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Fixing spammy weapon combos

#1
There was a little off-topic discussion about spammy weapon combos in the "Replacing spawn weapons" thread by Samual, so I created a new thread where this discussion can be continued without derailing another thread further.

What has been said so far about this issue:
(05-19-2012, 06:28 PM)kojn^ Wrote: Not a fan of the fast weapon-switching at all purely because it's too fast and making everything too spammy, fast weapon switching is fine when not firing ofcourse.


(05-19-2012, 06:59 PM)FruitieX Wrote: I completely agree with this.

Xonotic is a bit on the spammy side still with the very fast weapon combos. In my opinion, there should be a longer delay after firing a weapon until you can switch to another one (not so much that weapon combos become entirely useless, just enough to remove the constant fire / switch / fire / switch / fire / switch spam you often see). Note that I also don't want to put in a delay between merely switching weapons! Only a slight one that activates after firing your weapon and then immediately trying to switch away to another one.

Maybe this wouldn't be as bad combined with the idea I had in my previous post [this post was about adding a dedicated laserjump button that doubles as melee functionality], because you would then still be able to laserjump (and melee) as fast as (if not even faster than) before, after firing a weapon.

The ability to spam weapon combos has always been something that annoyed me about Nexuiz and Xonotic, if you want to streamline the gameplay I think it's also important that you focus on this issue. Hopefully me and kojn aren't the only ones thinking like this. Smile


(05-19-2012, 07:20 PM)W4RP1G Wrote: I like weapon combos, but I'd be ok with them being toned down just a bit if that's possible, I just don't want to lose them. After playing Xonotic and getting used to weapon combos, I feel restricted in games like Warsow and QL because there is such a delay when switching.

From what I gather, you guys would like to reduce spam while keeping the weapon combos. Idk if that's really possible though, the mortar is a pretty spammy weapon even without combos.

This is how I see it. Really close quarter battles are curently extremely fast paced because of the weapon switching. The Arc Cannon might change things so that close quarter battles immediately go to the LG(like in QL) rather than weapon combos. So, is weapon combo spam at a distance really an issue? The Nex seems to decide how medium-long range battles will go more than anything, so would reducing mortar and rocket spam do anything but make the Nex even more useful?

Oddly, this discussion is calling weapon combos too spammy, but they don't even compare to the amount of spam you see from the crylink, hagar, and electro.


(05-19-2012, 08:14 PM)kojn^ Wrote:
(05-19-2012, 07:20 PM)W4RP1G Wrote: Oddly, this discussion is calling weapon combos too spammy, but they don't even compare to the amount of spam you see from the crylink, hagar, and electro.

Yes, those weapons are classed as spam weapons. But when you combine them in quick succession, it becomes a big(ger) mess, that's part of the issue FruitieX is explaining, he is not saying weapons are too spammy individually (because in Xonotic there really not any worse then any other FPS i've played at all, and most FPS have a 'spam' weapon/s).

And if you think about it, if weapon combos were slower slightly, the nex would not be as strong, because you would not be able to go back and forth so quick, as it is the most used weapon in these 'combos'.

And whilst the LG would not be used in combo's it still suffers the same problem as the MG. Damage output potential is higher with combo's then it is with using the mg for example, way higher, unless you have a incredible aim and movement with it (I actually do have a very good aim with it and movement at times, but I'm one of the few exceptions and even I struggle with it vs combos).

Last time I played L0, he was commenting the same problem I see, can't do enough damage enough of the time because damage output via combo's is quicker & higher then you can output with a weapon such as the MG..and the MG is not weak, it's DPS is in comparison with the other weapons when used well, so this clearly is not an issue with weapon damage.

UT2003 had fast weapon switching but it did not have fast weapon switching style like Xonotic when you can switch so quickly after each shot fired, and so whilst fast weapon switching was there, it didn't have anywhere near the same issues that Xonotic does in this area.

Hope that clears your Question up. FruitieX is simply suggesting that gameplay would be improved if they are slowed down somewhat when firing.

If anything, it would help people appreciate the other more under-used weapons more this way, atleast they get a chance to compete. A Toned down DPS via combos will mean the weapon set turns into a more balanced set.

btw, just wanted to post that mainly to you W4RPIG, this can (and should) be bought to attention a little down the line, but everyone should concentrate now on Samual's first post suggestions.


(05-20-2012, 05:35 AM)FruitieX Wrote:
(05-19-2012, 07:20 PM)W4RP1G Wrote: I feel restricted in games like Warsow and QL because there is such a delay when switching.
Yeah, we don't want to take it that far I think...

(05-19-2012, 07:20 PM)W4RP1G Wrote: This is how I see it. Really close quarter battles are curently extremely fast paced because of the weapon switching.
Battles can be fast paced without weapon switching too! I think ideally you should need to focus a bit more on usage of the weapon you are currently holding, rather than spamming everything you have and switching through your weapons like a lunatic. Smile

(05-19-2012, 07:20 PM)W4RP1G Wrote: So, is weapon combo spam at a distance really an issue?
I think the issue is mostly in close range battles.

(05-19-2012, 07:20 PM)W4RP1G Wrote: Oddly, this discussion is calling weapon combos too spammy, but they don't even compare to the amount of spam you see from the crylink, hagar, and electro.
The problem is not that a particular weapon can fire several (relatively) weak shots quickly, but rather that you can for example repeatedly switch between two very powerful weapons such as the RL/Nex and avoid their refire delays. If anything, combos like these leave the weak and "spammy" weapons underpowered. I hope Samual will also consider the usefulness of weapon combos when balancing the weapons: you shouldn't gain a *huge* advantage by switching between two particular weapons over using the right weapon in a particular situation.

Sure, stuff like pushing someone into the air using mortar, then nexing him is still fine IMO. But endless spam switching between RL / nex / mortar needs to stop, it will still sure rack up a lot more DPS (damage per second) than if you just concentrate on one of these weapons. It just shouldn't be mandatory to spam switch in order to remain competitive!

Edit: I'll make another thread for this discussion, linking it here in a minute...

And here we are. Discuss. Smile
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#2
As far as I understand, entire idea of combos comes from that:

1)Nex has very long reload time
2)While it reloads, you can switch to something else, that sth else typically being mortar or rl.

Theoretically you could combo with other weapons, but their refire times are much shorter, so it brings relatively little vs combos with nex.

In other words, nex seems to be central weapon of combos, and any changes IMO should be directed at it specifically. My ideas. Either:

1)Increase switching time for nex only.

or:

2)Fiddle with charging action so that first shot after drawing nex is less damaging than next ones, unless you wait to charge. If it had to affect subsequent shots too, nex would be rather underpowered overall. My idea would be 45 or 50 for first hit, normally charging to 90, if you wait, and leave next shots as they are now.
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#3
Ok, it's obvious weapon combos are more effective than using the regular spammy weapons, to an extent. Electro shock combos are very situational, and extremely effective for traps. The crylink is effective in CTF due to the pull function which can slow down a flag carrier or someone else on the move. The hagar, imo, feels useless, even with the very powerful alt fire. But, the noobs seem to love it. The LG will be the close-medium range hitscan weapon and finisher, assuming it's done right.

My point? Nex/mortar/rl combos are more aggressive than the electro or crylink, but the electro and crylink fill other roles. The crylink alt-fire is also pretty broken as it is, so it could be made a better gun. The Hagar should die(I hate that gun).

I don't think 3 guns should be nerfed so they can all be used together to be as powerful as 1 of the other guns. Combos are there to increase the skill ceiling. If you make comboing weak, you may as well just stick to the electro and crylink because why bother learning a difficult technique?

Anyway, I'm ok with combos being slowed down a little.


(05-20-2012, 05:57 AM)rafallus Wrote: 2)Fiddle with charging action so that first shot after drawing nex is less damaging than next ones, unless you wait to charge. If it had to affect subsequent shots too, nex would be rather underpowered overall. My idea would be 45 or 50 for first hit, normally charging to 90, if you wait, and leave next shots as they are now.

The nex uncharged shot does 60 already. Do you think dropping 10-15 dmg will really help? I'm ok with being dropped a little more, but honestly, the 60 dmg combo nex is alreaddy so weak compared to the fully charged nex.
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#4
I don't really mind excessive weapon combos all that much, even though I hardly use them myself. For balancing purposes I'd rater see other weapons be tweaked to make it possible to combo with instead of toning combo's down. (For example, make the burst fire for the mg last longer for higher damage total and give it longer downtime. That would make it comboable, and vary enough from the nex to use in various situations.)
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#5
There already was a week-long discussion of this, starting here:
http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php...599&page=2
which then went here http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=2614

And according to this http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php...7#pid35727 it already got fixed in the balance.
So why new thread and similar discussion all over again?
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#6
(05-20-2012, 06:08 AM)_Subzero_ Wrote: There already was a week-long discussion of this, starting here:
http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php...599&page=2
which then went here http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=2614
These all seem off-topic as well, so here's an on-topic thread for discussing this specific issue!

(05-20-2012, 06:08 AM)_Subzero_ Wrote: And according to this http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php...7#pid35727 it already got fixed in the balance.
So why new thread and similar discussion all over again?
This is news to me.

I hope they tweaked the delay after firing a weapon, not the duration of the animation you see when actually switching weapons.
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#7
When it comes to weapon delay I am elated with XPM physics and it doesn't require further changes. If something has to be changed - let it be shotgun and crylink that are slightly overpowered in my honest opinion.
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#8
(05-20-2012, 06:33 AM)FruitieX Wrote: So here's an on-topic thread for discussing this specific issue!

But it already was thoroughly discussed not long ago Smile

(05-20-2012, 06:33 AM)FruitieX Wrote:
(05-20-2012, 06:08 AM)_Subzero_ Wrote: And according to this http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php...7#pid35727 it already got fixed in the balance.
So why new thread and similar discussion all over again?
This is news to me.

I hope they tweaked the delay after firing a weapon, not the duration of the animation you see when actually switching weapons.

Note that it was dane precisely to tweak combo balance.
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#9
(05-20-2012, 06:49 AM)_Subzero_ Wrote: Note that it was dane precisely to tweak combo balance.

Then that is awesome! I'm sorry for lifting this non-issue up then, I've been very inactive in the Xonotic community as of lately (due to uni). :-)

I assumed that nothing had been done about this, and I still find it hard to believe something has been done about it. Awesome! Big Grin I will test this out when I have time. (in about 2 weeks from now)
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#10
Quote:Xonotic is a bit on the spammy side still with the very fast weapon combos.
Are you still on 0.1/0.5? With the increased weapon switch delay in 0.6 this already has been fixed. Pulling out the wrong weapon during a fight can result in a huge disadvantage in close games. Still, with good timing strong combos are possible. I really triple checked if this isn't an old thread from pre-0.6 days lol.

Talking about spammy weapons in general: Lots of projectile, splash-damage based weapons = spammy gameplay. Could be "fixed" by replacing spam weapons (e.g. the crylink) by aim weapons (e.g. the lg) but I'm not sure if people really want that.
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#11
Is still to fast to be honest.
[Image: 542.png]

#deathmatchers @ irc.quakenet.org

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#12
Concerning Nex combos, I think this was why the charge was implemented, and I think it serves its purpose there.

Combos are also a way of rewarding having more weapons (in duels, this means item control). If weapons were made to be used individually, then the only one you'd have to worry about is the 'best' one.

Combos raise the skill ceiling and add a level of complexity (knowing which combos [or individual weapons, should the case arise {read: electro trap}] work best in what situations is an art in itself).

Summation: I like them. Just my preference.

IF the switch time was increased, I'd say the 90 flat damage Nex would need to be re-introduced to maintain the balance.

Peace.
nowego [MLP:FiM]
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#13
OH MY FUCKING GOD WHAT HAVE I DONE


I'm not even going to read this thread, I don't have time for it.
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#14
(05-20-2012, 11:03 AM)Samual Wrote: OH MY FUCKING GOD WHAT HAVE I DONE


I'm not even going to read this thread, I don't have time for it.

I have no idea, but I hope you have fixed something in the past.

:-)
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#15
this also:
http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=2616
Fat.bot.Slim
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#16
(05-20-2012, 05:12 PM)Rage_ATWM Wrote: this also:
http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=2616

LOL at the video, I hope the settings were changed since? Otherwise we still have work to do...
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