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Why do people only seem to play minsta+hook or CTS?

#51
[undefined=undefined] the fast weapon switching is so we can do COMBOS .... with is ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MAKES XONOTIC UNIQUE[/undefined]

You don't have combos, you have fast weapon switching. One of the reasons that Quake Live has NOT used fast weapon switching from CPMA is Quake Logic (yes, Quake was very smartly designed):

In Quake, to make weapon switch you need to wait for weapon cooldown. It's not the same as waiting for animation to finish ofc. Therefore game requires DECISIONS from player instead of mindless tekken-alike-keyboard combos. That's whole big chunk of gameplay mechanics to explore and learn. And skill by itself.

You guys throw away all of this when you implemented fast weapon switching Smile Even Unreal was slower than Xonotic.

Combos would be awesome, if you would designed them like different weapons trigger different reactions and so on.

And about whole discussions about arena shooters with pickups.

Well, there is reason why id Software piss on QuakeLive development and Epic Games gave up Unreal Tournament. Genre became niche.
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#52
Nexuiz also had fast weapon switching, and on top of that had way more powerfull nex. Yet the game was by far less spammy than Xonotic gameplay. I see few reasons for that.
1) Because of huge damage from nex, you could engage in messy face to face exchange only when fully stacked. Except when fully stacked, you needed to fight from a cover position. Also, most direct exchanges were finished in like two/three shoots. The game was basically more about moving/dodging than about pointless shooting.
2) Shotgun was weak in most decent Nexuiz servers. In Xonotic ffa, shotgun deals like most damage of all weapons. It's a pickup weapon, it's relatively easy one to use, and it has spread in bulets. So the game often ends up being a bulet fest - that single weapon is like half of the spam you observe on public matches.
3) In nex, rockets were only effective when guided (they were very slow) but had damage worth the effort. So you would often fight with guided rockets, rather than comboing - sort of weapon switch delay, except a volountary one.

Of course there were drawbacks to these settings - game was focused on four weapons (nex/mortar/rl/laser) and was rather unfriendly for newcommers (pulverized in two shoots on a spawn). But all in all, the gameplay wasn't spammy, unless there were too many players on a small map.
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#53
Very good points Subzero.
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#54
Thats exactly my point too, Majki, Subzero. This problem should be a priority. I hope that new solutions Samual is working on will remedy this issue. The game must become more about tactics and positioning then fast shooting spam. Weapon cooldown (especially after nex shot) should be implemented.

I heard that someone likes spending his time in CTS because its relaxing and fun. Well spammy death matches don't present this opportunity. You are over constant preasure of your enemies fire who spam everywhere; there is no room to breathe, to think about strategy (especially for beginners) - you grab shotgun and rush... this can be solved also by good singleplayer tutorial, but in the end such games are all about multiplayer, right?

So why people play misnta? Because you have one weapon, one type of shooting and plenty of targets. That seems so siple... not being overwhelmed by increasing number of weapons and secondary fires and spammy combos...
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#55
Many guns should not be a problem in the long run imo.

Think from perspective of average, post-quake-era player, who tries Xonotic. He played modern FPS games a lot. They have not many elements of Quake, they present new ideas and new gameplay.

He joins. He sees that game is about collecting guns. Awesome!

And he finds ie. Crylink. Powerful gun, has some cooldown time. And he goes after guys. He shoots - he misses, or he hits. Let's assume that he will miss a lot at the start Big Grin

What happens. From his perspective, he must wait. More experienced player smacks him with weapon A, after that switches to B, smacks again, and finally switches to C - Nex - new player dies in 1.5 sec and have no idea how his enemy killed him, since from his perspective, it's impossible: "How he did it, I have to wait some time to shoot again - is he cheating?".

So skills gained in different games are useless for newcomers.

In QuakeLive "CPMA" modifications are available only for Pro/Premium players, "default" game does not have it. You could add cooldown penalty for switching in Xonotic, and fast weapon switching call "XCPMA" (or anything), add it as server setting and make sure, that new player will be warned, if he joins "XCPMA".

Seriously - ppl want to have fun while playing videogames. Not sweat like pigs.
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#56
Imho the being spammy to a problematic extent applies mainly to deathmatch. I find this MUCH less of a problem in other game modes, and it doesn't disturb me at all in duel or ctf.
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#57
I think many duel players would welcome it if the game becomes a bit slower and more tactical, but something like "XCPMA" with instant weapon switch only really fits CA gameplay imo. Another example is Warsow, which is in a more advanced development state compared to Xonotic (I wont call it a better game, but it is a better "software" at the moment imo). Still Warsow also suffers from a lack of players, especially outside CA and instagib. So if we take this route towards a super fast-paced game like Warsow, and at some point reach the maturity of Warsow - tell me why Xonotic should have significant more players than Warsow in 1-2 years?

-> I don't say we should give up everything just to gain new players, but it sometimes it's helpful to think outside the box to understand where Xonotic stands in the context of fps games in 2013.
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#58
Well, the spamming is a problem, I've always said it could be fixed by delaying weapons switch after shooting with the nexgun or just make the weapon switch slower but that may harm combos. I really liked Subzero's take on the problem.
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#59
Well he in fact wants tiered weapons back - which I'm also a supporter of. But I don't agree with his details, especially I don't see the need to make the nexgun even stronger - if at all it should have a fixed damage and a reasonably high reload time, so you can't spam it in all situations (a bad weapon choice should be punished!). Btw, if I understood him correctly, Samual wants to fix the overpowered nexgun by restricting the amount of ammo that will be available on a map for this weapon.
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#60
(01-10-2013, 10:29 AM)asyyy Wrote: (a bad weapon choice should be punished!)

+1
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#61
Quote:(a bad weapon choice should be punished!).

Yes, it's basics of game design of FPP shooters Smile
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#62
ONLY AFTER the specific weapon is used. Then there should be delay or what (remember about players who switch their weapons with mouse wheel - like mirio) Sorry Mirio! No offense, just an example! Smile
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#63
Quote:ONLY AFTER the specific weapon is used

You are still thinking in "Xonotic way". Look at Quake. If you go with Rocket Launcher in situation when RL is obviously bad weapon, you will suffer not only with missed/not effective shot, but also with cooldown time, which prevents you from changing RL to proper gun. In the meantime enemy shoots you like crazy - that's the "punishment".
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#64
TLDR; we have a spam based game where all weapons are always useful.
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#65
No Faraday.. but you don't have to worry about approaching a situation with the wrong weapon as you can correct your mistake thanks to the fast weapon switch times.
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#66
Question: would current Xonotic "masters" allow changing that aspect of game or they value high scorec more than game's quality? Smile
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#67
I think you should put "allow" in "" instead. Wink I'm pretty sure that if you would ask players like fisume, kojn, pcl or lonex to design gameplay we would end up with way more tactical depth than what we have now. But you may not forget about the new and casual players of course. Still, I think there are ways to please both sides.
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#68
(01-10-2013, 10:29 AM)asyyy Wrote: Well he in fact wants tiered weapons back - which I'm also a supporter of. But I don't agree with his details, especially I don't see the need to make the nexgun even stronger - if at all it should have a fixed damage and a reasonably high reload time, so you can't spam it in all situations (a bad weapon choice should be punished!). Btw, if I understood him correctly, Samual wants to fix the overpowered nexgun by restricting the amount of ammo that will be available on a map for this weapon.

It's not just about nex - the dmg output in major Nexuiz weapons was high enough to steer the game towards seeking an oportunity instead of blindly attacking. A single combo there would often end the whole exchange, or throw the player off map. So players really were forced to build an advantage before confronting their opponents. That is why you didn't see a constant fire all over the map shot without taking any cover (as you often see in Xonotic ffa).

Taking combo out of Xonotic gameplay will only lead to more shotgun amo flying around. Oh wait... shotgun is going to be disguised in blastser. So expect constant blasting around. How long you can take it before your consciousness screams 'enough'?
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#69
This is now officially a balance thread.

(01-10-2013, 08:01 PM)_Subzero_ Wrote: Oh wait... shotgun is going to be disguised in blastser.

[Image: 641fcffad4e8fa6a2abec3da6af71d66.gif]
the idea was dropped
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#70
@asyyy

Don't underestimate power of competitive players. They can stop evolution of even most popular games.
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#71
Yes they can, if they stop caring and/or leave.
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#72
(01-10-2013, 03:43 PM)asyyy Wrote: No Faraday.. but you don't have to worry about approaching a situation with the wrong weapon as you can correct your mistake thanks to the fast weapon switch times.

Actually, I personally find that most situations can be approached with a variety of weapons e.g. if you want to shut down a hall or doorway with spam then the mortar, electro and hagar all work.
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#73
Faraday Wrote:Actually, I personally find that most situations can be approached with a variety of weapons e.g. if you want to shut down a hall or doorway with spam then the mortar, electro and hagar all work.

Yeah - you described problem perfectly :p
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#74
Yes but you don't play vs players who hit 60% nexgun.. then it becomes an aimfest.
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#75
Was talking about Nifrek this the other day, I always wanted some increase in how long it takes to swap weapons, at the moment it is nex, mortar, rl combo a a lot. With a single weapon off the spawn you can't do much about this unfortunately, I'm not talking about the shotgun either. Also there is the problem that player's seem to be able to walk through rocket's at time's and still get a high damage out put on yourself. I agree with a bit what subzero said also, the damage output was higher in Nexuiz. I don't get that feeling in Xonotic, they all feel weak in comparison to other game's, like not being able to do a kill with a direct hit rocket from someone off the spawn. The biggest problem though is what I wrote at the beginning, you just cannot do enough damage with a single weapon like the hagar or crylink or electro sometimes, when someone is combo'ing the nex/mortar for example..call it recycling weapons if you want. Same problem with the machinegun, I often feel I am hitting enough but I can't do enough damage output before someone with a good aim has nex+mortar combo'ed me twice in a row.

So this as discussed earlier in the thread leads to situations where you don't need to be situational in positioning a lot of the time, nor do you need to worry about what weapon you have out. Whilst in theory the weapons should be balanced against each other, the fact combo damage output greatly increases the damage output due to there being no need to worry about getting stuck in the open switching from say nex to RL or any other weapon having a drawback of using that weapon in a situation in other game's where you feel you would not have the advantage. I also believe good weapon skill is when a player can use a weapon that shouldn't necessarily win a fight in normal circumstances, but they use situational awareness and good weapon handling to prevail, it's frustrating to say it but I don't get that feeling much in Xonotic unfortunately. I played a little bit of QuakeLive and it's amazing how much you need to use the right weapon at the right time, or you have to deal with waiting for the weapon to change, that combined with stronger weapon's means you learn to utilize the weapons much more effectively.
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