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+--- Thread: balanceFruit.cfg (/showthread.php?tid=725)
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Flying Steel - 07-26-2010
(07-26-2010, 06:28 PM)unknownnf Wrote: Nex has the one of the lowest dps of the game, also reverse falloff is just plain weird, the weapon should be natural. It is balanced and I won't have to look for another long range weapon, the falloff is just great it does approximately 60 damage at far range. How much weaker do you want it?
For the next test I'd like to see falloff start at like 600qu and level off at 1800qu and maybe set base damage at 80.
And again, you can give the Nex negative force to slow/stop carriers.
Also reverse falloff isn't any more weird than switch delay.
Quote:At close range it's really hard to hit with it, skill takes over, it should be awarded and you have plenty of ways to counter at all ranges, be it mg/cr at far range and push weapons at close range.
But you don't have to lead or predict, just point and shoot. That's just as easy at close range. And there aren't any possible long range counters that have been tested yet.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Roanoke - 07-26-2010
Reverse falloff with stickiness will make nex even more of a camping weapon. Remove the stickiness and have a bit of regular falloff, perhaps even lower damage to the 80-90 range with headshot at about 100 or so. This would make it balanced and combo-friendly.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - FruitieX - 07-27-2010
(07-26-2010, 06:12 PM)Flying Steel Wrote: For example, if the Nex delivered negative force, a bit like the crylink, it could strongly counter carriers without being the hand of Zeus in normal combat.Now this sounds like a very interesting idea which has to be tried out
(07-26-2010, 06:12 PM)Flying Steel Wrote: However, since the records show a definite advantage for the Nex and its stats haven't been changed greatly from where it was in 2.5, whereas the other weapons have been mostly nerfed (except the electro), there's plenty of reason to see the Nex is still plenty overpowered.Should do like QuakeLive did, and nerf the rail to 80 ignoring all the whiners about that. In the days where everyone had ball mice it made sense with a 100+ dmg rail, but that's just way overpowered today in the world of 5000 DPI laser mice.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Beefeater - 07-27-2010
(07-27-2010, 05:31 AM)FruitieX Wrote: Should do like QuakeLive did, and nerf the rail to 80 ignoring all the whiners about that. In the days where everyone had ball mice it made sense with a 100+ dmg rail, but that's just way overpowered today in the world of 5000 DPI laser mice.
Do it like in CPMA. nerf it and make it fire faster. But there still isn't hope for merging nex and cr, is there?
And negative push is a cool idea.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 07-27-2010
Flying_Steel, just seems like mainly yourself has an issue with the nex, I honestly can not see a problem with it, like Unknown said it's already balanced enough, how weak do you want to make it...............
Don't see the point of merging the nex + CR, Either have one or the other. Has anyone even used the chance to use the 'Rifle' in testing in the last 2 days, replacing the nex with that and trying it out?
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Halogene - 07-27-2010
Personally I like the negative force idea for the nex. I just tested it a bit and found it quite amusing... (no surprise, I know...) it is also very useful on the crylink - with the fast secondary you can draw players from medium range closer and then finish them off with the very effective primary at close combat.
I also think that since you get very high speeds very easily with those physics, negative force weapons might really be needed for CTF games.
I do not think that the nex needs to be nerfed any further, but I won't object to that either.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Flying Steel - 07-27-2010
(07-27-2010, 06:52 AM)kojn^ Wrote: Flying_Steel, just seems like mainly yourself has an issue with the nex, I honestly can not see a problem with it, like Unknown said it's already balanced enough, how weak do you want to make it...............
I'd like to not end up gravitating to it whenever I have it and I'm playing to win. And I'd like to not feel like I'm playing dirty pool when I use it. Or see everyone use it as their primary weapon for every situation when enough are available on a server. I want it to be just another weapon with it's own little niche, whatever that is, and balanced for most maps.
And as you can see it is very high on the table, and the only weapon that did better than it (electro primary) will have a nerf. So this should get a nerf as well.
Also negative force will be a buff to it, don't forget that. I take, but I also give.
Quote:Don't see the point of merging the nex + CR, Either have one or the other. Has anyone even used the chance to use the 'Rifle' in testing in the last 2 days, replacing the nex with that and trying it out?
We need to test that and also the HLAC, TAG Seeker and Fireball.
Can I normal visitor vcall a weapon switch on the server? Anyone remember the command?
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - FruitieX - 07-27-2010
(07-27-2010, 09:16 AM)Flying Steel Wrote: And as you can see it is very high on the table, and the only weapon that did better than it (electro primary) will have a nerf. So this should get a nerf as well.In the end the nex was in fact on the top, so I gave it 80 dmg and restarted weapons stats on the server for testing.
(07-27-2010, 09:16 AM)Flying Steel Wrote: Also negative force will be a buff to it, don't forget that. I take, but I also give.I think it makes it weaker. Pulling the enemy closer to you means that every weapon in the enemy arsenal except the Nex becomes more useful. Nex gets harder to hit with in close combat as someone mentioned before.
(07-27-2010, 09:16 AM)Flying Steel Wrote: We need to test that and also the HLAC, TAG Seeker and Fireball.We need a map with them, or a switch to turn on all weapons.
(07-27-2010, 09:16 AM)Flying Steel Wrote: Can I normal visitor vcall a weapon switch on the server? Anyone remember the command?I think I'll add that vote in fact...
The command "weapall" should soon toggle all weapons/normal weapons on the server...
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 07-27-2010
Not a fan of negative push, purely because it's like 'lockdown'. I remember the Minigun doing that in UT2004, so you couldn't move basically if someone was shooting you with it, and it's the most annoying thing possible that I remember it getting disabled pretty fast on most server's I played on after
I will however try this with the nex, but let's not just focus on CTF in mind, also need to remember these settings have to work well in all game modes, what may be good way to slow a FC down in CTF could have very bad 'lockdown' effect that I speak of in other game mode's, which would be extremely frustrating.
By the way, FrutieX, what have you set negative push to on crylink..primary or secondary or both..again need to see what this does in other game-modes as I'm pretty sure it acts like being locked down.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Roanoke - 07-27-2010
Lockdown is only an issue with fast firing weapons. Since nex is not fast firing, lockdown won't be a problem.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Agamalama - 07-27-2010
(07-27-2010, 09:16 AM)Flying Steel Wrote: And I'd like to not feel like I'm playing dirty pool when I use it. Or see everyone use it as their primary weapon for every situation when enough are available on a server. I want it to be just another weapon with it's own little niche, whatever that is, and balanced for most maps.
Blame the maps. Because it is quite hard to kill someone without a nex that is laser jumping across, say like dance. And its the only useful super long range weapon and half the maps out right now have super wide open spaces which makes people only use the nex.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - FruitieX - 07-27-2010
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knVy8NdwPO8
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Flying Steel - 07-27-2010
(07-27-2010, 11:38 AM)Agamalama Wrote: Blame the maps. Because it is quite hard to kill someone without a nex that is laser jumping across, say like dance.
Heh, well dance is an official map now so an official balance should take its own maps into consideration, methinks. The official xonotic maps are mostly open in general too.
More importantly, you can't blame the maps, because people don't have to play them. But they choose to play and vote for them over and over, more and more; open maps are extremely popular to the point that they are almost all there is, at least in CTF. Ignoring this trend cannot lead to good things, imo.
And if laser jumping is still too powerful, then that should be handled by rebalancing the laser, not the nex.
Quote:And its the only useful super long range weapon and half the maps out right now have super wide open spaces which makes people only use the nex.
Then it's time to pull the nex back a bit at ranged fighting and make other weapons of the arsenal more long range focused.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 07-27-2010
I think the weapons do enough damage so far, that it will make it very hard for an opponent to get into and out of a base just lasering as it will take up quite some health, once more the problem with people just lasering ridiculously high is no longer a big concern, which makes the other weapons much more easier to hit them with then before.
The problem only exists on super long maps in general, courtfun for example, whilst it is quite open in areas, it is enclosed, has a roof etc and isn't just massively open like greatwall/facingworlds and these types of maps, and you can see your opponent attacking a mile away, it also has weapons in base that can easily stop an attacker, so such a map would require some teamwork, I would like to see a few more CTF maps that are enclosed and have a roof etc, with good flow.
I really like condensed because getting in and out of the base, isn't going to be so easy and you need some movement skill to get out also.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Flying Steel - 07-27-2010
If no version of Accident makes it into Xonotic I will never smile again.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Cuinnton - 07-28-2010
Quote:If no version of Accident makes it into Xonotic I will never smile again.Accident can be made much better imo, in layout and graphics. Although it is a huge level and will take 3 months to make properly.
I would prefer to remake moonstone but we will have to see peoples opinions on a new thread. Also there is no .map file for moonstone i can find
Back to topic!
Liking the balance atm. 2 things I'd like to see.
- Making electro balls sticky instead of mortar. Reason being mortar can be used like a laser alternative. Also the timed mines are not easily seen, where electro balls are. Sticky electro ball also make combos much easier
- Camping rifle being a weaker version of the Nex. I would love to see the nex pass through walls instead of the rifle. This gives mappers more flexibility, allow us to create maps which focus on nex stacking, or without nex stacking but still having the new weapon function available
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Halogene - 07-29-2010
Of course we could also enhance visibility of the sticky grenades... not so sure about sticky electro. Would have to try that out, though...
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - FruitieX - 07-29-2010
(07-28-2010, 09:17 PM)Cuinnton Wrote: I would prefer to remake moonstone but we will have to see peoples opinions on a new thread. Also there is no .map file for moonstone i can findMoonstone ain't GPL, so before you start working (i.e. decompiling) you gotta contact the authors and make sure it's ok
(07-28-2010, 09:17 PM)Cuinnton Wrote: Back to topic!
Liking the balance atm. 2 things I'd like to see.
- Making electro balls sticky instead of mortar. Reason being mortar can be used like a laser alternative. Also the timed mines are not easily seen, where electro balls are. Sticky electro ball also make combos much easier
- Camping rifle being a weaker version of the Nex. I would love to see the nex pass through walls instead of the rifle. This gives mappers more flexibility, allow us to create maps which focus on nex stacking, or without nex stacking but still having the new weapon function available
The electro blobs are already easy enough to detonate IMO, if you would be able to just easily select where to land them it'd become a way overpowered weapon...
The camping rifle already is pretty much that, a weaker version of the nex (without falloff though). It now also has reload back again.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 07-29-2010
1) Why have you put reload back on?
2) Can you make the mag size bigger if that's the case, like from 8 to 10 or 12 , already need to do 3 shots to kill someone without hitting a headshot so i'm thinking of in multiple opponent situations, or if it's kept at 8 make the gun a little more powerful maybe(maybe make HS's more).
3) Is there anyway to put the ability in so that you can manually reload the rifle without having to wait for it to deplete it's mag before it does it automatically..this would be much better.
4) That's about it!
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - jaykay - 07-29-2010
i dont like reloading in xonotic at all. it doesnt fit to the fast gameplay and the overall style.
the electro secondary refire is too high. i can make a 9-ball-combo with that. i suggest increasing the delay between the 3-ball-....succession?
i suggest headshot of nex or rifle = instant death. or at least making headshots so powerful that you must have lots of armor and health to survive one. i mean, its a headshot of a wall-penetrating or light-speed-bullet. it should vaporize your brain and not just be a bit more powerful than normal hits.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Halogene - 07-29-2010
(07-29-2010, 08:34 AM)jaykay Wrote: i dont like reloading in xonotic at all. it doesnt fit to the fast gameplay and the overall style.I think it depends on the damage the weapon deals. It's about weapon balance - if the weapon would be too powerful if constantly usable for close combat, then a reload might be the right way to balance this out.
(07-29-2010, 08:34 AM)jaykay Wrote: i suggest headshot of nex or rifle = instant death. or at least making headshots so powerful that you must have lots of armor and health to survive one. i mean, its a headshot of a wall-penetrating or light-speed-bullet. it should vaporize your brain and not just be a bit more powerful than normal hits.Argumenting with realism has seldomly succeeded in Xonotic :o) I think, this is also about balance. Having a weapon that behaves like a minsta nex in non-minsta game modes (even if you need to make a head shot), is too strong imho. The same applies if you'd have to stack up to 200/200 to survive it. I find myself making head shots rather often even though I don't aim for the head specifically. Making head shots seems like sheer luck to me, given the fast movement of the opponent. That's also why I am not too fond of the head shot concept altogether, but I don't feel uncomfortable enough with it to complain about it. :o)
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - theShadow - 07-29-2010
is it possible to set it so you can only get headshots when you are zoomed in?
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Roanoke - 07-29-2010
That would be silly.
The rifle and nex should be merged, because they are extremely similar, the only thing that sets them apart is their damage and the headshot ability of the rifle.
Sticky electro would not be overpowered because a. everyone will know where they are (they make sounds, they make light) and b. you cannot spam a whole lot of them in fruitbalance.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - FruitieX - 07-29-2010
(07-29-2010, 06:42 AM)kojn^ Wrote: 1) Why have you put reload back on?To prevent you (yes, YOU
) from going on a killing spree into the enemy base with the CR. It's a long range weapon, and this "feature" restricts it to precisely that. The reload hardly affects anything when camping (just makes it a little more annoying perhaps), but is bad for you in close range.(07-29-2010, 06:42 AM)kojn^ Wrote: 2) Can you make the mag size bigger if that's the case, like from 8 to 10 or 12 , already need to do 3 shots to kill someone without hitting a headshot so i'm thinking of in multiple opponent situations, or if it's kept at 8 make the gun a little more powerful maybe(maybe make HS's more).Would rather not, see above.
The gun was already made a little more powerful, and 4 bullets was suggested by Unknown. Many thought it was a good idea.
(07-29-2010, 06:42 AM)kojn^ Wrote: 3) Is there anyway to put the ability in so that you can manually reload the rifle without having to wait for it to deplete it's mag before it does it automatically..this would be much better.There has been a reload button since the camping rifle was implemented afaik.
(07-29-2010, 06:42 AM)kojn^ Wrote: 4) That's about it!Thank you come again
(07-29-2010, 08:34 AM)jaykay Wrote: the electro secondary refire is too high. i can make a 9-ball-combo with that. i suggest increasing the delay between the 3-ball-....succession?I agree, but people apparently thought it was too weak.
(07-29-2010, 08:34 AM)jaykay Wrote: i suggest headshot of nex or rifle = instant death. or at least making headshots so powerful that you must have lots of armor and health to survive one. i mean, its a headshot of a wall-penetrating or light-speed-bullet. it should vaporize your brain and not just be a bit more powerful than normal hits.
Making them more powerful I agree to, but no 100% sure instakill IMO.
(07-29-2010, 11:18 AM)theShadow Wrote: is it possible to set it so you can only get headshots when you are zoomed in?
No, this is too easy to cheat around:
Make your fire button also zoom in during the frame which you shoot.
(07-29-2010, 11:25 AM)Roanoke Wrote: The rifle and nex should be merged, because they are extremely similar, the only thing that sets them apart is their damage and the headshot ability of the rifle.And the rate of fire, and being able to shoot the rifle bullets through walls, and the rifle secondary spam mode, and the reload. I could go on.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - jaykay - 07-29-2010
i my opinion the nex should be wall-penetrating, able to do (powerful) headshots, do high damage even with a normal hit, have a high reload time and zoom as secondary.
the rifle should be less powerful, should NOT be wall-penetrating and headshots should NOT do extra damage. the reload time should be lower, and the secondary could be something else.
the reason for this is that the nex should be one of the most powerful weapons. therefore all the "features" (wall-penetrating, headshot), but no secondary as the primary should be reason enough to use it (as the rocketlauncher, it's also powerful and it's secondary is also not really a firemode). the camping rifle is just a rifle. it fires the same bullets as the mg does. therefore it shouldnt be so powerful, and may have a secondary.
the camping rifle would just be another weapon placed like any other weapon. the nex would be a special weapon placed in hidden or hard-to-reach places.