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Poll: Which settings would you like to see as default in 0.8?
This poll is closed.
Reversion tourney
30.00%
9 30.00%
Keep vanilla
20.00%
6 20.00%
Reversion, but with tweaks (post which)
50.00%
15 50.00%
Total 30 vote(s) 100%
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Default balance

#51
(11-17-2014, 09:35 AM)shogun_assassin Wrote: Discussed with who? Adjusted how? I remember you discussed it with me late at
night when most people were offline.

Everyone is free to discuss it at #reversioncup, or at the thread on this forum. Many have taken that opportunity and made suggestions that then have been tested. With whom can I do the same when it comes to the current vanilla balance? All in all, the reversion settings are way more community centered than the current official one, which is mainly the result of the unfinished implantation of Samual's vision.


Quote:It all comes down to your opinion that Xonotic should look according something only you understand.

Do you really think people would play with these settings only because I made them? They play with them because they like it and because they can be a part of it (opposed to how the current vanilla balance had been created).


(11-17-2014, 09:09 AM)asyyy Wrote: I did not write that. Read again.

asyyy Wrote:An indicator however for popularity might be that people returned to the game
after the rev settings have been introduced on the servers.

might be != is for certain


Quote:No it's not dead and it wasn't dead before you returned.

stats.xonotic.org -> server popularity
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#52
(11-17-2014, 08:25 AM)asyyy Wrote: To quote halogene from last night: "Xonotic is about running around and doing flick shots"
Yes sure, play ca then. I don't come to ctf and say, ctf is about fragging, please remove the flags. You don't go to a chess club and tell everyone to play poker.

As I also stated last night I tend to give exaggerated examples to make the logic behind become apparent. OF COURSE you don't run around like a "brainless chicken" and only flick shot enemies in duel. BUT movement, and in particular fast movement, is one of the core aspects of Xonotic gameplay. I agree that duel and tdm are game modes where tactical aspects receive a different emphasis as for example in CA, making the movement part seem less important since it takes a smaller share of the overall gameplay package.

Still, the reversion settings seem to me to be tailored to the high-skilled tactical dueller that enjoys exploiting map and item control to fullest extent and wants to kill quickly so he does not have to chase a wounded opponent.

(11-17-2014, 08:25 AM)asyyy Wrote:
(11-17-2014, 03:49 AM)Halogene Wrote: As stated yesterday on IRC, I start to get the impression that some of the changes in reversion settings result from proficient players getting annoyed about occasionally getting fragged despite being in control or not being able to frag fast players that quickly when in control. This blends interestingly with observing situations like this since/with reversion settings:
  • insisting to play with same teams after 2 tdm matches where mercy limit kicked in after a couple of minutes, or
  • complaining about teams until getting a team that starts to lead by 40 points after latest 5 minutes (and calling it "competitive" afterwards...), or
  • complaining about the server not being really conveninent or to miss so many nex shots (accuracy: 41%) after a game that ends 172:82 to your favor.
If you start arguing on such a personal level, you should ask yourself if you are in the right position to judge on this subject objectively.

Just stating what I observe, those are not things I made up. And, while I'm at it, have you noticed that you tend to disqualify my opinions as worthless by definition by "you don't know what you're talking about"? See the poker and ctf references above, and also right here again. Yes, I'm aware that I was getting on a personal level (though you yourself are appearing only once in any of those situations), but such notions coming from the people that push reversion settings make me feel uneasy with the entire concept - especially when I (and apparently others) experience that reversion settings tend to produce more or intensify rape results.

Your [plural] efforts on generating the reversion settings and to bring Xonotic competitive gameplay back on track have been generally appreciated as far as I can tell, but I fear implying to know and follow THE ONE AND ONLY CONCEPT of Xonotic competitive gameplay while disqualifying other people's view on the subject matter risks to ruin the entire thing.

I thought we could maybe learn from the reversion settings, in which respect they are better than current vanilla ones and in which respect we should rather tweak existing concepts instead of using the reversion settings' approach. At least that was my intention, but apparently I'm not in the position to judge on this subject objectively anymore, and actually I have to admit that the elitist way these settings are being introduced start to generate more and more negative associations. So I guess it's probably better I just won't occupy myself with it any longer.
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#53
I do not want to be involved in your feelings, so please keep me out of that. Let's get back on topic instead. You made suggestions to which I offered objections, can you comment on that instead?
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#54
Sorry, I overreacted a bit. Asyyy has a point WRT making all weapons stronger instead of nerfing weapons that are currently OP. Arc/LG will for sure make Xonotic arsenal more complete. But to get closer to perfection Nex will need switch delay or some other nerf. And 125 health for laser jumps from spawn sounds good too. (I still don't get why of all weapons Nex was buffed for reversion cup).
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#55
Don't understand all the comments about nex being so strong.

What exactly are the value changes?

I hate the charging idea with a passion.

I disagreed about Electro nerf, machine can confirm, was not an issue before in my opinion, weapon was fine.

Hagar/crylink at the moment, completely fine.

Machine I read a small comment about how you can't beat zerg, his positioning is too good on hub so you can't rush as much with thre current settings with as much success?

Then your opponent is unfortunately, playing better. That's not a reason to change values? Surely not being able to defend against rushes defeats the purpose of defence.

Why when someone gets good with a weapon always a need to go 'wep OP, needs nerf'.

Happens with hagar/crylink now there used more.

Halogene - 'seriously?' You remember me saying this last night in tdm? Hagar kill on me, felt like loads of damage. More I need to get used to that weapon used on me. Probably I get killed with that weapon a lot, but I don't think its overpowered, although how good i
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#56
(11-17-2014, 11:29 AM)shogun_assassin Wrote: Sorry, I overreacted a bit. Asyyy has a point WRT making all weapons stronger instead of nerfing weapons that are currently OP. Arc/LG will for sure make Xonotic arsenal more complete. But to get closer to perfection Nex will need switch delay or some other nerf. And 125 health for laser jumps from spawn sounds good too. (I still don't get why of all weapons Nex was buffed for reversion cup).

The nex was actually nerfed compared to 0.6, namely by increasing the switch delay of it to 0.25 (from 0.2, it is 0.3 in 0.7). Wink

As the mortar got buffed and rocket launcher remained the same, the nex became weaker in relation to those weapons.

One suggestion that addresses most of the aforementioned problems would be to let people spawn with 110 hp or to simply lower nex max dmg to 85 hp (or a combination of both).

That being said, there will definitely be changes to the reversion settings before the end of this year. And probably a quick cup to test them.

Quote:Halogene - 'seriously?' You remember me saying this last night in tdm? Hagar kill on me, felt like loads of damage. More I need to get used to that weapon used on me. Probably I get killed with that weapon a lot, but I don't think its overpowered,

Haha same here. I got owned so much with hagar in last night's tdm. But in 100% of all cases it was my stupidity, being too confident in rushing an opponent. And I got punished for that. Don't take it personal if someone writes "..." or "fo" in chat, it's just rage. Take it as a compliment.
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#57
(sorry I didn't read the whole thread)

I voted for Reversion settings (with tweaks):

- 0.7 Crylink secondary (maybe with less damage)
- keep the current Nex switch delay, with 0.7 damage (80).
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#58
Okey, gonna try gather some stats what people think about the three major balances and differences. No suggestions included because they are not play tested and the solve purpose of this poll is just to get an overview. Do not answer here, please send PM to me
Code:
# Xonotic balance poll

### 1. Movement
* git (lower gravity, less strafe turning, more strafe jumping)
* 0.7 / 0.6 / rev (higher gravity, more strafe turning, less strafe jumping)

### 2. Weapon switch time
* 0.7 / git (0.2 + nex 3ms)
* 0.6 (0.2ms)
* rev (0.2ms + nex 0.25ms)

### 3. Weapon switch delay - added switch delay after firing a weapon
* 0.7 / git (0.6ms for nex, 0.4ms rl, 0.3ms for almost all others, 0.2ms for sg and laser)
* 0.6 / rev (0.4ms for rl and nex, 0.3ms for almost all others, 0.2ms for sg and laser)

### 4. Nexgun
* 0.7 / git (80dmg-40dmg)
* 0.6 /rev (90dmg-40dmg)

### 5. Crylink
* 0.7 / git (new secondary, movement/projectile with negative spash dmg)
* 0.6 / rev (old secondary, bouncing "plasmagun"-like output)

### 6. Electro
* 0.7 / git / 0.6 (normal electro, 300 units)
* rev (smaller combo splash radius, 250 units)

### 7. Mortar
* 0.7 / git / 0.6 (50dmg primary, 60dmg secondary)
* rev (55dmg primary, 55dmg secondary

### 8. Laser
* 0.7 / git / 0.6 (normal laser, 70 units)
* rev (smaller splash radius, 60 units)

### 9. Overall - which balance do you like the most as a whole
* git
* 0.7
* 0.6
* rev

### 10. Skill - what tier do you consider yourself playing
* high skill
* mid skill
* low skill

### 11. Activity - how actively are you playing Xonotic
* Almost every day
* Once a week
* Once a month
* Rarely
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#59
(11-17-2014, 12:22 PM)kojn^ Wrote: Then your opponent is unfortunately, playing better. That's not a reason to change values? Surely not being able to defend against rushes defeats the purpose of defence.
I'd say machine had no desire to change values when he was happily dueling Zerg with 0.7 balance.

(11-17-2014, 12:22 PM)kojn^ Wrote: Why when someone gets good with a weapon always a need to go 'wep OP, needs nerf'.
There were no complaints to 0.7 balance AFAIK. That's what community desired in fact.

@kojn, You're too far ahead. You need to first explain why non-standard changes you like are better.

@asyyy, you're right that Nex is currently the only useful hitscan weapon. Despite that, it was immensely powerful when operated by right person even in 0.7. The increased max damage in reversion far outweighs the increased fire-switch delay (0.05 s) in duels. Actually if you leave 0.7 Nex and introduce LG, the Nex will still be far more OP compared to glorious fairness of Quake* balance. I suspect that 1.5 seconds fire-switch delay won't be approved (rightfully). So since LG is finally going to replace crappy MG, we'll have 2 super powerful hitscan weapons and your argument for Nex change will become invalid. Reverting max Nex damage back to 0.7 is least you can do to make it fair.

WRT Electro. You said on IRC yesterday that you're willing to experiment more. I suggest we revert the splash back to 0.7 and work from there.

(11-17-2014, 09:59 AM)Halogene Wrote: Your [plural] efforts on generating the reversion settings and to bring Xonotic competitive gameplay back on track have been generally appreciated as far as I can tell, but I fear implying to know and follow THE ONE AND ONLY CONCEPT of Xonotic competitive gameplay while disqualifying other people's view on the subject matter risks to ruin the entire thing.

I 100% agree. This reminds me of another FLOSS project with same fate (*cough* systemd *cough*) where few active and vocal people did something good in the beginning (YMMV) but in the end pushed more than what was wanted to (a lot of) of users. I wouldn't like Xonotic to end like this. That's why I'm active in this discussion.

@machine, thank you for the work! I'm going to make the poll right now.

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#60
(11-17-2014, 12:22 PM)kojn^ Wrote: Machine I read a small comment about how you can't beat zerg, his positioning is too good on hub so you can't rush as much with thre current settings with as much success?

Then your opponent is unfortunately, playing better. That's not a reason to change values? Surely not being able to defend against rushes defeats the purpose of defence.

Yes, and I would like to see people be able to counter good positioning and be able to not get spawnkilled 10 times in 2 min when down, the best down player weapon on hub is in fact electro since then A. You can deal some damage without getting hit by nex shots B. Block areas so you can't get rushed by a 200/200 C. If you get slightly chance back to control you can actually control nex without having too high stack. For me that are three very reasonable reasons to have original electro, especially on hub. I don't see how you would say "Then your opponent is unfortunately, playing better.", that is my whole point. He was as good in 0.7 but there I was able to contest? So if I'm good with electro in 0.7 that's better reason to nerf than if someoen is good with nex in 0.8?? I don't even talk on that grounds, I want a good balance overall and nerfing electro makes it worse. This is not to mention electro in tdm and such now. I reference to zrg's and my matches because that is my experience with the different balances, and it's surely good to relate to actual playing experience than just thinking we can create nirvana without actually considering how shit works in-game.

(11-17-2014, 12:22 PM)kojn^ Wrote: Why when someone gets good with a weapon always a need to go 'wep OP, needs nerf'.

Well, that's kinda why electro was nerfed in first place, so using that argument against reverting electro is just silly! Also, my point was not to say "oh i got owned by zrg once please nerf nex", i've played him many many times and we have similar win/loses so I think it's very good player for me to reference matches to because we are quite equal.
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#61
Quote:There were no complaints to 0.7 balance AFAIK. That's what community desired in fact.

Seriously? Samual blocked all kind of input, and there was a lot of drama and frustration in the community. He followed his own vision strictly, without allowing community input. That's not a bad approach in general to get things done, but he did not finish implementing his ideas. It would have been finished with the lg, the new spawn weapon and the new ammo system being in place (and balancing it all together).

All in all, relax. There will definitely be tweaks and if you want to be involved in the process of testing/developing them, hang out at #reversioncup. I won't take part in a discussion that becomes merely emotional and personal, leads nowhere.
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#62
(11-18-2014, 07:43 AM)asyyy Wrote: Seriously? Samual blocked all kind of input, and there was a lot of drama and frustration in the community. He followed his own vision strictly, without allowing community input. That's not a bad approach in general to get things done, but he did not finish implementing his ideas. It would have been finished with the lg, the new spawn weapon and the new ammo system being in place (and balancing it all together).

Not completely true, Nex nerf and new crylink secondary is something many in the community had complained about for a long time. That said, the movement was probably the biggest change that community did not approve (I happen to like it personally but more people seemed to be off put by it than liking it)

BTW, asyyy i'm interested in hearing your concept you talked about on IRC more thoroughly, that about raising damage of all weapons overall. (excuse me if its in this thread already, if so just point me to the particular post)
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#63
Hosting a cup with a new balance based on reversion.
I won't tell changes aport from the following.

Important changes:
  • Raise g_armor_blockpercentage from 0.6 to 0.7 -> Makes Armor a bit stronger
  • Change rot values (1 HP/AP per second) -> Makes both mega items more equal to each other (Mega Health becomes useful)
  • NEX (not telling what changed)
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#64
Same electro as in reversion I pressume?
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#65
BALANCE THREAD 111!!!ONE!!11
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#66
Looks like reversion with tweaks will be the default for 0.8. Health caps will remain more open in the default config, but weapon balance settings will match (with 0.7 crylink secondary).

The latest and fanciest Arc updates will be available on the SMB Paris duel server (most recent changes being to the overheating effects). Balancing of the Arc has yet to commence, but I have applied some minor tweaks (like lowering burst damage from 500 to 250).
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#67
Will results of the poll be published somewhere? The RSS feed[1][2] doesn't work.

[1] http://46.4.83.5:27500/feed
[2] http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php...&pid=68948

EDIT: Sorry, it works. Will wait for the results then...
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#68
(11-22-2014, 06:18 AM)shogun_assassin Wrote: Will results of the poll be published somewhere? The RSS feed[1][2] doesn't work.

[1] http://46.4.83.5:27500/feed
[2] http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php...&pid=68948

EDIT: Sorry, it works. Will wait for the results then...

The server changed, check ref. [2] for an updated link.
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#69
Machine's pm box is full, so I post my feedback here in case anyone is interested.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qfubnkhkd01mz2...l.txt?dl=0
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#70
I've cleaned up my inbox, please re-send if you sent to me. 4 people have replied to it so far, I want more before publishing it.

(11-21-2014, 09:47 PM)Mario Wrote: Looks like reversion with tweaks will be the default for 0.8. Health caps will remain more open in the default config, but weapon balance settings will match (with 0.7 crylink secondary).

What about electro? What about other suggestions people have had in this thread?
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#71
Mirio is working on bringing the suggestions together from this thread, they will be available in the testing cup.
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#72
My feedback on the tweaks:


The good things:

- hagar secondary nerf:
I like it. It is still strong enough to kill any player without armor, but you don't go down instantly if you have 100/100 (you get crippled though).

- crylink secondary:
Basically 0.7 secondary + a little buff. Seemed fine.

- stronger armor (armor takes more damage in relation to health):
This is awesome. No matter whether you pick up a mega armor, 25a or shards, it will protect you especially vs spawn weapon abuse.

- health/armor rot decreased to 1 unit / second:
In tdm this felt really nice and in duel, I liked it too. Finally the megahealth is worth the risk to pick it up! However, in duel, it seems imbalanced on maps that have a lot of shards, e.g. stormkeep. Before, when you were in control, having 100/100 (or 200/100), you could run around and deny the shards by picking them up. Now they make you significantly stronger. That's not a bad thing in general, but it makes in control play too easy on some maps (so far I have only observed that on stormkeep).


The bad things:

- nerfed electro
It is simply too weak now, hard to deal any damage at all due to the reduced radius.

- rocketlauncher increased switchdelay:
This was activated by accident, due to new cvars being introduced in git which were not part of the rev config yet. I want to give my feedback nevertheless: it was absolutely dreadful.


Mixed feelings:

- sg nerf:
I was a supporter of nerfing the sg in the past, BUT I don't think this is necessary anymore with the other changes being in place (see above).

- nexgun lower refire rate, 80 dmg, no charge, increased switchdelay (by animtime):
It felt completely different. More concrete, it felt useless in combos, beside of as a finisher. Actually, to me it felt a lot like the Quake Live railgun. I cannot deny that it makes sense to make the nexgun like that, as Quake Live is the most balanced arena fps out there. But to me, Xonotic always had been about fast combos of all kinds. IMO, copying Quake Live should not be the way to go. And with the LG being implemented soon, the fights will be very similar to what you have in Quake Live: rocket + nex, lg + nex, rocket + lg + nex (+ some spam with other weapons). One can of course take that route, and as a quake player I could live with it. It would however not leave much left of what Xonotic has been.
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#73
(Using asyyy's post as template, hope you don't mind)

The good things:

- nexgun:
To be honest I thought it would be even more no-think combo feast without charge (even with the added slight delay), but the result was nice, it's still very strong (which is good because it makes comebacks easier and gameplay overall more enjoyable) but not like a third mega item.

- crylink secondary:
Yay, old crylink was way to horrible (and redundant by mortar), this one I like a lot, it fits a place where you want to spam/block an entrance but other weapon's projectiles are too slow moving, and has movement its very unique and a great addition that sets Xonotic even more apart from its competitors.

- stronger armor (armor takes more damage in relation to health):
I liked this a lot, when out of control you had to play more defensive and rushing had to be more aggressive and performed in only situations where it is "good". Gameplay felt generally more tactical and foremost: fun!

- health/armor rot decreased to 1 unit / second:
Agree with asyyy here, I liked it but on some maps (stormkeep) it may be too extreme.

The bad things:

- nerfed electro
Nerfing electro even more really disappointed me, I died once in the whole cup by an electro and I wasn’t able to kill anyone with a electro combo myself (I hit a few electro combos though, but only once it actually outputted enough damage so I could finish opponent off with other weapons).

- nerfed hagar secondary
Hagar have always felt like a weapon with the sole purpose of helping the down player. Now when it's secondary is even more weak I don't even see the purpose of it, because its not many situation where this is useful on most of the popular maps. It's load up makes it perfect for down player who want to surprise attack, which is usually the down player. The load up makes it even more perfect for down player because the player has probably less weapons, and this weapon is strong without combos.

- rocketlauncher increased switchdelay:
I would usually argue that this is good change, but after playing with the change I can say was only harming legit combos. And yes, I know it was a unintended change but I think it was just good so I could realize this was not good. Tongue

- mortar secondary nerf (reversion change)
I abused mortar secondary quite a bit till reversion balance, so I'm probably a bit biased, but I feel the secondary is slightly too weak with new armor settings, maybe this is because electro is so weak that I have to use mortar secondary instead that make me realize this, but predicting and shooting "random" mortar secondary doesn't feel as rewarding as before, so I would argue to revert it back to 60dmg but also keeping the buff of its primary.

Mixed feelings:

- sg nerf:
I did not notice it when I played so guess I don't mind the change, but I'm not sure how this would play out in say TDM or CTF.

New ideas:

- faster weapon switch, slower animedrop delay
I like when combos are actually difficult and performed with purpose for a particular situation, in contrast to simply raising DPS which I feel has been the state of Xonotic since I started playing seriously. I don't want to remove combos though, no, I want to have more combo'ing than in Quake because its become an aspect that makes Xonotic unique. That doesn't mean we have to have OP spam combos (ie spamming between splash weapon and nex in close-combat instead of switching to nex when you actually push someone up mid air, hence my physics suggestions below). So what I propose is to change *all* weapon switch time a little bit, and keeping nex and also RL delay (but of course lowered by same amount as the rest, just that these have slower switching time than the rest).

- physics changes
I would like to so minuscule lower of the gravity, and a minuscule nerf of air control. This is to make air shot happens more often and jumping down from high grounds not as easy (because it will be easy to get hit by nex).
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#74
I haven't tried Mirio's approach on the balance (I was unable to participate, sadly), but I find it very nice to see these resumées of the session with a lot of good and thought-through arguments. From what I read here, I believe this is going into a good direction.

As for machine's hagar argumentation, I couldn't have said it better myself, currently (git) hagar is a very good weapon to choose when not in control since you don't need to combo it and it can deal a lot of surprise damage, yet it is risky to use due to self damage by splash and high spread so the player in control would prefer other weapons over it (indicating it is actually not really overpowered). I find myself refuging to hagar in tdms as I play too brainless to live long enough to hold enough weapons to effectively pull off combos, and that yields reasonably satisfying results (not enough to put me back onto the map usually, but I manage to kill people) :o)

I would support a tad less air control as suggested by machine, I remember it was a lot easier to push people off maps in Nexuiz which was great fun - and with slightly less air control this fun aspect could help adding to the overall gameplay fun for non-pro players (pro players tend to not so much like space maps). Just an idea.
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#75
I agree with many points in the previous posts and will come up with an improved config. Probably needs another test day then.

The rot is too strong like that, so I would like to try some kind of middle between default rot and this rot.
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