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Improving current balance (aka FruitieX's balance)

#51
kojn: idea was to have a lg-like function. with a actual lg in game, it just becomes redundant that way (also how i think lg should be btw, shorter rage, more dps). also that high rof has some technical issues (net use, low performance due to flashes etc)
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#52
(02-07-2011, 12:54 PM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: While a weapon shouldn't be generally useless, it should have a situation where it dominates.

AND THEY DON'T ?!?
(02-07-2011, 01:40 PM)nowego4 Wrote: I'm going to expound on Monad's Law now, by saying that "With every post the chances that a thread will turn into a balance thread approach one. Of the balance threads, with every post the chances that the thread will turn into a Electro balance thread approach one."
Peace.

"And as it derails further the chances of the thread getting closed approach one."


And what's the damn point with the electro combo anyway? As waterlaz highlighted it's not useful against someone who isn't playing the game for the first time.
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#53
(02-07-2011, 03:10 PM)FruitieX Wrote: And what's the damn point with the electro combo anyway? As waterlaz highlighted it's not useful against someone who isn't playing the game for the first time.
I don't agree. I think it depends on whether you actually like to use the combo and integrate it into your playing style or if you don't like it and prefer to rely on other weapons. I think there are even for experienced players scenarios where the electro combo can be a useful alternative.

Actually, with nex, rocket launcher and mortar balanced down a bit in Xonotic the Nexuiz electro combo would even become more useful in relation to those three weapons. Arguing that it's not as useful as mortar or rocket launcher should take into consideration that in Xonotic those weapons behave slightly different.
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#54
I'd realy like people wanting an old electro back say smth about what is wrong with electros secondary now? Maybe this can be fixed in a way that would make both sides happy. I just still don't understand what's the main difference between blowing up thise balls with lightning and blowing'em up the old style. Except that now imo it is a bit easier.

And another thing. I had a very pleasant talk with Samual about xonotic balance. As the result I made some more tweaks. Anyone curious about the current status of shell's work can and should go to shirkhan.dyndns.org:26520 to check it out.
Quote:I don't agree. I think it depends on whether you actually like to use the combo and integrate it into your playing style or if you don't like it and prefer to rely on other weapons. I think there are even for experienced players scenarios where the electro combo can be a useful alternative.
Well.. it is usefull. But, imo you realy had a hard time aving only it in your hands. And any weapon should be comfortable for a solo use. IMO electro failed that.
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#55
(02-07-2011, 02:07 PM)waterlaz Wrote:
Quote:*facepalms at the sight of Flying Steel's response*

Quote:*Notices Flying Steel's lack of a valid argument in comparison to the other posts on this thread*

Lee_Stricklin, could you please be a good boy and not a mentruating bitch? When we just start a constructive talk on the balance you keep posting this shit.
As for the electro being a great weapon. I have played nexuiz. I have played it vs experienced players. And what I can say is that electro was never much threat. From what I've seen only inexperienced players can be sucessfully fraged with it. And though it is usefull on some maps and gamemods it seemed to me almost useless in CA, TDM, 1v1.

Anyway, what I don't understand is why the new electro secondary is in any way worse then the old one? You can easily set it off with primary.

That's REAL constructive. Anyway, the problem with the current electro is that setting off combos isn't nearly as doable as once was and it's nowhere near as satisfying. The range limitation created by the lightning beam annoys the hell out of me as well. I think a really constructive idea would be to experiment with turning the machinegun into a lightning gun and restoring the electro. The machinegun's replacement can spit out a beam of burning thermite or something that can be created using the ammo that the machinegun currently uses. Whether or not it's a permanent change, it would be an interesting experiment, since the HLAC already fills most of the MG's role as does the lightning gun in a way. It used to be possible to seriously bomb an area with the old electro and get some really good defensive frags with it.

(02-07-2011, 04:09 PM)waterlaz Wrote: And another thing. I had a very pleasant talk with Samual about xonotic balance. As the result I made some more tweaks. Anyone curious about the current status of shell's work can and should go to shirkhan.dyndns.org:26520 to check it out.

Any chance you can upload the file so I can test locally?
ECKZBAWKZ HUGE LIST OF ACHIEVEMENTS GOES HERE....


Oh wait.
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#56
(02-07-2011, 03:10 PM)FruitieX Wrote: And what's the damn point with the electro combo anyway? As waterlaz highlighted it's not useful against someone who isn't playing the game for the first time.

I disagree. I've been playing Xonotic with Samual on his server with his balance recently, and found that the combo is indeed very effective. In close - mid range situations, firing 3 secondary balls followed up by a primary shot is just as fast as a 2 weapon combo and does quite a bit of damage.

On another note, I really don't see why people are so up in arms about the balance changes. I have quite a bit of experience with Samuals balance and in my opinion, it's close to perfect. It's not finished or anything yet, but it's probably the best balance so far.
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#57
(02-07-2011, 02:57 PM)nowego4 Wrote: I'm probably going to get burnt for saying this, but we could but Bolt on secondary and keep Shaft on primary.

Edit: now that I think about it, this^^ idea isn't so bad because we have the mine layer now.

+1000

This is a very fitting idea in it's own right, but the new mine layer is 'icing on the cake'. The mine layer should become the specialized defensive weapon the electro has tried to be, while the electro can become a unique and generally useful option with shaft and bolt.

It can even have a shock rifle like combo between the two attack types, which would both be effective offensively and still be in the spirit of the gun's original design.
(04-01-2010, 11:21 AM)Roanoke Wrote: Yes, beveled edges are more futuristic. Like BSG and their beveled paper.
But only on one edge.
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#58
Quote:Any chance you can upload the file so I can test locally?
Sure thing...

http://shirkhan.dyndns.org/~xonotic/balanceShell.cfg
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#59
I don't understand what is the big deal, the lg will be on another weapon, why so much complaining? And then the electro can be tweaked to be a better weapon. That's all there is to it, seriously.
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#60
FruitieX Wrote:And what's the damn point with the electro combo anyway? As waterlaz highlighted it's not useful against someone who isn't playing the game for the first time.
? I totally disagree, though the combo is rather weak in default balance. Actually this may be related to the difference in speed of the secondary projectiles - In my balance, they're 900 whilst in default balance they're 700.. Slower projectiles = harder to get to your target when it's moving 800qu/s Tongue Edit, actually -- in general, my balance has a much stronger electro. Comparison seen here:
Code:
//////////////// Xonotic default balance //////////////////
set g_balance_electro_lightning 1
set g_balance_electro_primary_damage 100
set g_balance_electro_primary_edgedamage 0
set g_balance_electro_primary_force 425
set g_balance_electro_primary_force_up 125
set g_balance_electro_primary_radius 850
set g_balance_electro_primary_comboradius 150
set g_balance_electro_primary_speed 0
set g_balance_electro_primary_spread 0
set g_balance_electro_primary_lifetime 0
set g_balance_electro_primary_refire 0.4
set g_balance_electro_primary_animtime 0.2
set g_balance_electro_primary_ammo 5
set g_balance_electro_primary_range 800
set g_balance_electro_primary_falloff_mindist 0
set g_balance_electro_primary_falloff_maxdist 0
set g_balance_electro_primary_falloff_halflifedist 0
set g_balance_electro_secondary_damage 25
set g_balance_electro_secondary_edgedamage 0
set g_balance_electro_secondary_force 100
set g_balance_electro_secondary_radius 100
set g_balance_electro_secondary_speed 700
set g_balance_electro_secondary_speed_up 200
set g_balance_electro_secondary_speed_z 0
set g_balance_electro_secondary_spread 0.08
set g_balance_electro_secondary_lifetime 3.5
set g_balance_electro_secondary_refire 0.2
set g_balance_electro_secondary_refire2 2
set g_balance_electro_secondary_animtime 0.2
set g_balance_electro_secondary_ammo 2
set g_balance_electro_secondary_health 10
set g_balance_electro_secondary_damageforcescale 4
set g_balance_electro_secondary_count 3
set g_balance_electro_secondary_bouncefactor 0.5
set g_balance_electro_secondary_bouncestop 0.075
set g_balance_electro_combo_damage 50
set g_balance_electro_combo_edgedamage 0
set g_balance_electro_combo_force 80
set g_balance_electro_combo_radius 250
set g_balance_electro_combo_comboradius 0
set g_balance_electro_combo_speed 400

//////////////// Samual balance //////////////////
set g_balance_electro_lightning 0
set g_balance_electro_primary_damage 55
set g_balance_electro_primary_edgedamage 27.5
set g_balance_electro_primary_force 200
set g_balance_electro_primary_force_up 0
set g_balance_electro_primary_radius 100
set g_balance_electro_primary_comboradius 150
set g_balance_electro_primary_speed 2500
set g_balance_electro_primary_spread 0
set g_balance_electro_primary_lifetime 30
set g_balance_electro_primary_refire 0.6
set g_balance_electro_primary_animtime 0.1
set g_balance_electro_primary_ammo 4
set g_balance_electro_primary_range 0
set g_balance_electro_primary_falloff_mindist 255 // 0.3 * radius
set g_balance_electro_primary_falloff_maxdist 850
set g_balance_electro_primary_falloff_halflifedist 425
set g_balance_electro_secondary_damage 45
set g_balance_electro_secondary_edgedamage 22.5
set g_balance_electro_secondary_force 200
set g_balance_electro_secondary_radius 150
set g_balance_electro_secondary_speed 900
set g_balance_electro_secondary_speed_up 200
set g_balance_electro_secondary_speed_z 0
set g_balance_electro_secondary_spread 0.05
set g_balance_electro_secondary_lifetime 3
set g_balance_electro_secondary_refire 0.2
set g_balance_electro_secondary_refire2 1.25
set g_balance_electro_secondary_animtime 0.2
set g_balance_electro_secondary_ammo 2
set g_balance_electro_secondary_health 5
set g_balance_electro_secondary_damageforcescale 4
set g_balance_electro_secondary_count 3
set g_balance_electro_secondary_bouncefactor 0.5
set g_balance_electro_secondary_bouncestop 0.075
set g_balance_electro_combo_damage 40
set g_balance_electro_combo_edgedamage 20
set g_balance_electro_combo_force 200
set g_balance_electro_combo_radius 250
set g_balance_electro_combo_comboradius 0
set g_balance_electro_combo_speed 2000

/////////////////////////////////////// Diff from balancexonotic.cfg to balancesamual.cfg
$ diff balanceXonotic.cfg balanceSamual.cfg  | grep "electro"
<default< set g_balance_electro_lightning 1
<default< set g_balance_electro_primary_damage 100
<default< set g_balance_electro_primary_edgedamage 0
<default< set g_balance_electro_primary_force 425
<default< set g_balance_electro_primary_force_up 125
<default< set g_balance_electro_primary_radius 850
>samual> set g_balance_electro_lightning 0
>samual> set g_balance_electro_primary_damage 55
>samual> set g_balance_electro_primary_edgedamage 27.5
>samual> set g_balance_electro_primary_force 200
>samual> set g_balance_electro_primary_force_up 0
>samual> set g_balance_electro_primary_radius 100

<default< set g_balance_electro_primary_speed 0
>samual> set g_balance_electro_primary_speed 2500

<default< set g_balance_electro_primary_lifetime 0
<default< set g_balance_electro_primary_refire 0.4
<default< set g_balance_electro_primary_animtime 0.2
<default< set g_balance_electro_primary_ammo 5
<default< set g_balance_electro_primary_range 800
<default< set g_balance_electro_primary_falloff_mindist 0
<default< set g_balance_electro_primary_falloff_maxdist 0
<default< set g_balance_electro_primary_falloff_halflifedist 0
<default< set g_balance_electro_secondary_damage 25
<default< set g_balance_electro_secondary_edgedamage 0
<default< set g_balance_electro_secondary_force 100
<default< set g_balance_electro_secondary_radius 100
<default< set g_balance_electro_secondary_speed 700
>samual> set g_balance_electro_primary_lifetime 30
>samual> set g_balance_electro_primary_refire 0.6
>samual> set g_balance_electro_primary_animtime 0.1
>samual> set g_balance_electro_primary_ammo 4
>samual> set g_balance_electro_primary_range 0
>samual> set g_balance_electro_primary_falloff_mindist 255 // 0.3 * radius
>samual> set g_balance_electro_primary_falloff_maxdist 850
>samual> set g_balance_electro_primary_falloff_halflifedist 425
>samual> set g_balance_electro_secondary_damage 45
>samual> set g_balance_electro_secondary_edgedamage 22.5
>samual> set g_balance_electro_secondary_force 200
>samual> set g_balance_electro_secondary_radius 150
>samual> set g_balance_electro_secondary_speed 900

<default< set g_balance_electro_secondary_spread 0.08
<default< set g_balance_electro_secondary_lifetime 3.5
>samual> set g_balance_electro_secondary_spread 0.05
>samual> set g_balance_electro_secondary_lifetime 3

<default< set g_balance_electro_secondary_refire2 2
>samual> set g_balance_electro_secondary_refire2 1.25

<default< set g_balance_electro_secondary_health 10
>samual> set g_balance_electro_secondary_health 5

<default< set g_balance_electro_combo_damage 50
<default< set g_balance_electro_combo_edgedamage 0
<default< set g_balance_electro_combo_force 80
>samual> set g_balance_electro_combo_damage 40
>samual> set g_balance_electro_combo_edgedamage 20
>samual> set g_balance_electro_combo_force 200

<default< set g_balance_electro_combo_speed 400
>samual> set g_balance_electro_combo_speed 2000


Everyone please, can we aim for this "And another thing. I had a very pleasant talk with Samual about xonotic balance. As the result I made some more tweaks." instead of pointless arguments? At the core of things we agree on a lot of ideas, the problem is that the forums are literally the single worst medium for discussion about balance (ironically) ever invented... and so it tends to end up in some flame war of useless discussion. People are less likely to actually work together on good ideas when they're frustrated/annoyed Tongue

Although I don't think waterlaz's changes are going far enough in many things, at least he's doing it right and not making the discussion personal.

@nifrek +1

@waterlaz: We need to set you up with git commit access so that you can actually do this in your own branch. That way it'll be far easier to distribute/update/test in general.
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#61
(02-08-2011, 02:02 AM)Samual Wrote: the problem is that the forums are literally the single worst medium for discussion about balance (ironically) ever invented...

So then what medium of communication do you suggest?


(02-08-2011, 01:36 AM)nifrek Wrote: And then the electro can be tweaked to be a better weapon. That's all there is to it, seriously.

The electro cannot be "tweaked" into a better weapon if it's basic design is fundamentally flawed.

It's secondary, with or without combo, is useless as it does not at all match the game's extreme speed and fairly airborne nature nor it's relatively open maps.

The primary lacks unique features and has historically ended up quite underpowered in every balance as a result (except in fruitiex's). Thus, electro primary needs new features or functionality that will both differentiate it from the RL and GL and give it an edge against these and the other weapons.

The weapon is extensively broken and requires extensive changes to fix, small tweaks are insufficient to remedy it's issues.
(04-01-2010, 11:21 AM)Roanoke Wrote: Yes, beveled edges are more futuristic. Like BSG and their beveled paper.
But only on one edge.
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#62
Okay now you're just trolling, not going to bother replying anymore. glhf.
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#63
(02-08-2011, 02:03 AM)Flying Steel Wrote: It's secondary, with or without combo, is useless as it does not at all match the game's extreme speed and fairly airborne nature nor it's relatively open maps.

The primary lacks unique features and has historically ended up quite underpowered in every balance as a result (except in fruitiex's). Thus, electro primary needs new features or functionality that will both differentiate it from the RL and GL and give it an edge against these and the other weapons.

The weapon is extensively broken and requires extensive changes to fix, small tweaks are insufficient to remedy it's issues.

Again, I don't agree at all. Maybe it is useless for YOUR playing style, but it for sure isn't useless in my playing style. Some examples:

CTF: in CTF you have per design a designated place where you can predict an enemy will be trying to move to: the flag. We have several maps that don't allow flag pickups with insane speeds. Electro combo is very useful for such kind of predictable movement.

DM: ever had a couple of players dogfighting in a small to medium-sized room? Electro combo is good for doing against fighting crowds.

1on1: I like to use hit and run tactics whenever I am not fully stacked up with health and armor. In many cases I land some valuable hits to decrease a fully stacked opponent by just rushing by and running away again. Electro combo is very useful at keeping a stronger or "healthier" opponent from following you.

In general it is a good combo for doing against several people or people following you or both. I agree that neither the primary nor the secondary fire mode of the electro are particularly useful by itself (both Nexuiz and Xonotic version), but I think that's only reasonable given the strong combo.

Now of course the electro combo can be set off with the lightning ray as well, and I can live with that provided it stays useful (i.e. reasonable powerful). I myself don't really know why I still like the feeling of the Nexuiz electro combo better. Maybe it's because I tend to switch weapons very fast so I am used to having another weapon already at hand when the electro combo goes off. Or that I have already turned away in case of pursuit. Then again this results in a delay between firing and combo set-off.

I think in the end my preference of the old electro combo results rather from being used to it than from gameplay aspects. That's why I always say "I can live with the new electro behavior".

Another thought: Maybe it's also just an emotional thing: the old combo was so satisfying partly just because of the fffsh WOOSH sound it made. Nowadays the already quite impressive beam sound overlays the combo explosion, making it less bombastic. Ever thought of that? That way the electro combo "feels" not so powerful, even if it would be equally powerful to Nexuiz electro.
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#64
Another thought: Maybe it's also just an emotional thing: the old combo was so satisfying partly just because of the fffsh WOOSH sound it made. Nowadays the already quite impressive beam sound overlays the combo explosion, making it less bombastic. Ever thought of that? That way the electro combo "feels" not so powerful, even if it would be equally powerful to Nexuiz electro.

wow halogene , very good point!

im gunna agree with that , sound can do that stuff all the time.


:^
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#65
@ Flying Steel

You best be trolling. If you really aren't trolling then clearly you need to learn how to use the electro. The electro is actually one of my most effective weapons in all the older balances, so much so it's been nerfed slightly in my balance.
ECKZBAWKZ HUGE LIST OF ACHIEVEMENTS GOES HERE....


Oh wait.
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#66
Why are the trolls personally attacking me as a "troll" just after I make a set of non-emotion, reasonably logical arguments to back up my opinion? Oh right, because they're trolls, I forgot.

(02-08-2011, 03:44 AM)Halogene Wrote: CTF: in CTF you have per design a designated place where you can predict an enemy will be trying to move to: the flag.

But because of good map design, there are usually more than one avenue to the flag and at least one is usually quite wide. Also with the laser probably back in the discussion at least as far as vertical jump force, we have that all too familiar flag jumping, which is even less predictable and very evasive versus floor based attacks.

So in practice, that mainly leaves the flag itself as the only real choke point for the electro combo that is truly predictable. Essentially the electro is your goalie. But don't you think that such a specialized task could be handled by the new mine layer or a rebalanced version thereof?

Quote:ever had a couple of players dogfighting in a small to medium-sized room? Electro combo is good for doing against fighting crowds.

I find this only happens in DM games that are at least 2x overcrowded for the maps they are played on and the players are new and don't understand yet what the 'glowing blue marbles' collecting on the floor mean for them. Wink

Quote:Electro combo is very useful at keeping a stronger or "healthier" opponent from following you.

But even at this, the RL, Nex and sometimes mortar have always done quite a faster and more flexible job at this.

And experienced players tend to follow you indirectly, usually from above whenever possible.

Quote:I think in the end my preference of the old electro combo results rather from being used to it than from gameplay aspects. That's why I always say "I can live with the new electro behavior".

I am perhaps equally indifferent to the actual functionality. My main concern is that a common weapon have common applications. The electro is the former without being the latter, and that is essentially the problem I have with it.
(04-01-2010, 11:21 AM)Roanoke Wrote: Yes, beveled edges are more futuristic. Like BSG and their beveled paper.
But only on one edge.
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#67
Quote:You best be trolling. If you really aren't trolling then clearly you need to learn how to use the electro. The electro is actually one of my most effective weapons in all the older balances, so much so it's been nerfed slightly in my balance.
Would you please cut it out? Face the fact that some people have an opinion different from yours
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#68
This thread is about maintaining FruitieX's balance, or what's left of it, not about whether or not the Bolt is useful or not/more useful than Shaft.

waterlaz and (Edit: Shell clan) and the others maintaining the balance can decide what they want in their balance. Lee, you chose to put the Bolt in your balance. That's fine. Let these people have their own opinion on when what weapon is useful.

Ideas are welcome, but saying that "this one is better than that one and if you say it's not then you just don't know how to use it" is unproductive. I refuse to try to change anyone else's mind about which one is more effective, I just contribute ideas and if people like it then they will change their own mind.

I'll be taking a look at balanceShell later, maybe I can fiddle with the health settings some Smile
nowego [MLP:FiM]
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#69
I don't maintain it - shell clan does.
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#70
Sorry, my fail. Blush Fixed.
nowego [MLP:FiM]
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#71
You know, there was none of this 'debating' going on the forum for about 2weeks..then things are to get changed again quite majorly and everyone comes out of the cave, I actually preferred it when no one was 'debating' all this stuff that's going on now, now let's think..why was there no thread's like this for a while...
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#72
(02-08-2011, 06:01 PM)kojn^ Wrote: You know, there was none of this 'debating' going on the forum for about 2weeks..then things are to get changed again quite majorly and everyone comes out of the cave, I actually preferred it when no one was 'debating' all this stuff that's going on now, now let's think..why was there no thread's like this for a while...
Because everyone who doesn't like the balance just left totally Tongue Hence why 99% of Nexuiz NA community is MIA. Oh and other people decided they would use my balance anyway, so that solved discussions too.

That's why it started back up again, because it clearly has not worked very well so far and it needs to be re-examined.


But actually: HAS BALANCE DISCUSSION _EVER_ REALLY STOPPED ON THIS FORUM? I think since day 1 there has been a balance thread.
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#73
Basically I think what happened is that a specific group of people participated into testing/tweaking fruitiex's balance and got used to it since they've been playing a lot of pickups with it (which I only recently joined, it's a lot of fun). Since nobody else really joined to say they didn't like it, it seemed like it was going well.

It's quite understandable that people are frustrated. It looks like most people that didn't like the balance simply decided to give up on Xonotic and gone back to Nexuiz without giving any sort of feedback, which sucks, and only those that were testing/tweaking are still around. So the good people on #xonotic.pickup pretty much became a community by itself and they probably felt like they were appointed "in charge" of balance. Now you're taking away what they took for granted and they obviously had no way to see coming.

This kind of situation is nothing new and will probably keep happening over and over, that's why personally I prefer to remain neutral, especially since Xonotic is still very early in development, you can't get too attached to settings since anything and everything can still change at any moment no matter how you got used to it. You have to be very open.

So I'll play whatever balance is currently being worked on and give feedback on it when I think it can help in the "big picture" rather than hope they change things to how I would like them to be (definitely not easy to stop oneself to do that). In the end, if Xonotic deviates too much from a game I might enjoy, well then there are other games I can play. You can't please everyone and you can't force your ideas on people, it's a waste of time and energy. It's not worth getting frustrated for this in my opinion.

I hope I didn't offend anyone, I'm really just making observations from what I'm seeing here.
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#74
(02-09-2011, 02:05 PM)nifrek Wrote: I hope I didn't offend anyone, I'm really just making observations from what I'm seeing here.

No, you make some good points (I was not aware of the pickup community) and I think you're making the same point I am.

You can't force your opinion on someone else, and since everybody has different opinions, you obviously can't please everybody. Sometimes you have to agree to disagree.

Actually I'm pretty neutral (or at least I think I am) too. So far, all Samual's planned changes haven't really changed my view of the game. I think the only thing (mainly) stirring up this wasp's nest is the Electro, and once we get the Bolt and Shaft both back in default, I bet it will die pretty quick.

And actually I'm thinking of creating a Electro Spam thread so that people can vent there until we get it straightened out, maybe it will keep some of the spam out of these other threads Tongue
nowego [MLP:FiM]
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#75
(02-09-2011, 02:05 PM)nifrek Wrote: I hope I didn't offend anyone, I'm really just making observations from what I'm seeing here.

You actually made some very valid points I guess.
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