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Fast physics

#26
I think there's basically three types of players out there:

1. Players that play for the frags and don't really care about movement except on how it changes their weapons/tactics. (I'm going to lump in Rage_ATWM here)

2. Players that play for the movement and don't really care about weapons except on how it changes their movement. (I'm going to lump in Akari here, also I know people like Grunt play a lot of race)

3. Players who don't really care and just play casually and want a smooth playing style all round that doesn't take a manual or seven years to master. (I go in this category Big Grin)

It was possible to obtain these speeds easily in Nexuiz, you just had to use the Laser to do it (<–– quick note here, this is kind of a foreign thing to a newb. In most games you're not supposed shoot yourself in the foot Smile). Xonotic is different in that they have made the Laser more effective in vertical force than in horizontal force, and now speed is gained horizontally by bunnyjumping.

One of my problems with Nexuiz was it was "Hard to play, Harder to master". Xonotic is "Easy to play, Hard to master" which is IMHO the way it should be. And I'm not saying that the physics are perfect either. And please don't throw firebrands and arrows at me, I don't intend to argue or convince anyone, this is just what it looks like from a casual player's position.

Lee_Stricklin Wrote:...the current movement has deterred ALMOST THE ENTIRE NORTH AMERICAN NEXUIZ COMMUNITY...
I hope you didn't include me in that, because I'm NA and I'm here Wink
nowego [MLP:FiM]
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#27
In Nexuiz, it took a little bit of time to gain speed though unless you used weapons. In Xonotic, you can leap ten feet ahead from a stand still just by hitting the jump key. Nexuiz was also very aerial while Xonotic has more of a ground combat focus plus Warsow's speed maintenance, I thought it would be interesting to mix the two and set the run speed to a point where it could actually be useful to the player and allow the jump key to act as a dodge if they're running and not bunny hopping. Doesn't feel too alien if you've played balanceFruit or Nexuiz and the noobs (I have a few friends that never heard of Nexuiz or Xonotic before) I had try it out said it was rather easy to get the hang of. Why can't we try mixing different ideas and try striking a balance between casual and hardcore?
ECKZBAWKZ HUGE LIST OF ACHIEVEMENTS GOES HERE....


Oh wait.
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#28
Oh btw for the record, the physics that I had at first were slower than the current set (320 walk speed vs 360 walk speed). Almost everyone complained that they were too slow, however. Had to compromise between 320 and the 400 that Nexuiz had.
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#29
Hardcore! I want hardcore! That sounds wrong but that's the way I like it.

I'm kidding, I like the idea of 'easy to play, hard to master' reminds me of Street Fighter.
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#30
(03-02-2011, 08:32 AM)FruitieX Wrote: Oh btw for the record, the physics that I had at first were slower than the current set (320 walk speed vs 360 walk speed). Almost everyone complained that they were too slow, however. Had to compromise between 320 and the 400 that Nexuiz had.

The bunnyhopping, not the walk speed, is what made the physics so ridiculous. Nexuiz never had such a ridiculous speed transition when you started bunnyhopping, it was more gradual. In my opinion the run speed should be made close, if not a little bit faster, than what it was in 2.5.
ECKZBAWKZ HUGE LIST OF ACHIEVEMENTS GOES HERE....


Oh wait.
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#31
The walk speed is what helps make the speed of which you gain acceleration into bunnyhopping Lee.
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#32
Well, I am guilty of whining back when it was 320. 320 works for smaller player scale like in quake, but nexuiz/xonotic player is taller so that speed makes it feel very very slow on the ground IMO. 360 is a good compromise I thought.
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#33
(03-01-2011, 08:39 PM)theShadow Wrote: I love how everyone assumes that when we talk about game speed, we want to "make it really really slow".

you are thinking in extremes. stop it.
+1
Please read carefully this theShadow's post.

Again, changing the whole physics principle is out of the scope. But (almost) nobody intends that. We are talking about lowering a bit average speeds.

And please please please, before wondering if it's best 360 or 357.36, the really first question to answer is: "are there any players who do think that the game is too fast?".
Also, are there any player who think "ok, that's right that xonotic speeds are a bit high, but I think I could deal with it" ?

If so, please make yourself known!
If not, the topic is close.
Fat.bot.Slim
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#34
(03-02-2011, 04:04 PM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: The bunnyhopping, not the walk speed, is what made the physics so ridiculous. Nexuiz never had such a ridiculous speed transition when you started bunnyhopping, it was more gradual. In my opinion the run speed should be made close, if not a little bit faster, than what it was in 2.5.

This is exactly what makes everything so easily dodgeable... If you're bunnyhopping around fast you're easy to predict, but if you're dodging around like mad on the ground you're hard to predict, even more so if the ground speed is very high.
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#35
Too much predictability = balance killer (precision weapons become over-powered and irritating to use if nerfed)
Too little predictability = balance killer (precision weapons become under-powered or create serious wtf moments if the damage is cranked up)
Somewhere in the middle = ????, hopefully a well-balanced game (all weapons have a time and a place where they're most suited and nothing is over-powered)

Under my config you can use jumping to dodge if your just running around, though if you need to haul ass across a map bunnyhopping is what you'll need to do. Running is reserved for fighting under my config and when you use jump-dodging with it, you can get some interesting movements in a firefight. Maybe this idea can be brought into a slightly less ridiculous balance/physics set than the ones I've made.
ECKZBAWKZ HUGE LIST OF ACHIEVEMENTS GOES HERE....


Oh wait.
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#36
I think the bunny hopping acceleration is a bit too fast for the size of the levels in Xonotic.

(03-02-2011, 05:18 PM)Rage_ATWM Wrote:
(03-01-2011, 08:39 PM)theShadow Wrote: I love how everyone assumes that when we talk about game speed, we want to "make it really really slow".

you are thinking in extremes. stop it.
+1
Please read carefully this theShadow's post.

Again, changing the whole physics principle is out of the scope. But (almost) nobody intends that. We are talking about lowering a bit average speeds.

And please please please, before wondering if it's best 360 or 357.36, the really first question to answer is: "are there any players who do think that the game is too fast?".
Also, are there any player who think "ok, that's right that xonotic speeds are a bit high, but I think I could deal with it" ?

If so, please make yourself known!
If not, the topic is close.
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#37
(03-03-2011, 02:08 AM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: Under my config you can...

I stopped reading from here Big Grin

Rage ATWM, that's fine, but it's not as easy as it may seem, i'd suggest you have a go at messing about with the variables or talk to someone who knows what they do and try and find something you like to test.
[Image: 542.png]

#deathmatchers @ irc.quakenet.org

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#38
I love running around really fast (I get killed a lot but it's fun Big Grin). Especially on Maze where you can get to well over 1700 qu/s - fast enough to outrun TAG missiles Smile
[Image: 370.png] AKA [~] John Smith on Nexuiz
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#39
Alright since this seems to be getting a lot of attention and since FruitieX + some other people mentioned it on my server I think i'll say my thoughts on this..

Personally I think the physics are basically almost perfect as they are right now -- but i've ALWAYS loved faster++ physics so maybe i'm biased. If this really is an issue for other people, maybe I can suggest something:

Instead of focusing on walking speed, focus on air acceleration. That seems to be the REAL problem, not the problem of your speed when you're on the ground. If anything, I would suggest lowering the maximum air speed and maybe also the air acceleration.

If someone wants to give it a worthy shot just explain your changes and i'll set it up on my server for testing maybe, but I can't do these changes myself as i'm too busy with other things.
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#40
Youre correct, Samual. What I mentioned sometimes when playing on a server, was to lower the air movement and speed. (not to be able to make very big changes in all directions when being in mid-air)
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#41
Try these (as a modification to the defaults):

Code:
sv_maxspeed 300
sv_maxairspeed 300
sv_airaccel_qw -0.9
sv_airspeedlimit_nonqw 650
sv_airstrafeaccel_qw -0.975

Would make the game more focused on weapon tricks and aiming instead of determining who's the best at dodging around. Smile

inb4 OMG SLOW. This is still faster than most games, and you can still reach and maintain crazy speeds with weapon tricks.

Maybe it's time to rethink how fast we actually want Xonotic to be. More player speed seems to mean that there will be less teamplay going on since your chances of quickly just snatching the flag for instance will be much higher. Discuss.
Links to my: SoundCloud and bandcamp accounts
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#42
fast , must be fast.

this is why there is a great following for the old game.

yes xonotic is a new game , but it still has roots to the old , regardless of what anyone thinks.

oh yer...

ROCKET FLYING FTW!

wooooooooooooooooooo!


t

:^
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#43
(03-04-2011, 06:14 AM)FruitieX Wrote: Try these (as a modification to the defaults):

Code:
sv_maxspeed 300
sv_maxairspeed 300
sv_airaccel_qw -0.9
sv_airspeedlimit_nonqw 650
sv_airstrafeaccel_qw -0.975

Would make the game more focused on weapon tricks and aiming instead of determining who's the best at dodging around. Smile

inb4 OMG SLOW. This is still faster than most games, and you can still reach and maintain crazy speeds with weapon tricks.

Maybe it's time to rethink how fast we actually want Xonotic to be. More player speed seems to mean that there will be less teamplay going on since your chances of quickly just snatching the flag for instance will be much higher. Discuss.

I do agree with this, like I said i'm willing to try any changes as long as it doesn't completely make the movement horrendously bad e.g lowering values like you have done is fine, but not actually changing the whole movement functionality as it's good already.
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#deathmatchers @ irc.quakenet.org

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#44
i also agree. lowering air acceleration might just do the trick.
Master of mysterious geometries

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#45
I wonder what the people said about the physics in the survery! Tongue

(Why) do we always have to change things that actually work quite well anyway?
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#46
Obviously, I'm glad that some attention is paid on this topic.
I also tend to be agree with FruitieX's approach.

Still...
Up to now, I see roughly 3 people here who explicitly expressed that they have a problem with the current physics speed.
So nothing representative of the community.
However, some setting changes are already being proposed.

My concern is just not to make some extra work for nothing.
I just wonder: what will we answer to the guy, let's call him Rage against the dishwasher, who will say in 3 months: hey community, give me good reason to not make physics faster ??
Fat.bot.Slim
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#47
(03-04-2011, 12:28 PM)Rage_ATWM Wrote: Still...
Up to now, I see roughly 3 people here who explicitly expressed that they have a problem with the current physics speed.
So nothing representative of the community.
However, some setting changes are already being proposed.

A lot of people tested Xonotic and lots of em stopped playing Xonotic, so why should they reply on this topic if they play another game?
people who are writing on this forum or playing Xonotic atm are fine with the game, thats why they re playing it. (example is mirio)
U cant expect a lot of people who are upset with the physic, because they re not here.
i mean its pointless to discuss those things because of ur next sentences.

(03-04-2011, 12:28 PM)Rage_ATWM Wrote: My concern is just not to make some extra work for nothing.
I just wonder: what will we answer to the guy, let's call him Rage against the dishwasher, who will say in 3 months: hey community, give me good reason to not make physics faster ??

thats ur answer.
there is no solution.
most of the people who will join in the next few months are from nexuiz.
and people from nexuiz tend to play nexuiz because it feels more comfortable.
weve seen it in a lot of new versions in nexuiz. it was always annoying for most of the player cause they couldnt deal with new balances. but there was no other game , they had to live with the changes.
the same with xonotic right now. for some people it looks like a new version of nexuiz, but hey the nexuiz game is still there, why should they leave ?

Xonotic is much better than nexuiz in a lot of ways, but the normal nexuiz player is maybe to lazy to play new balances on xonotic.
i wish they would change to xonotic but i cant see that happen soon.
so in the end we have to wait if Xonotic develops sth special or if its all about balance and physic changes.
if u dont want the old balances from nexuiz u have to move on and work on sth special, otherwise there is no progress.

and sth personal rage: i like ur postings because its always serious and neutral (correct word?) who cares, luv u
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#48
(03-04-2011, 04:10 PM)CrrazzyRulezz Wrote: U cant expect a lot of people who are upset with the physic, because they re not here.

They can't expect us to listen to them either, then. Sad

Plus people here would supposedly not want to change the physics if they were alright... :p
(03-04-2011, 04:10 PM)CrrazzyRulezz Wrote:
(03-04-2011, 12:28 PM)Rage_ATWM Wrote: My concern is just not to make some extra work for nothing.
I just wonder: what will we answer to the guy, let's call him Rage against the dishwasher, who will say in 3 months: hey community, give me good reason to not make physics faster ??

thats ur answer.
there is no solution.

As has been proven by all the balance/physics discussions on here for several months now. :-P

There is no answer, it's all just personal opinions.

We could make this as slow as a realistic shooter and still make a good game, perhaps it would be even better (attract lots of attention etc). Or we could make it very fast and still be successful. There's always someone who will hate it.
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#49
(03-05-2011, 05:05 AM)FruitieX Wrote: There is no answer, it's all just personal opinions.
Man...
No offense, but you and many others probably did not realize how naive is this statement!!!!
Of course, all is matter of personal tastes. Of course there will be always haters. All this is trivial.
BUT the main challenge is elsewhere: how to make this hater fraction as small as possible??
It's the only way to make something acceptable.

Xonotic community never gave itself the way to minimize this hater fraction.
This requires democratic methods, efforts, rigor, diplomacy, ability to listen, transparency, neutrality and not taking any big decisions among 3 people on the dev irc channel between 2 and 3 a.m.
And all this is not related to how best tune cvar variables...

The difficulties Xonotic project are facing of are known in every engineering company in the world.

I tried to warn several months ago.

And we are off topic.
Fat.bot.Slim
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#50
(03-05-2011, 05:05 AM)FruitieX Wrote: They can't expect us to listen to them either, then. Sad

Plus people here would supposedly not want to change the physics if they were alright... :p

srry my fault.
what i wanted to say is, that people were criticising the balance and the physic since the beginning of Xonotic or maybe 1-2 months later and the developers told them/us (whatever) the balance is fine.
So hey your right , u didnt listen to them earlier, why should u in the future? ( i know u tried to do everything right, so no offence against u and all the other developers)
thats what a lot of people thought at that stage and they left the building,stopped reading and discussing those things because they had another game.

seriously i understand ur procedure.
it should have worked if all people from Nexuiz couldnt play Nexuiz anymore, but they had the Opportunity to play the same old game like before and thats why less people changed over than expected.

(03-05-2011, 05:05 AM)FruitieX Wrote: As has been proven by all the balance/physics discussions on here for several months now. :-P

There is no answer, it's all just personal opinions.

We could make this as slow as a realistic shooter and still make a good game, perhaps it would be even better (attract lots of attention etc). Or we could make it very fast and still be successful. There's always someone who will hate it.

Yes of course its proven, but really... this balance changes came far too late. Do u think all these guys who left the game are up to date of all changes you did lately? People who are talking about changes at the moment are your own active people from Xonotic who are missing something: more players.

and maybe ur right with a realistic shooter, but think about Xonotic´s Background - "Nexuiz" and think about ur main clientele - "Nexuiz".
how do u get these people to Xonotic?
And if u dont want em u have to do more advertising, maybe for Xonotic 1.0 for new players.
But since then u have to wait for more players in my opinion.

"how to make this hater fraction as small as possible??"
good question rage

"And we are off topic."
I think its not offtopic. Xonotic need players and thats what it is all about.
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