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+--- Thread: balanceFruit.cfg (/showthread.php?tid=725)
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Flying Steel - 07-29-2010
I'm not sure if the physics have changed since sunday or if it's just that I have had more time to test them but. . .
I don't like this increased acceleration and how it affects the weapon balance by making spam more important with the non-hitscan weapons. In the past there was more skill involved in leading your target and guessing what he might do next, but when he can change directions so fast that he can just step out of the way, such skills are not rewarded. Especially since the speed which was 320 is now back up to 400.
The rocket launcher could use some tweaking too-- it's spread too thin across guidance, remote detonation "flak" burst and simple spam. Guidance and remote detonation are features that work really well together and make the weapon interesting and very original. However spamming with the fast refire does not.
The refire delay should be increased, maybe to 1.0 second and a slight buff added to either the turning rate, radius, damage, acceleration or speed.
Electro secondary still seems useless, maybe that's due in part to the too fast acceleration of the physics. But still, I have yet to see any successful combo trap in a test match, it simply takes too long to set up and only works on flat ground (and on top of that the payoff is relatively weak).
Finally, with so many weapons, you end up with some duplicates. There just aren't enough ways to change weapons to keep 13 of them totally balanced and yet different from each other. I think there are two ways to make this work though.
One is what Roanoke suggested, where you merge weapons that are too similar, while keeping the best features of each in the resulting product.
The other is to divide the weapons up into two distinct "factions", where each has a somewhat different weapon that fills a roughly equivalent role.
It might go something like this:
MG ---- Crylink
GL ---- Electro
Hagar ---- HLAC
CR ---- Nex
RL ---- Fireball
TAGS ---- ?
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 07-29-2010
Agree with jaykay actually, would like to see headshots do a lot more damage, I wouldn't mind seeing it do exactly the health of a freshly spawned player or just over, so 125 or 130 for a headshot, this would be one hit kills on non-armoured opponents, but it would still require a few shots to take down a stacked 200/200.
Make headshots then do a one shot kill for an opponent with starting health imo, but not so it does like one shot kill on everything that would then be dumb.
So:-
60dmg for single hit?
125/130 dmg for headshot
EDIT!!
Just realised you meant the secondary have the small mag..I hate the secondary with a passion, would just prefer a scope to be honest
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Roanoke - 07-29-2010
(07-29-2010, 11:32 AM)FruitieX Wrote: And the rate of fire, and being able to shoot the rifle bullets through walls, and the rifle secondary spam mode, and the reload. I could go on.
Rate of fire is just a cvar, it's meaningless, secondary spam mode is just another machine gun, and reload is in a constant state of limbo, being added and removed.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - unknownnf - 07-29-2010
(07-29-2010, 01:01 PM)Flying Steel Wrote: I'm not sure if the physics have changed since sunday or if it's just that I have had more time to test them but. . .
I don't like this increased acceleration and how it affects the weapon balance by making spam more important with the non-hitscan weapons. In the past there was more skill involved in leading your target and guessing what he might do next, but when he can change directions so fast that he can just step out of the way, such skills are not rewarded. Especially since the speed which was 320 is now back up to 400.
The rocket launcher could use some tweaking too-- it's spread too thin across guidance, remote detonation "flak" burst and simple spam. Guidance and remote detonation are features that work really well together and make the weapon interesting and very original. However spamming with the fast refire does not.
The refire delay should be increased, maybe to 1.0 second and a slight buff added to either the turning rate, radius, damage, acceleration or speed.
Electro secondary still seems useless, maybe that's due in part to the too fast acceleration of the physics. But still, I have yet to see any successful combo trap in a test match, it simply takes too long to set up and only works on flat ground (and on top of that the payoff is relatively weak).
Finally, with so many weapons, you end up with some duplicates. There just aren't enough ways to change weapons to keep 13 of them totally balanced and yet different from each other. I think there are two ways to make this work though.
One is what Roanoke suggested, where you merge weapons that are too similar, while keeping the best features of each in the resulting product.
The other is to divide the weapons up into two distinct "factions", where each has a somewhat different weapon that fills a roughly equivalent role.
It might go something like this:
MG ---- Crylink
GL ---- Electro
Hagar ---- HLAC
CR ---- Nex
RL ---- Fireball
TAGS ---- ?
The current physics and balance is much more skill attuned than anything nexuiz ever had.
Rocet Launcher is quite fine at the moment, in Nexuiz the fact that you couldn't miss with it was a huge advantage, the current settings require a lot more skill and planning of shots to get the most out of the weapon and then becomes quite fearsome, this weapons is the one that shows the skill focus of the balance the most, how you want to change will just hurt gameplay.
Electro secondary is quite useful, tough total damage is a bit weak atm I believe, probably a bit higher edge damage to increase minimum damage would help. I've successfully used it a lot of times, just like Fruitiex did.
I am quite against the merging of the weapons, the current settings except in some cases give a lot of original ideas and unique uses for each weapon. Mergin GL with Electro, Cr with Nex, RL with Fireball is just plain insane, these weapons are wildly different one from another, some similarities do not mean anything. Fireball could become a super weapon tough, like 1 shot and extreme damage, 30 - 60 sec re-spawn, I've suggested this super-weapon idea for a while now, in it's current state it can't really be balanced. as a super-weapon it just won't matter and it's uses will be severely limited.
If reload is implemented in this balance it will stay for good, however then cr needs a lot more head-shot damage like kojn suggested.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - jaykay - 07-29-2010
(07-29-2010, 12:42 PM)jaykay Wrote: i my opinion the nex should be wall-penetrating, able to do (powerful) headshots, do high damage even with a normal hit, have a high reload time and zoom as secondary.
the rifle should be less powerful, should NOT be wall-penetrating and headshots should NOT do extra damage. the reload time should be lower, and the secondary could be something else.
the reason for this is that the nex should be one of the most powerful weapons. therefore all the "features" (wall-penetrating, headshot), but no secondary as the primary should be reason enough to use it (as the rocketlauncher, it's also powerful and it's secondary is also not really a firemode). the camping rifle is just a rifle. it fires the same bullets as the mg does. therefore it shouldnt be so powerful, and may have a secondary.
the camping rifle would just be another weapon placed like any other weapon. the nex would be a special weapon placed in hidden or hard-to-reach places.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - theShadow - 07-29-2010
a lot of games have similar faction based weapons. That would make a lot of sense, considering the direction the story is going.
and I think that is what Flying steel meant.
MG ---- Crylink
GL ---- Electro
Hagar ---- HLAC
CR ---- Nex
RL ---- Fireball
TAGS ---- ?
dividing the weapons into 2 different factions
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - FruitieX - 07-29-2010
(07-29-2010, 12:42 PM)jaykay Wrote: it fires the same bullets as the mg does.
Except that it fires 10 of them at once
(07-29-2010, 01:01 PM)Flying Steel Wrote: I don't like this increased acceleration and how it affects the weapon balance by making spam more important with the non-hitscan weapons. In the past there was more skill involved in leading your target and guessing what he might do next, but when he can change directions so fast that he can just step out of the way, such skills are not rewarded. Especially since the speed which was 320 is now back up to 400.
I somewhat agree here. Fast ground accel is nice in the way that it makes the feeling more fast-paced, but also makes it very easy to dodge projectiles. We still have to take this into serious consideration, and in the end it's about picking either one... I've always had this feeling in Nexuiz that I don't have much control over my opponent/where he moves, at least compared to QuakeLive. But hey, might not be a bad thing either...
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - divVerent - 07-29-2010
The speed was not 320 for long, and got switched back to 400 due to numerous complaints.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Flying Steel - 07-29-2010
(07-29-2010, 02:42 PM)FruitieX Wrote:(07-29-2010, 01:01 PM)Flying Steel Wrote: I don't like this increased acceleration and how it affects the weapon balance by making spam more important with the non-hitscan weapons. In the past there was more skill involved in leading your target and guessing what he might do next, but when he can change directions so fast that he can just step out of the way, such skills are not rewarded. Especially since the speed which was 320 is now back up to 400.
I somewhat agree here. Fast ground accel is nice in the way that it makes the feeling more fast-paced, but also makes it very easy to dodge projectiles. We still have to take this into serious consideration, and in the end it's about picking either one... I've always had this feeling in Nexuiz that I don't have much control over my opponent/where he moves, at least compared to QuakeLive. But hey, might not be a bad thing either...
Even if it's not a bad thing necessarily, it is surely a bad thing when it can be done forever.
For example, the laser runs you out of health, grappling and jetting run you out of fuel and in other games evasive abilities like sprint or bullet time also last for only finite bursts. Ramp jumps and jump pads only work when you are nearby one.
But just turning up normal acceleration so high allows you to dodge traveling projectiles indefinitely.
If you want to make the game faster without breaking things, you have to do that as a mapper, not a coder. Just make some more claustrophobic labyrinth type environments and you'll have fast gameplay with good balance and skill, instead of with heavy spam, random chance and hitscan dominance.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - FruitieX - 07-29-2010
(07-29-2010, 04:20 PM)Flying Steel Wrote: Just make some more claustrophobic labyrinth type environments and you'll have fast gameplay with good balance and skill, instead of with heavy spam, random chance and hitscan dominance.
Wow, my words. I would personally prefer each and every map being like this, with only a few exceptions (not the other way around, with only a few exceptions from the huge-ass maps)
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Roanoke - 07-29-2010
Claustrophobic labyrinth type environments will sway the balance the other way. Instead of hitscan dominance, you'll have dominance of spam weapons and explosive weapons that explode through walls.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Flying Steel - 07-29-2010
(07-29-2010, 05:07 PM)FruitieX Wrote: Wow, my words. I would personally prefer each and every map being like this, with only a few exceptions (not the other way around, with only a few exceptions from the huge-ass maps)
(07-29-2010, 05:09 PM)Roanoke Wrote: Claustrophobic labyrinth type environments will sway the balance the other way. Instead of hitscan dominance, you'll have dominance of spam weapons and explosive weapons that explode through walls.
It's a balance. Some maps more open, some more confined. Some more in between.
But the point is this is something you have to balance with maps, not basic acceleration. The latter cannot be balanced faster without removing all of one weapon type, the former can.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Roanoke - 07-29-2010
But then you also have to take into account vehicles. Vehicles are designed to be used in wide open spaces. They have to be used in wide open spaces, as they are so large.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Flying Steel - 07-29-2010
(07-29-2010, 07:39 PM)Roanoke Wrote: But then you also have to take into account vehicles. Vehicles are designed to be used in wide open spaces. They have to be used in wide open spaces, as they are so large.
Yes, because they are not CHARACTER CLASSES!11!1!1!!
. . .woah, don't know where that came from. My apologies.
Anyways, I am also accounting for vehicles, which is why I said FruitieX should make more labyrinth maps, not that we should get rid of any of the open maps. Both have their place, to serve different crowds.
Twitchy, neurotic, caffeine guzzling ADHD patients can play their coffin-sized maps in faster-than-light kill-anything-that-moves DM. I won't judge them for the head hunting, dungeon dwelling rats that they are; they can't help that they are addicted to shitty gameplay.
Tactically brilliant, artfully skillful, multi-talented, selfless and noble elite warriors can play fearlessly on the open fields of battle of sanely paced CTF under the crystal expanse of the vast and distant HR skyboxes.
There's maps enough for both to coexist in harmony or whatever.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Roanoke - 07-30-2010
Ah, I agree then. The key is making a balance acceptable for both.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Halogene - 07-30-2010
(07-29-2010, 10:25 PM)Flying Steel Wrote: Twitchy, neurotic, caffeine guzzling ADHD patients can play their coffin-sized maps in faster-than-light kill-anything-that-moves DM. I won't judge them for the head hunting, dungeon dwelling rats that they are; they can't help that they are addicted to shitty gameplay.You almost made it into my signature, if only you had used less than 256 characters for that.
Tactically brilliant, artfully skillful, multi-talented, selfless and noble elite warriors can play fearlessly on the open fields of battle of sanely paced CTF under the crystal expanse of the vast and distant HR skyboxes.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 07-30-2010
To be honest, why not try a value of like 350-370?
I don't think the 400 is as bad as I thought, but I'd need to try again...seems people didn't give 320 enough of a try anyway.
Atleast more people have voted in the poll anyway.
Shall we get back on topic also
Always going to be some difference in something being too strong or too weak for people, but I think the weapons have come along very nicely, and think it's getting to a point where some of them need to be left alone now and just make small changes to the others that still need some work on and then start having some proper games with them
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - unknownnf - 07-30-2010
(07-30-2010, 06:50 AM)kojn^ Wrote: Always going to be some difference in something being too strong or too weak for people, but I think the weapons have come along very nicely, and think it's getting to a point where some of them need to be left alone now and just make small changes to the others that still need some work on and then start having some proper games with them
Agreed, the only true way to finally balance this is to play them on both types of maps, and play a lot with them in all game modes. Then we can finally reach a consensus and see which weapon is worthless in what situations and the ones that shine.
As I repeated numerous times balancing a weapon through numbers is not a good idea, some weapons can be used to finish up an opponent after other weapons give the blunt of the blow, a needle after a club, while the maps themselves matter in other cases, one weapon shines above the rest on one map, whereas it's total crap on another also player weapon preference destroys numbers, you get the twich happy nexuiz guys on the game and they will always try to use that weapon, mortar, electro and sometimes rocket launcher whereas they won't even look at other weapons. Games must be played and they should be played on equal skill levels, avoiding 40 - 0 games as much as possible and balance changed after how weapons feel, useful or not in their respectable situations.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Antibody - 07-30-2010
So let's schedule another balance session for this weekend to test out both game types, yes? How's Sunday sound - around 11 PM or midnight GMT?
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - unknownnf - 07-30-2010
(07-30-2010, 08:11 AM)Antibody Wrote: So let's schedule another balance session for this weekend to test out both game types, yes? How's Sunday sound - around 11 PM or midnight GMT?
There are more gametypes than two to test, also it is mostly a good idea tough probably a bit too late for me.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Halogene - 07-30-2010
Yeah, a bit too late for me also. :o/
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Antibody - 07-30-2010
Tell me what time (GMT please) you guys are available and I'll coordinate accordingly. Even if I can't attend I can go about and muster up some troops.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Flying Steel - 07-30-2010
(07-30-2010, 03:42 AM)Halogene Wrote:(07-29-2010, 10:25 PM)Flying Steel Wrote: Twitchy, neurotic, caffeine guzzling ADHD patients can play their coffin-sized maps in faster-than-light kill-anything-that-moves DM. I won't judge them for the head hunting, dungeon dwelling rats that they are; they can't help that they are addicted to shitty gameplay.You almost made it into my signature, if only you had used less than 256 characters for that.
Tactically brilliant, artfully skillful, multi-talented, selfless and noble elite warriors can play fearlessly on the open fields of battle of sanely paced CTF under the crystal expanse of the vast and distant HR skyboxes.
Well if the damn forum wouldn't count adjectives there wouldn't be a problem here.
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - kojn^ - 07-30-2010
I'd wait till the balance is 'finalised' then start getting in some testgame, as many as possible at even skill levels as possible to be honest.
Still no reason why we can't organise another testing weekend like last time, like you suggested antibody till then
RE: balanceFruit.cfg - Antibody - 07-30-2010
Yeah, I propose Sunday evening sometime. Those interested just hop on IRC like always. I'll msg the channel, then PM you individually if you are being stubborn