randomness and gameplay flaws i.e. lasering extreme heights in one or two goes, which in turn corresponds to making the game an aerial fest, and when you suggest to do something to change it people complain, then you don't so you get the following, and then when people complain about hitscan usage because thats all they can use to hit people who are always in the air, and then the complaints about open maps so we need more enclosed maps, and then there has to be a fix to fix each of these issues when you can just look at the root-problem.
As for the electro, that's over exagerating a bit let's be honest, as I said before..ammo usage needs to be increased a bit still to make it balanced, as for the aiming it is not 100% I think when I was using it I was getting maybe at my best 25-27% accuracy which makes it do like 25dps, in a good player's hand yes it is strong, but ammo usage can compensate for this, I don't see it being any stronger then any other game that has a similar weapon that i've played in, I think the ammo usage needs to be upped a bit first, then use it in an actual match (NOT warmup), and see how it plays then, It seems people dislike it just because it's used a lot because it's easy to use not because there is a serious dps problem with it which there isn't.
Crylink, ok jaykay I can understand what you are saying but the change was to move AWAY from the old crylink because this had so many issues over a lengthy period of time, I don't think anything is going to be changed in that direction not now. There doesn't need to be many changes until the beta comes out so the balance can be used by a much bigger audience and so weapon stats can be collated.
div0 set the stepheight, I know there were reasons behind it but i'll be honest (I've forgot =D).
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Roanoke - 09-14-2010
(09-14-2010, 06:17 AM)kojn^ Wrote: As for the electro, that's over exagerating a bit let's be honest, as I said before..ammo usage needs to be increased a bit still to make it balanced, as for the aiming it is not 100% I think when I was using it I was getting maybe at my best 25-27% accuracy which makes it do like 25dps, in a good player's hand yes it is strong, but ammo usage can compensate for this, I don't see it being any stronger then any other game that has a similar weapon that i've played in, I think the ammo usage needs to be upped a bit first, then use it in an actual match (NOT warmup), and see how it plays then, It seems people dislike it just because it's used a lot because it's easy to use not because there is a serious dps problem with it which there isn't.
Trust me, right now you get 25% accuracy but in a few months it will be higher. The electro has far too much damage, no other weapon can hold a candle.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - ThePWTULN - 09-14-2010
(09-13-2010, 04:41 PM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote:(09-13-2010, 12:51 PM)ThePWTULN Wrote: Well, the original reason why the Electro primary was changed was that it was essentially the same as the rocket launcher, just a little bit weaker.
That's like me saying that the ASMD (Shock Rifle) was the same as the sniper rifle, just a bit weaker.
Yes, you're right, but it doesn't make the point any less valid. If you've got two weapons, that are almost the same except one is stronger than the other, it's obvious that you're going to go for the stronger weapon, right? Isn't it a step in the right direction to make the weapon set more diverse?
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 09-14-2010
Roanoke, I won't push for it to be reduced in damage and you can ask FrutieX but I do not think he will make the change either just lowering the damage isn't the key, which is why I said we need to increase the ammo consumption to make it higher before it was too high now it's too low, so somewhere in the middle will be a good starting point then wait for the beta and see the stats.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Roanoke - 09-14-2010
(09-14-2010, 12:57 PM)kojn^ Wrote: Roanoke, I won't push for it to be reduced in damage and you can ask FrutieX but I do not think he will make the change either just lowering the damage isn't the key, which is why I said we need to increase the ammo consumption to make it higher before it was too high now it's too low, so somewhere in the middle will be a good starting point then wait for the beta and see the stats.
Ammo consumption was definitely not too high before. I won't be the last to complain about this, so I guess we'll see which drop is responsible for the flood.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Lee_Stricklin - 09-14-2010
(09-14-2010, 10:48 AM)ThePWTULN Wrote:(09-13-2010, 04:41 PM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote:(09-13-2010, 12:51 PM)ThePWTULN Wrote: Well, the original reason why the Electro primary was changed was that it was essentially the same as the rocket launcher, just a little bit weaker.
That's like me saying that the ASMD (Shock Rifle) was the same as the sniper rifle, just a bit weaker.
Yes, you're right, but it doesn't make the point any less valid. If you've got two weapons, that are almost the same except one is stronger than the other, it's obvious that you're going to go for the stronger weapon, right? Isn't it a step in the right direction to make the weapon set more diverse?
The primary fire compliments the secondary fire in a way that keeps the weapon unique from the rest. The new lightning gun function doesn't compliment the primary as well and at the same time you still have the crylink and hlac (which is NOT a bonus weapon, some maps already have it) which act exactly the same.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 09-16-2010
The HLAC is a bonus weapon
Also it's like what ThePWTULN said, it's to make the weapon set more diverse, ok sure you can say, electro and mg are both point and click rapid fire weapons, you can say this about any weapons in that case whatever is made or use the 'there all prediction' weapons let's stop that pointless line please.
The difference is they both act differently in different area's electro is purely short range mainly, whilst the mg a little harder to do as much damage can be used at short and medium ranges and some at long range, there functions are both completely different also. As for the crylink and HLAC, I must of wrote 3 times in this thread that the main weapons (not HLAC / fireball / seeker) were the main concerns for balancing at first and those mentioned in the bracket's had not been worked on, you can say the crylink and HLAC are exactly the same, but something can be changed to the HLAC to make it act differently, or we could just get rid of it? But then there will be outcries of you can't do that!
The more weapons the game has, the harder weapon diversity is going to be.
Seriously sometimes you can't win/win on this forum no matter what you do, if you have a suggestion for the HLAC for this balance put some settings forward please?...
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Roanoke - 09-16-2010
(09-16-2010, 06:10 AM)kojn^ Wrote: Also it's like what ThePWTULN said, it's to make the weapon set more diverse, ok sure you can say, electro and mg are both point and click rapid fire weapons, you can say this about any weapons in that case whatever is made or use the 'there all prediction' weapons let's stop that pointless line please.I think we both know this is exaggerated. Electro and MG are point/click rapid fire, but the way they fire is very different.
(09-16-2010, 06:10 AM)kojn^ Wrote: The difference is they both act differently in different area's electro is purely short range mainly, whilst the mg a little harder to do as much damage can be used at short and medium ranges and some at long range, there functions are both completely different also.800qu is no longer short range.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Halogene - 09-16-2010
Hmm it seems other people don't much like the new electro too, so I'll just fuel the discussion with some more gasoline by saying that I never really liked the "point and keep fire button pressed until frag" kind of weapons at all, which is also why I never use the MG in Nexuiz whenever I can avoid it. I liked the old electro very much actually, especially with the electro combo which was very tricky to do right (placing one ball where you think the opponent is going and then detonating it). In my opinion the electro was not at all too similar to the rocket launcher (c'mon, it was BLUE! right?), the rocket launcher was extremely useful for mid-air combat due to secondary detonation and too slow compared to the electro for ground combat (referring to the balance on DCC's plain delight).
But as stated before, this is most probably only a personal dislike which is then my problem rather than a bad weapon design.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - theShadow - 09-16-2010
I would at least like to see some work done on the visual aspect of the weapon. I personally think it would look cool as an actual fractal lightning beam. (the laser secondary kind of looked like that. )
atm the current beam doesn't really match the weapon.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - jaykay - 09-16-2010
(09-16-2010, 09:39 AM)Halogene Wrote: Hmm it seems other people don't much like the new electro too, so I'll just fuel the discussion with some more gasoline by saying that I never really liked the "point and keep fire button pressed until frag" kind of weapons at all, which is also why I never use the MG in Nexuiz whenever I can avoid it. I liked the old electro very much actually, especially with the electro combo which was very tricky to do right (placing one ball where you think the opponent is going and then detonating it). In my opinion the electro was not at all too similar to the rocket launcher (c'mon, it was BLUE! right?), the rocket launcher was extremely useful for mid-air combat due to secondary detonation and too slow compared to the electro for ground combat (referring to the balance on DCC's plain delight).
+1.
i often said that it does not matter how similare weapons ARE, but how similar they FEEL. hagar, hlac, mg, crylink secondary, rifle secondary feel way more similar that the electro primary and rocket launcher. and, as halogene said, the rocket launcher feels different because of different speed, guided rockets and mid-air explosion.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 09-17-2010
This thread is moving more away from balancing and into another quote me happy thread AGAIN!
Halogene, atleast thankyou for a informative post and that is personal dislike rather then bad weapon design.
theShadow, I would like that too, but i'm too sure who could do this??
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Roanoke - 09-17-2010
Please note that any and all criticism of everything can come down to "personal dislike" and that Halogene reiterated what everyone has been chanting for a long time now.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 09-17-2010
Everyone?
Do you even know the reason behind the changes..Ok I won't go into this, this thread is starting to become a bit of a joke if I'm honest, i'll just wait for a Beta now.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 09-28-2010
FrutieX, can you make the crylink primary fire faster (speed wise, not the rate of fire), and increase the damage of the primary shot, definitely needs to be a bit faster I think and damage wise also? Imo we should look into raziel's setting for it and see how it works ingame as he uses a 6 shot which would probably be better if we increase the speed and damage?
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Lee_Stricklin - 09-28-2010
I hate to sound like a dick, but here's some honest (and brutal) feedback:
I'm still annoyed with the crylink being a second HLAC and not being able to bounce nades. The shotgun is useful, but irritating to use. A lot of the guns, while balanced, feel the same (crylink feels like a cross between the HLAC and machine gun) and not diversified and very awkward. The physics seem alright, but 18MPH running speed? That right there makes the transition to bunnyhopping feel very awkward and makes the game feel closer to CoD at times. The fall damage is annoying as well.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - FruitieX - 09-28-2010
Idea: Make mortar primary bounce, and allow remote detonation with secondary fire (after the first bounce to not make it too strong/similar to RL?). Holding the fire button longer means the projectile will get fired further as well. Also this way it can work exactly like the old mortar primary, if you keep holding secondary it'll explode right at impact.
Sticky nades/mines and whatever ideas can be moved to Taoki's mine layer weapon.
Idea 2, as discussed in another thread: Nex damage is dependant on your velocity, possibly with a short "delay" so it's still "charged" after moving fast, hitting a wall and firing. (or not?)
Camping rifle secondary scopes in, nerfs your movement, starts charging a shot. Uncharges as soon as you unscope. Uncharged shot will not deal much damage, charged ones will deal massive damage. (gradually charging of course)
Lee, the weapons in Nexuiz (and similar balances) feel much more "the same" to me than in this balance. I haven't even tried yours yet due to lack of time, so I'm not commenting that yet. Possibly testing on friday.
Crylink the same as HLAC? Guess you mean the secondary... Well it's like a HLAC you actually hit something with
. No seriously, you're right. Perhaps the crylink secondary should be restored to what it was in Nexuiz, with improvements the crylink code got in Xonotic (all projectiles explode at once). HLAC should be made to resemble the current balanceFruit crylink secondary IMO, it's easy to use and hit with
. Then again isn't the Hagar quite similar to the HLAC? Some innovation is needed here, perhaps by removing the weapon altogether and replacing by e.g. Taoki's mine layer idea? It could use the Hagar model which does fit it somehow, it's so generic.
Edit: The shotgun is fine. Haha
Regarding the physics, yeah perhaps the transition from ground speed to airaccel is too big. However, too much ground speed is bad because mappers have to create huge maps, and it allows ppl to dodge around like mad on the ground. If we had insane ground speed, then I can't even imagine what vehicles would be like, as I would suppose they are faster than players are.
Fall damage kicks in faster for the same reason. Previously you'd need a gigantic map for fall damage to be of any importance at all, now it kicks in on sanely scaled maps as well. You can still fall from higher places than in the average fast shooter afaik.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - jaykay - 09-28-2010
(09-28-2010, 01:16 PM)FruitieX Wrote: Idea: Make mortar primary bounce, and allow remote detonation with secondary fire (after the first bounce to not make it too strong/similar to RL?). Holding the fire button longer means the projectile will get fired further as well. Also this way it can work exactly like the old mortar primary, if you keep holding secondary it'll explode right at impact.
Sticky nades/mines and whatever ideas can be moved to Taoki's mine layer weapon.
sounds like a good idea.
(09-28-2010, 01:16 PM)FruitieX Wrote: Idea 2, as discussed in another thread: Nex damage is dependant on your velocity, possibly with a short "delay" so it's still "charged" after moving fast, hitting a wall and firing. (or not?)i'm not sure about that, i still think the nex shot be powerful with all the extras (heatshots, through walls) and the camping rifle should be you standard sniper gun.
Camping rifle secondary scopes in, nerfs your movement, starts charging a shot. Uncharges as soon as you unscope. Uncharged shot will not deal much damage, charged ones will deal massive damage. (gradually charging of course)
(09-28-2010, 01:16 PM)FruitieX Wrote: Crylink the same as HLAC? Guess you mean the secondary... Well it's like a HLAC you actually hit something withi still vote for cahnging the crylink back to 2.5.2. i think it was one of the few unique weapons there.
No seriously, you're right. Perhaps the crylink secondary should be restored to what it was in Nexuiz, with improvements the crylink code got in Xonotic (all projectiles explode at once). HLAC should be made to resemble the current balanceFruit crylink secondary IMO, it's easy to use and hit with
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - theShadow - 09-28-2010
I was playing in a match the other day, and I have a comment about the electro. to me, damage seems fine, what annoys me is the force. once someone gets you in the beam, it becomes VERY difficult to move out of the way. (since it is continually pushing you in a certain direction.) imo if you reduced or even removed the force, it would help balance the weapon.
also, I love the shotgun melee, but something that could be done ti improve it's usefulness is either reduce the delay or let you charge it. as in, you press and hold the button, and the weapon moves into the up position and stays. when you release the button, it swings down. (fires)
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Calinou - 09-28-2010
+10000 to TheShadow : the more you will charge your shot, the more it'll push and be powerful...
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 09-28-2010
FrutieX, I don't like all this the crylink is like the HLAC, the crylink is a standard weapons, the HLAC is not. I don't care what people say, it was an added weapon, it's a super-weapon, if anything the HLAC should be changed not the crylink, a beta is coming soon and we have a good ground with the current physics and weapon functionality this shouldn't be changed but rather on improving the weapons if needed as they are for the beta.
Agree with jaykay, rifle should be standard sniping weapon, there's nothing majorly wrong with it at the moment so don't try fix something that doesn't need to be, as for the nex, if someone can implement this idea of more power when your moving quicker I will look forward to trying it out.
P.S i'd rather have a scope on the sniper without it doing something too fancy, what about a 10% damage increase in scoped mode nothing too drastic, I like the nex idea, but the idea of charging shot when in scoped mode seems to be going towards the same was as the nexgun similarity? Again if someone implements it I will try it out obviously, if it worked well, would there be a need for the nexgun etc?
For me it seems to be people want to make the med-long hitscan weapons not be able to be used in closecombat, for me this is just wrong. A single/indiviual ammo type for example the rifle would be a much better idea, it would really cut out this problem, especially on official maps if it's placed sparingly, you won't be able to hoard ammo then too, it works in other game's and is a simple solution to a big discussed problem.
When I played yesterday, I was constantly having to pickup cell ammo just to use the electro, atleast it wasn't like in nexuiz when I could hoard 300+ and just dominate, it made it a lot better and I didn't use the electro constantly, I had to get ammo for it, same with crylink.
As for crylink secondary, it was useless in nexuiz in the sense hardly anyone used it and wasn't rate, I prefer to see current crylink secondary stay as it's actually very good (I suck with it, but I've seen people use it well on me), the damage is good and the ROF seems fine..why go throw all that out the window..why not change the HLAC which hasn't had much work done on it and is used less then the crylink in maps anyway, it's not a core weapon, until someone shows me otherwise with balancing it inline with the other weapons. Adding more weapons makes things more complicated, they should be added because there NEEDED, not because for the hell of it, this is where problems happen.
As for the shotgun melee, I'd rather just see it's damage increased if i'm being honest because once you learn the timing with it, it's relatively easy to hit with, I'd be willing to try that, and what theShadow suggested, but I think higher damage is the way to go.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Lee_Stricklin - 09-28-2010
The HLAC IS a standard weapon as is the Camping Rifle because it's been used a few times by mappers. The HLAC is a general purpose spam weapon that resembles the Tarydium Stinger and Pulse Gun weapons from the Unreal universe. The Crylink more closely resembles the Shredder from Turok 2.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 09-28-2010
Your wanting to work backwards though, by making the crylink settings work on the hlac, which is not placed as often in maps, it's not a standard weapon. Which means designing something new for the crylink, when we already have relatively good functionality and settings in place for it, why would you want to destroy that when a beta is nearing?
Can you not suggest or try something functionality wise for the HLAC in your balance and post your settings here so we can try it out, instead of changing something we have in place to another weapon, then having to redesign settings for that weapon too, why not just work on creating the HLAC functionality and settings?
Do you understand what i'm trying to get across?
I'd love to see the HLAC used for ons/assault where it would be gametype specific and new idea's for it can be made.
Even more so, i'd love it if someone would post some settings for it, something different and make a video so we can see it's functionality.