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+--- Thread: balanceFruit.cfg (/showthread.php?tid=725)
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 01-06-2011
Reasonable changes I guess
I shall test with FruitieX when he returns from America.We just have to make sure we do not make it too strong, but just right.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - FraNcoTirAdoR - 01-06-2011
Finally I'm at home and I can react on the electro too what kojn mentioned in the earlier post
I perfectly agree with it, i was just about to open a thread about it a few hours ago lol. The thing is that electro (LG) is operating as a "damage exchanger" weapon, even against a freshly spawned opponent. So what do I mean? When the opponents spawn with a (very cool and strong) shotgun, and they just have a tiny bit skill to strafe they will dodge a vast amount of electro beams while constantly damage you. On average I would say it means you will lose like 80 HP before finally you kill the freshly spawned opponent. Electro does not have enough dps with 30-35% hit ratio (average aim) to take out an enemy before they do almost the same amount of damage --> thats what I mean on damage exchanger. With RL and mortar the story is different, you can push the opponent and constantly offset his aim this way, but with electro you cant.
I would rather increase the refire rate of electro: with stock ammo-count you can spam for really long, but with faster refire rate the DPS would increase and would deplete a bit faster. Sooo hmm, 10% faster refire rate?
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 01-06-2011
Not sure I agree with faster re-fire rate, you only get 20 ammo to start off, at the moment personally it uses up just enough ammo, I can maybe get a kill fighting against someone with 20 cells and some left over to continue in a fight with more then one person, probably just enough to kill someone a lot of the time but I'd need to pick up more ammo after (I would be willing to test if it helps it a little).
Also don't think just about primary, if you spam balls just once then combo, then shoot with primary after you don't have much ammo left, I think this has been worked on already and I personally like it how it is, if it goes down too quickly you can't even get a frag on someone with 100health after picking it up which is appauling
If it needs to be tweaked ever so slightly then we can have a go and test it, but I think the main one at the moment is the machinegun is just a little too weak and a few people have pointed this out.
For a bit of balance perspective:
I think my average Electro aim over a match is between 23-30%, maybe a bit higher in DM at time's as in CTF I spam more with it, but 30% the top end would mean 30dps, that's just over 3 seconds to kill someone at that accuracy avg, and the likely hood is most of the time I won't even be shooting at that accuracy. @ 25% accuracy average thats averaging at 4 seconds to kill someone with ONLY 100 health, you can fire in theory 4 nex shot's in that time frame.
For me it feels exactly right in-line, I think at time's it feel's like you get owned because someone does a nice 50% accuracy on you for a few seconds..this is just nice aiming, the same when someone lands 4 nex shot's in a row on you, the same when someone fires 3 crylink primary shot's and everyone hit's you, we all should know that this doesn't happen often.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Halogene - 01-06-2011
I agree.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - FraNcoTirAdoR - 01-06-2011
Yeah right, I also realize now that once you pick up the weapon you can get one kill with the whole "magazine" while its 2-3 with rocket launcher for example. Probably damage increasement is better idea then. My aim with electro sometimes averages around 37-39%, and still takes painfully long to kill someone, there is possibly a little dps issue.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Mirio - 01-06-2011
Don't forget that the Electro got a huge push (fucking useful and strong in space maps to push people off), so you can push the enemy on a wall and he kinda can't escape, nor hit you that good. And obviously the combo is strong as well. I think the Electro is just fine at the moment.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - FruitieX - 01-07-2011
I agree.
BTW I'm home!
(finally!!) xDD
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Halogene - 01-07-2011
(01-06-2011, 09:07 PM)Mirio Wrote: Don't forget that the Electro got a huge push (fucking useful and strong in space maps to push people off), so you can push the enemy on a wall and he kinda can't escape, nor hit you that good. And obviously the combo is strong as well. I think the Electro is just fine at the moment.
Electro has a huge push? Didn't know that! Cool.
We need more space maps! :o)
Edit: I think we should reduce the damage of the hagar a bit. I feel it is rather easy to hit with it and it does really a lot of damage in short time. Dunno about its dps, but I felt it was the most easiest weapon to kill with on for example stormkeep or red planet, and rather quickly got feedback from my opponents that I should stop the spamming (I was very effective). Today is the second time I immediately received complaints when I started using it.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 01-07-2011
Not as ridiculous as it used to be, it's more in line with the push of other weapons now, and you need to be pushing someone who is either in the air going away from you, or who is standing still, if there running at you, you won't push them back very far at all, just to clarify
Anyhow, I think FruitieX should make small dps change to the MG so we can test that and see if it is better.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Halogene - 01-07-2011
yes, MG a bit stronger and Hagar a bit weaker. I think that's all the balance needs.
Actually, has anybody considered giving the laser still a bit stronger push for direct hits? The air control is so powerful in Xonotic, that I think the laser could do with some more push if you hit your target directly (which is rather difficult, especially on long range). Just an idea, what do you think? I know I've been pestering you all the time about the laser and I am very happy with how it is now! This is just an idea to consider.
My reason behind this: actually the only situations I can imagine that you fire with the laser at someone is that you want to push them away. If people are on the ground, you'd typically try to hit the ground next to them. So the only situation where this would become effective would be when you shoot at someone willingly that is in mid-air. If you manage to hit someone mid-air with the laser we could reward him with a higher push force I think (given the increased air control). I cannot think about any negative side-effects... again, just an idea.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 01-07-2011
I'm not against that as long as it doesn't get implemented too strongly, i'd prefer it to be in line with the push force of the other weapons though to keep the overall balance level and not have a ridiculous push force. How about we try a small increase nothing mental if it's possible and see how it is?
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Halogene - 01-07-2011
I'm all for it. As I wrote, I am happy with the laser as is, and more push force for direct hits would only make me more happy.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - FraNcoTirAdoR - 01-07-2011
Merged TAG+Hagar anyone?
I already had this idea for nexuiz a while ago too, where the tags tracer dot+seeker missiles could be on hagars secondary (the launching would look cool, and missiles could be the same size as hagar primary), so people would probably use this weapon more often. Players usually are not a big fan of TAG, and the model doesnt look as cool as hagars. Of course some balancing would have to be done, but this would make hagar usable on open and closed maps.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 01-07-2011
The MG is officially useless as the same range as the electro, just tried to shoot Unknown with it on soylent2 even when he stands still must of wasted half a mag on him and not one hit with primary.
Looks like the spread is ridiculously huge, so it's useful for nothing but very very close range, can we address this and the secondary strength asap please
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - nowego4 - 01-07-2011
I like the underhand design of Seeker, I think merging it would make it REALLY powerful, but then I'm better at using Seeker than most.
...
I think we should edit the health/armor system so that the armor lines up with the health system a little more. Suggestion:
Code:
set g_pickup_armorsmall 5
set g_pickup_armorsmall_max 150
set g_pickup_armorsmall_anyway 0
set g_pickup_armormedium 25
set g_pickup_armormedium_max 100
set g_pickup_armormedium_anyway 0
set g_pickup_armorbig 50
set g_pickup_armorbig_max 150
set g_pickup_armorbig_anyway 0
set g_pickup_armorlarge 100
set g_pickup_armorlarge_max 150
set g_pickup_armorlarge_anyway 0
set g_pickup_healthsmall 5
set g_pickup_healthsmall_max 250
set g_pickup_healthsmall_anyway 0
set g_pickup_healthmedium 25
set g_pickup_healthmedium_max 100
set g_pickup_healthmedium_anyway 0
set g_pickup_healthlarge 50
set g_pickup_healthlarge_max 150
set g_pickup_healthlarge_anyway 0
set g_pickup_healthmega 100
set g_pickup_healthmega_max 250
set g_pickup_healthmega_anyway 0Right now the armor system seems completely unrelated to the health system, and it makes it hard to remember when you can pick up what and if it will do you any good (e.g. you run around picking up 5hp but you're already maxed out, but since it keeps picking them up you keep trying to collect).
The MG is still quite powerful at close range (because you can land almost all your shots) but with the secondary changed to bursts, it is no longer a weapon with any range. This wouldn't usually be a big deal, except that the shotgun melee is powerful as well, so if your opponent has enough sense and skill he will switch from his precision instrument of death and go to the shotgun and land a melee.
The Crylink's fire pattern has made it more deadly, because if you are really close OR at the meet distance you will land all your shots--with the old fire pattern you had to be close to do that. It's secondary is not as deadly as the HLAC because the projectiles are slower--which makes you have to lead much more than the HLAC and gives the opponent a better chance at dodging them.
The Electro secondary solves much of the problems it had in Nexuiz (the spamming) because it limits you to three balls which is plenty for a trap, although I would like to see it use a little less ammo (the secondary). I don't think the primary should have any more damage than it does now, a guy from Quake/Warsow totally dominated g-23 (actually it was the same round I got my Jan2011 FOTM candidate) with it (his name was 'Necrophag1st').
@FruitieX: Did you have a good vacation in Florida?
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - tZork - 01-08-2011
After playing quite a bit here my toughs sofar
Laser: a bit odd that you get higher jumps from just moving little. otherwise feels good.
Shotty: primary to slow and to wide spread imo, frustrating and sorta spammy. damage seems ok tough. Secondary is perf.
Uzi: little to weak over all. a bit to much maximum spread.
mortar: preddy good, Id like secondary have less health so you can gl sec+laser jump again.
electro: no xD (really cant reconcile loosing the old primary, and i did really try). Primary to powerfully in experienced hands, secondary/combo looses much of its meaning. I fear this will be the new nex (in the sense it will be the constantly changing and debated gun)
Crylink: primary good'ish maybe a tad to high maximum damage and a tad to slow. secondary: useless/duplicate (see below)
HLAC: primary decent, secondary decent. overall uninteresting gun now (see below)
Hagar: Spamfactory with capital S. Not necessarily bad but i do feel it takes less skill and roe luck to frag with. Secondary fairly pointless compared to crylink prim.
Nex: To complicated. Slightly underpowered in general use.
Rifle: Horrible switchdelay. i really H A T E it. Damage wize ok, would like to see similar headshot damage but less on body. Secondary bleh yuck, silenced sneekage sucage. sorry cant stand it.
Rocket Launcher: Ok i guess. i prefer larger boom and less guidance, but thats just me. Visual effect needs to reflect the smaller radius better. Does rockets have a shedload of health? Dosent seem like they blow up by by eg mortar fire anymore.
T.A.G. Primary fires to many rockets, Secondary is fucked up again (its supposed to be anti missile!).
Fireball, Porto, Hook: "funny guns", not relevant to main balance IMO (perhaps tag belongs here too, at least for DM'ish modes)
EDIT: forgot minelayer:
Preddy interesting gun, damage seems balanced maybe a tad to much force. Bering able to detonate mines rather soon in the air makes it doubles as a sorta rl/gl; not sure if thats good or bad. Id recommend NOT putting this gun on DM'ish maps tough as it can be quite disruptive in non objective game-play IMO.
"(see below)"
To many rapid fire projectile weapons now, with similar dps, rof and radius. I propose deleting hagar all together, moving lightning to crylink secondary (and maybe switch so cry primary is lightning) and restore old electro primary. This way theres one rapid fire projectile gun, you sill have your beloved shaft and me and the likes get their beloved electro.
Net effect: Despite this may sound harsh, i have to point out i consider this a better balance as a whole then Nexuiz ever had. However i dont believe in "stfu cuz it could be worse"
As I will be doing the necessary code/config changes to see how my take on things would be in a branch, theres no imminent need to change/implement anything said above "just because" but only if you actually agree with it. ill post a new thread once that branch is ready for testing.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Lee_Stricklin - 01-08-2011
(01-07-2011, 11:34 AM)FraNcoTirAdoR Wrote: Merged TAG+Hagar anyone?
NO!!1!1!!!1
btw, look at my signature lol
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Mirio - 01-08-2011
@tZork:
The Crylink secondary is not useless at all, use it in small hallways and you will kill your opponent. Also the primary is just fine, if you make it faster but less damage it is the same effect when you keep the current settings - slow but strong. I like the Crylink and use it much.
Rifle is just fine, because without the delay you could use it very very good (quick combos) in close range fights..hit 1 rifle shot, finish off with RL. It would be kinda like Nexuiz Nex. The (CAMPING) Rifle is not supposed to be for close fights.
TAG Seeker belongs to normal weapons, because mappers start to put it into DM maps (e.g. maze). Its probably a little strong (1-2 less rockets) in DM.
I like the balance pretty much at the moment. Though I believe that HLAC secondary is way too strong (and like people already said, MG too weak).
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - tZork - 01-08-2011
@Mirio I dont mean crylink secondary cant be used; i mean its redundant among all those rapid fire projectile weapons. And I disagree with the "camping rifle philosophy"; better make it usable in combos and tune the damage to reflect this.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Lee_Stricklin - 01-08-2011
I've always thought of the rifle as this:
Advance, grab a spot, plink some shots, advance, grab a spot, plink some shots... It should also be noted that it's a really hard weapon to master (especially in combos) not to mention risky to use, therefore it should be rewarding for players that actually take the time to properly learn how to use it.
(01-08-2011, 09:10 AM)tZork Wrote: @Mirio I dont mean crylink secondary cant be used; i mean its redundant among all those rapid fire projectile weapons. And I disagree with the "camping rifle philosophy"; better make it usable in combos and tune the damage to reflect this.
I've been complaining about that since Xonotic had 2.6 SVN balance... Initially the HLAC and the rifle weren't taken seriously (they were treated as "bonus" weapons) in this balance, and I've recently seen Fruitiex recommend using the rifle instead of the nex and just having the nex removed all together due to it being too hard to balance. The other two major balances (one of which is actually online right now, just look for a server with like 300 changes to it, the other one which is mine, has been recently updated) actually gave those weapons the proper treatment they deserve from the very beginning. btw, what's the deal with this crappy beam thingy trying to pass itself off as the electro and could the secondary be any more useless?
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 01-08-2011
By the way it's the SNIPER Rifle now, not camping rifle
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - nowego4 - 01-08-2011
I think one of the main reasons why the Electro balance is so controversial is that both the old and new primary are pretty much unique from other weapons we have. Up to now, (most) people have been arguing over which one is "better", and not considering that we have (see third section) three weapons that, while not exactly alike or useless, have uncanny similarities. Why not replace some of these duplicates with the old Electro primary and whatever other distinct fire modes we can up with?
As for exactly where to put the lightning shaft/old Elector pulse, I haven't thought about it much, but the more people thinking about it, the more ideas we'll have. Right now I don't think we should put the lightning shaft on the Crylink, it would be very powerful then. Hopefully I'll have more ideas after playing a little more.
And in consistency with the Law of Opposites, the Hagar, Crylink, and HLAC are getting a lot of bad reputation coming their way because the Hagar's secondary is similar to the Crylink's primary, and the Crylink's secondary is similar to the HLAC's primary.
I don't think all of us use the Rifle alike. I use it for my "charge in, do a lot of damage, and get out alive" tactic on CTF, and other team games where the enemy is bunched up. After charging in and getting out, I go restock on health, get some ammo, maybe reload, and do it again. Others might camp with it, and put the crosshairs on the flag and wait (a valid tactic, if unpopular). Still others might get some idea from it's name and go find a mountain to sit on. I find close range headshots to have the most potential, but that depends on your shooting style/skill.
The Rifle's secondary has been met negatively by all players I've seen, I think this requires some rewriting. Perhaps the clip reload could be put here, or even a zoom (if other player would use it), or possibly a previous weapon switcher (like the Laser) that would help in combos.
I really don't get what's so complicated about the Nex. The blue ring is how much charge the weapon has, and the red ring is how much you can charge the weapon. I could do with both the rings being a little brighter, maybe an adjustable opacity slider would be in order.
On a positive note, the HLAC is much better than in Nexuiz, it is now usable because the spread was turned down on the primary--it differs a bit more from the Hagar than it did in 2.5.2.
I hope that much text is manageable and that people will start thinking about how to incorporate both the old Electro primary and the new one, instead of just promoting their favorite. +1 for tZork here.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Mirio - 01-08-2011
(01-08-2011, 10:33 AM)kojn^ Wrote: By the way it's the SNIPER Rifle now, not camping rifle
I just wanted to point out that its (IMO) for long range usage.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Lee_Stricklin - 01-08-2011
(01-08-2011, 10:33 AM)kojn^ Wrote: By the way it's the SNIPER Rifle now, not camping rifle
Really? I'm not a big gun freak, but the thing acts more like a carbine than an extreme-range rifle. Looks like one too.
(01-08-2011, 12:33 PM)nowego4 Wrote: I think one of the main reasons why the Electro balance is so controversial is that both the old and new primary are pretty much unique from other weapons we have. Up to now, (most) people have been arguing over which one is "better", and not considering that we have (see third section) three weapons that, while not exactly alike or useless, have uncanny similarities. Why not replace some of these duplicates with the old Electro primary and whatever other distinct fire modes we can up with?
That's just like saying the Enforcer is identical to the sniper rifle in UT99 or that the shock rifle is also basically the same thing as the sniper rifle. I don't think anybody is really against adding a lightning function to one of the weapons, HOWEVER we do have a problem with the electro having it because the secondary on the weapon was rendered useless due to the primary being able to properly compliment it. In my opinion the crylink or laser probably would've good weapons to try similar functions on.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 01-08-2011
The secondary is not useless, I just think that you do not use it either enough, or in the right situations, it's a brilliant defensive weapon using the combo exploding then switching to primary.
Also, do you care to enlighten why it is useless?