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+--- Thread: balanceFruit.cfg (/showthread.php?tid=725)
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Lee_Stricklin - 09-28-2010
I already got a balance moving in the direction I want it and just need testers. I treated the HLAC, Crylink, Rifle, and Machine Guns as their own weapons and I made sure they still felt like they're supposed to so that anybody who's played Nexuiz can pick them up and use them. The problem with my balance is that it is intended to be used with my physics which allow INSANE amounts of speed to come to the player easily, may have to bring those down to earth a bit since you guys don't seem to be a fan of cruising around at 70MPH on large maps.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 09-28-2010
It's not that, it's the insanse boosting speeds you could achieve in nexuiz with the rocket boosting, atleast currently in xonotic the kind of edgespeed/cap speed when you are going around maps like stormkeep2, as soon as you reach a limit speed, 800 I think? Your acceleration is drastically reduced, on open maps if your hopping forward you won't really notice as much.. but when cornering you won't keep accelerating and accelerating, hope that makes sense.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Lee_Stricklin - 09-28-2010
To counter that though, I have a running speed of about 25MPH so your not exactly immobilized when not bunny hopping and it takes a bit of space to pick up insane speed higher than 45MPH.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 09-28-2010
Fair enough if you have that in place and if it works atleast thats a fix then for your physics.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Flying Steel - 09-29-2010
(09-28-2010, 01:16 PM)FruitieX Wrote: Idea: Make mortar primary bounce, and allow remote detonation with secondary fire (after the first bounce to not make it too strong/similar to RL?). Holding the fire button longer means the projectile will get fired further as well. Also this way it can work exactly like the old mortar primary, if you keep holding secondary it'll explode right at impact.
This would not be a good implementation; old mortar primary must take precedence over the shitty nexuiz mortar secondary. The explode-on-impact functionality is what people really want, as seen earlier in this thread.
"Bouncy" grenades should happen when you hold down secondary or such, with the grenades becoming sticky as soon as you release secondary.
Quote:Sticky nades/mines and whatever ideas can be moved to Taoki's mine layer weapon.
Be careful not to add too many marginally useful "biorifles". That is, weapons that lay down lame traps that any moderately experienced players will never be dumb enough to run into. With electro secondary, mortar secondary and now a mine weapon, you'd have way more biorifles than a fast game with unusually wide corridors and few choke points could ever need.
Quote:Nex, HLAC, TAG Seeker, Fireball
Perhaps balance would be easier if these weapons really were separated from the rest, as super weapons. Maybe they could collectively have their own ammo type, called "Antimatter" or anything else that helps sell them as super weapons. Their power would be above the normal arsenal, and availability well below, so they wouldn't have to be so unique versus the other weapons, just different from each other
Quote:Fall damage kicks in faster for the same reason. Previously you'd need a gigantic map for fall damage to be of any importance at all, now it kicks in on sanely scaled maps as well. You can still fall from higher places than in the average fast shooter afaik.
Where is the collision damage now? I'd like to see it much, much, much higher than in Nexuiz. In Nex, there was never any thrill to high speed because you would bounce off of everything unharmed and only suffer at most, a pointless 25 damage.
I'd like to see damage start at ~10 m/s, and have a damage ceiling no lower than 100 damage, but better yet no ceiling at all. And this is would be general collision damage, not just fall damage. If you are hopping along and hit a wall flat-on at 20 m/s, you should feel it. Consequences are what makes speed fun and skillful.
Gotta have those "Oh Shit!" near-miss moments.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - FruitieX - 09-29-2010
(09-28-2010, 03:04 PM)jaykay Wrote: i'm not sure about that, i still think the nex shot be powerful with all the extras (heatshots, through walls)
Since when does the Nex have that?
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - jaykay - 09-29-2010
sorry,i fogrot a word
i meant the nex *should* be the more powerful weapon with all the extras, and the camping rifle should be a standard sniper gun without extras.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - FruitieX - 09-29-2010
(09-28-2010, 06:06 PM)kojn^ Wrote: I like the nex idea, but the idea of charging shot when in scoped mode seems to be going towards the same was as the nexgun similarity?
The nex would REQUIRE you to run around. The _camping_ rifle would REQUIRE you to stand still. Campers can be put at massive disadvantage here, I'd take the chance.
The camping rifle would be used for camping (at least temporary camping). Not for running around and abusing it as a M16 rifle with the optional, useless added feature of a scope.
What you are looking to do with the camping rifle is something you'd achieve with the nex.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 09-30-2010
Still don't like the idea, your forcing someone to stand still which encourages camping. Just leave it as it is, and put a scope on it :p simples!
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Halogene - 09-30-2010
I also don't like the idea to be forced to stand still. This doesn't go very well with being a fast-paced arcade like FPS. I like, however, the idea about the Nex dealing more damage when moving really fast. Somehow this idea seems so familiar...
http://www.alienTRAP.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=50546#p50546
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Lee_Stricklin - 09-30-2010
I personally would rather have the nex be the extreme range weapon that can kinda handle medium range if used properly. Using it at close ranges and especially point blank should be suicide.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 09-30-2010
Again the simplest idea for the rifle and the nex, is to have a unique ammo type, if nex goes super-weapon I like the idea above about the superweaons having some kind of there own unique ammo type, and obviously super-weapon should be voteable to be removed or kept on etc.
As for the Rifle, It's nice how it is in the current balance, still not a fan of reload and of secondary, i'd just prefer a scope that does more damage when used perhaps as said before, again make it use it's own ammo type..will mean you will need to go out of your way to get ammo for it, and I guarantee you'll noticed a difference in how much a hitscn weapon like that is used compared to how the nex was in nexuiz, you probably won't even need reload then, but if it is a must then make reload be 8 mag
Also these aren't radical changes to a weapon, which is better considering the functionality is fine and a beta is close, we should atleast give the weapons a chance to reach the beta then tweak the value's after IF something needs changing really badly with a particular weapon, but I doubt this is going to happen - probably just small changes, because of the amount of work and pretesting that has gone into these, there is still obviously some issues, but nothing huge.
Is there anyone who's going to try implement this nexgun damage depending on speed moving at?
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - FruitieX - 09-30-2010
(09-30-2010, 07:08 AM)Halogene Wrote: I also don't like the idea to be forced to stand still. This doesn't go very well with being a fast-paced arcade like FPS.
I also don't like the idea of running around, capturing flags with a sniper rifle that can be very powerful especially in headshots. The Nex and the CR would be used for the exactly same purpose, with the exception that the CR can also be useful at long range? What's the point of keeping both then?
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Lee_Stricklin - 10-01-2010
I've geared the Camping Rifle more towards a scout weapon and the Nex more towards an extreme-long range weapon. Both of them do share a range that they are effective at with the Nex being the easier of the two to use, but the least rewarding while the Camping Rifle is the harder, but more rewarding to use. We really should grab ideas from each other's balance files, I think there is something cool in both sets of files.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 10-01-2010
There isn't really a point of keeping both FrutieX, which is why I would like to see the nex go as a super-weapon and the Rifle as standard, nex has always had issues and still people can't decide what they want to do with it. The camping rifle is a much better balanced weapon, and even if it doesn't get its own ammo type, machinegun bullets are generally less on maps then cell ammo and it's the only other weapon that shares ammo with it, unlike the nex which shares with the crylink and electro.
Also, we can't orientate the weapons around CTF specifically, the other's haven't been and they are useful in all game-types, you won't always have the luxury of having multiple weapons, especially in deathmatch (team more so then duel), you should still be able to use a weapon in closequarters or long range and shouldn't be punished. As it is the Rifle is more difficult to use in my opinion close quarters then the nex anyway.
I'd recommend starting with the mag on, once we have beta it will be used quite a lot I hope, and we can see if it's ok with the mag on, if it is then probably best not to remove it, even though I dislike the mag if it needs to go on then so be it but if not remove it, but i'd rather see it's magsize incresed to 8 instead of 6 perhaps but only time will tell atleast this seems a sensible way to start with it, I seriously doubt with a 6mag it is going to be to overpowered, to make it less so you could cap the weapon ammo to 24 shots for example also, also means you need to get ammo more often and reduces people just ammo whoring which also decreases camping with that type of weapon.
Also need to remember the current Rifle does 50 damage I believe, thats 3 shot's to take a player down without hitting a headshot who has 125 health, i'd prefer to see a headshot do more damage also like double a normal shot so that's twice as much, so for starters 50dmg per shot, 6 mag, and 100 damage for a headshot in my opinion
I'm not saying remove the nex completely, but just not to have this complex idea orientated more at CTF then the other game-types. I don't feel this needs to be done, it seems a complex and needless way to sort an 'issue' out which is to do more sowith the nex rather then the Rifle.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Lee_Stricklin - 10-01-2010
I've got the nex balanced against the other guns in my latest configuration that I have in my xonotic folder, I'll upload it after a few more tweaks (currently toying around with weapon forces and ammo consumption). I think I also struck a balance between a down to earth feel and 2.4 VS 2.5 in my physics, but I still need to tweak the step height to what it needs to be and play around with it like that. The problem with the nex is that has always been easy to abuse in every situation where it really shouldn't be used and it's not uncommon to see someone blasted at point blank by it. I've gotten rid of that problem in my balance. Maybe you should be gearing it in a similar direction.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Halogene - 10-01-2010
I'd prefer to keep the nex instead of the camping rifle - mainly due to the push/drag of primary/secondary fire (SURPRISE!!). For all of you who haven't noticed yet: in my opinion it adds to the gameplay if you are able to influence the movement of your opponent - or even team mate.
In CTF the push/drag would be very useful both for team mates and for opponents.
I wouldn't even care if we reduced the nex damage and made the camping rifle the powerful pinpoint mega damage weapon (though I'd suggest to have a 6 shot mag then). But the push/drag is a very nice idea.
Heck, I could even imagine having a push/drag weapon that does no damage at all.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Flying Steel - 10-01-2010
(10-01-2010, 08:13 AM)Halogene Wrote: I'd prefer to keep the nex instead of the camping rifle - mainly due to the push/drag of primary/secondary fire (SURPRISE!!). For all of you who haven't noticed yet: in my opinion it adds to the gameplay if you are able to influence the movement of your opponent - or even team mate.
You might be able to balance the Nex by working off the combination of the push-pull and falloff-antifalloff mechanics.
What you do is set damage falloff and antifalloff really intense, so that the weapon does little damage at either long or short range, only at medium range does it do significant damage. But you set force to no falloff of any kind. That way, the objective of the Nex wielder is to push close in players away, and pull far out players in, to try and get them in the medium range "Sweet Spot".
We can call this the Sweet Spot Nex proposal.
________
The second option is the Lance Nex.
This increases its damage as the player speed, or better yet velocity goes up. My suggestion is that this should NOT be a sniper weapon at all, it should be a close range Lance. Primary does heavy damage but with severe falloff with range. Secondary does heavy push at heavy range falloff as well, but is unaffected by wielder's velocity. That way you can push players far enough back with the secondary that you can then charge them and run them through with the primary, if your present velocity is insufficient.
________
Final proposal is the Super Nex. Which is a super weapon, sharing super weapon "Antimatter" ammo with the other super weapons. It is more powerful and less available by design than the normal weapons. It is thus perfectly acceptable that the Super Nex and other super weaons reuse some or all mechanics of normal weapons, because being "super" is already enough of a difference.
Together with vehicles, super weapons may someday replace quads.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - FruitieX - 10-03-2010
Alrite, I've implemented this velocity based nex idea together with an indicator around the crosshair. When moving 400 units per sec or slower, the Nex now does 50 dmg. When you gain speed this slowly increases all the way to 1000 units per second, when it does 125 damage. Mind that the soft speed limit in the physics is 800 units per second, so you will have to perform tricks to get full damage! Also, damage/force falloff is still in place.
Also, the mortar primary now fires grenades that bounce around. They can be remote detonated with secondary AS SOON as they have bounced ONCE. This means the old mortar primary behaviour can be achieved by pressing both primary and secondary when firing (the remote detonation is "remembered", so if a grenade is not yet allowed to detonate and you try to do so, it'll detonate as soon as it bounces). Or you could replicate the old mortar secondary by firing and not remote detonating. Or you could spam an area with 5 of these, wait for an opponent and ... KABOOM! Or you could aim down to the floor and fire so that the nade will bounce, and you get to remote detonate it in midair without a wall bounce.
Camping rifle refire increased all the way to 1.5 sec (!), this ought to discourage players from using it in mid-close range fights. On the other hand, a headshotted rifle bullet now does 150 damage, normal hit 75 damage, and the secondary spam attack is still there.
Electro damage nerfed slightly to 85 dps, and force decreased by about 1/4 of the previous value.
Anything else?
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Cuinnton - 10-03-2010
can we see a more realistic machine gun primary fire rate? its not a chaingun? Prehaps slow the firerate, and increase the damage slightly
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - FruitieX - 10-03-2010
hmm agreed. I'll take a look at it later.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 10-04-2010
Why the huge change to the camping rifle..
Please don't mess the machinegun values up, it's fine as it is, if anything a new model would be better fitting for it to go with it's current Rate of Fire, changing values for the sake of it not 'looking' like a chaingun is a bad idea in my opinion.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Cuinnton - 10-04-2010
the function of the machine gun would also be improved imo kojn^, making it less of a n00b spam ray and a little more of skilled weapon, but only a little
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Halogene - 11-03-2010
Sry, have not been able to contribute with feedback for a while. So here are my two cents regarding the current balance (I guess the fruitbalance is current Xonotic default? If not, some of these points may apply to default Xonotic physics).
The Nex is a super sweet thing - I really like the idea and the implementation of that. The concept is, from my point of view, just perfect and sets the Nex aside from the other weapons. One suggestion: add the push for primary fire and the drag for secondary fire as we had it once, and make their force dependent on your movement speed as well. This would make the nex even more different from the other weapons and could add a lot of fun for crazy people like me.
Another idea that just came to my mind: why don't we keep the name NEX for that weapon in honoration of the roots of Xonotic?
The grenades are very slow nowadays, it is really hard to hit anyone with them unless in really close combat. I am ok with making the secondary unsticky again, though I really liked the sticky ones very much. But there seems to be a mine layer concept for that.
Oh, and of course the laser could have more push for vertical movement
Movement feels very sluggish, I find it hard to move around quickly. Somehow I think the player models weigh twice as much as the old ones :o) You can get very much speed by bunny hopping and lasering yourself off walls, but in closed quarters you can't really move/dodge very well. My experience is that the overall gameplay gets much slower by the current settings once you encounter an opponent. This adds a lot of tactical elements to the gameplay of course, but it is not any more really fast.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - chooksta - 11-03-2010
um , when im in the air the side step keys wont work , so i cant controll my fall to , say a platform , so if im in the air and i wanna try shoot someone and land on something , i cant.
sure i could take a shot and then turn and try to land , but this seems like i have to take a pot shot rather than a controlled one
oh forward and back keys do work in air.
AND WHATS WRONG WITH ROCKET FLYING!
IF YA CANT SHOOT ME , TRY HARDER!
hi , im new
:^
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