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Poll: Delay and overheat?
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Keep it
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0 0%
Get rid of it
100.00%
11 100.00%
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Arc delay/overheat discussion

#1
Here's an older thread about this same subject, however the discussion was mostly turned down because Arc was still considered experimental and in general "not real".

So we're working with Arc once again and it's time to discuss it's future. Here's my take on the arguments that I've come across. Read it through and let me know what you think.

What's the "Arc"? It's a weapon similar to lightning gun (LG) in Quake1, Quake3, Quake4, Warsow and so on. It's purpose is to be a pixel accurate mid-range hitscan weapon which you're supposed to be able to point, click and deal damage at any given time within the range. Xonotic's "Arc" is not as accurate as it has a bending shaft, so you need to lead aim a little bit but it's still a hitscan weapon regardless.

What's the "delay"? It's an X duration of time that you have to wait before refiring the Arc. You shoot something, let go of fire key - wait for delay - shoot again.

What's the "overheat"? If you keep firing the weapon long enough without letting go of the fire button, it will overheat and you'll have even longer delay.

Quote:The reason there's cooldown or delay for the weapon is so that people wouldn't spam it, especially in game modes such as weaponarena that have infinite ammo.
First of all weaponarena is played by a minority of people and very little in comparison to other modes. Secondly I think the delay is actually counter productive for that purpose. Because letting go of the key hinders your ability to fire again and you're more tempted to keep on holding to the fire key when your opponent wiggles behind an obstacle or a corner. This way the weapon would become spammy again, but it's obviously solved with the overheat. So what we have here now is a counter productive anti-spam feature, with an additional feature to prevent that spam which together hinders the weapon usage and comboing in my opinion.

Quote:Spammy + infinite ammo
It's probably the very premise and role of the weapon that you're considering spammy. It's just simply how the weapon is supposed to work. I've played mods in Quake Live that had infinite ammo and you're right, people spam it a lot there. However they use it sparingly because it's not useful in every situation. And that spam is really only a problem in modes that have infinite ammo which only a minor part of the community is into. The weapon as it is now, feels unsatisfying, laggy and restricted for all the wrong reasons. Imagine that in order to fire Vortex, you'd have to hold the fire key for 200ms before the beam comes out. That's the equivalent kind of frustration that Arc makes me feel.

Quote:If your enemy hides behind a corner during shaft fight, stop shooting and just change to a splash weapon.
If your enemy only does that for a half second, then it would be much slower to first wait for the Arc delay and then weapon switch. If your enemy is low, I'm pretty sure anyone who understand the game would just keep holding the fire key for Arc until eventually you see a glimpse of your enemy.

Quote:It looks and sounds bad when you can tap the fire at any time without any delay.
That's a sound/effect design issue, not a gameplay design issue and in my opinion it would be worth the sacrifice.

Quote:We don't want to clone Quake, a game that is dead and unsuccessful in today's market anyway
Let's be honest, only reason Xonotic has Arc is because people wanted an "LG" to Xonotic. There's an entire demographic of arena shooter fans who'd expect and love for this kind of weapon to work exactly like Quake. That is because that's what makes the weapon work. People who hate LG in the first place, will hate it no matter what you do to it and scream out spam. I don't see the point of making it frustrating to the only group of people that wanted it in the first place. Also, the Arc's beam bends and were experimenting something equivalent of Hagar primary, for Arc's secondary. That's already enough distinction from Quake if that's what you're worried about.

Quote:It's meant to replace machinegun, which had delay and reload too
And that was annoying for the same reasons as well. Machinegun filled no roles in the weapon arsenal of Xonotic besides occasionally being the only weapon that you can find or finishing off low HP enemies in situations where you're not confident with other weapons. You've never really had to worry about players with good tracking aim in Xonotic and the purpose of Arc is to emphasize that role. Machinegun could not do it, but Hopefully arc will. Rather than thinking of replacing a role of a certain weapon, just think of it as replacing a weapon slot and trying something new.
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#2
Yeah

It's as you can give everyone mortar or rocket using 150ms of lag, that feeling and it would be ""fair"" for playing but it is just frustrating and not as much fun. It feels trouble to try any combo to other weapon with it, like old lg+rail or maybe because of the overheat to switch, maybe not as much to switch to but you feel it, it ends making you only sitting with one weapon in fight and makes it a strafe/tracking battle for 10 seconds until someone gets shafted, someone goes away and you switch to send something after and smashing the key waiting for the delay to end is not something that is rewarding aim/awareness.

I would think to "balance" it without delay/overheat could lessen knockback as well, it's powerful enough if you can get pinned to the roof like it's amphi
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#3
What about getting rid of the Arc delay, but keeping the overheat feature?
This way the weapon would be more enjoyable to use, but the overheat would still prevent players from abusing it.

By the way, I don't think the Machinegun is a useless weapon: it's very useful to slow down players, for example a flag stealer in CTF.
And some players really master this weapon (Draelor is absolutely Godlike with the MG).
Stats | Maps: CTF: disarray, vinegar, metro DM: labyrinth Duel: cucumber, quark.
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#4
As much as I like the concept of the arc, I have to agree that the current implementation is frustrating.
I certainly would prefer to get rid of the delay, for a more responsive feel.
As for the overheat, wouldn't it be possible to only make it "heat up" while it is dealing damage? That could be a middle path.
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#5
(02-03-2016, 12:24 PM)sev Wrote: As for the overheat, wouldn't it be possible to only make it "heat up" while it is dealing damage? That could be a middle path.
(02-03-2016, 12:00 PM)SpiKe! Wrote: What about getting rid of the Arc delay, but keeping the overheat feature?
This way the weapon would be more enjoyable to use, but the overheat would still prevent players from abusing it.
But people abusing it is only really an issue in games where you got infinite ammo and even there you got mortar/rocket/vortex combos to fight against. All you need is a blaster to render an "Arc abuser" useless and that's available in every mod always, with infinite ammo or not. It's not necessary to limit Arc this way, it's a wrong way to approach the balance in my opinion. Should rather look at dps values, knockback and ammo consumption (new ammo type even).

(02-03-2016, 12:00 PM)SpiKe! Wrote: By the way, I don't think the Machinegun is a useless weapon: it's very useful to slow down players, for example a flag stealer in CTF.
And some players really master this weapon (Draelor is absolutely Godlike with the MG).
I've never been slowed in CTF with machinegun, killed maybe but never slowed down and I'm not sure if that's because I'm too fast or because nobody really uses it even. Shotgun and Crylink in contrast has stopped me running plenty of times though.

Arc would definitely fit that role better and Draelor's tracking aim would be actually useful this time, it would be even better because Arc doesn't have spread. It's cool that Draelor can aim with machinegun, but if he has a rocket, mortar or even vortex then he doesn't really need those skills. I've never had to worry about Draelor's machinegun in duel and that's a waste of skill and playstyle.
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#6
(02-03-2016, 12:46 PM)Smilecythe Wrote: It's not necessary to limit Arc this way, it's a wrong way to approach the balance in my opinion. Should rather look at dps values, knockback and ammo consumption
Don't get me wrong, I agree with this. My overheat suggestion is an idea for a compromise.
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#7
My main issue with Arc is that, particularly if you're on a high ping, it's really laggy. The current implementation also really seems to drop my FPS a bit, which is a problem on maps that are a bit heavy on the rendering.

FWIW: Intel® Core™2 Quad CPU Q9400 @ 2.66GHz with Nvidia GTS450. Yes I should upgrade, but it's better than some people have.

Other than that, I have no issue with the weapon, esp in team games where it's really useful to use the Arc heal your team mates with (eg: following a flag carrier, healing team mates before they go pick up extra health & then attack, etc).
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Quote:“To summarize the summary of the summary: people are a problem.” - Douglas Adams
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#8
(02-03-2016, 01:53 PM)cefiar Wrote: My main issue with Arc is that, particularly if you're on a high ping, it's really laggy. The current implementation also really seems to drop my FPS a bit, which is a problem on maps that are a bit heavy on the rendering.
It's not any laggier than Vortex, Mortar or any other gun. And since it's a hitscan and there's client side detection in Xonotic you should be able to play with it just fine. I tested it yesterday with 200 ping.
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#9
As the weapon stands now its almost next to useless for me. With all the delay, overheat, cooldown and bending nonsense It would have to be a last resort for me to use. Yesterdays experimentation with Mario, Smiley and friends was definitely a step forward. Turning into a more UT style weapon with the beam primary and plasma secondary (virtually hagar primary but now with more green balls) and zero spread was a decent prototype. I will definitely miss the machine gun in TDM and hagar secondary. If we do decide to go that route we can possibly add the charging feature to another weapon in the future.
[Image: 38443.png]
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#10
My thoughts:

- The modifications to the secondary I saw the other day are a definite step forward in that regard. I think we should continue along that path!
- I'm in favor of less/no delay. Aside from the secondary being completely op, it is this delay that infuriates me the most.
- I'll hold back on any opinions on overheating until I get a chance to fully test.
asyyy^ | are you releated to chuck norris?
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