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[SUGGESTION] Casual vanilla balance

#51
(08-30-2017, 08:15 PM)Lyberta Wrote: Hmm, I guess there should be a cvar that disable it so you can't see item pickups through walls.
That just sounds like you're eliminating mechanics that make the game easier for newbies just so you can try to sabotage better players, who will still learn the map faster than newbies (I still know where the weapon spawns are in general and the new player either has no idea or has little experience in grabbing those weapons). Further, both that and randomized weapons are counterproductive if your goal is to teach the player where items are on the map. They hurt new players in the long run more than they do experienced players. Mutators like that are good for kicking back and mindlessly fragging, but they don't fix the issue Xonotic has currently

Quote:Lyberta

With current balance when you spawn, you have 100 hp and shotgun while your opponent has 200 hp, 200 armor and vortex. With my suggestion your opponent will have 100 hp and 100 (or 0 if we disable it) armor. You have more chances, remember that vortex is one of the hardest weapons to hit someone with.
It really doesn't take long for me to waste people in warmup (where people spawn with 100/100) and vort is one of the easier weapons to hit with because all you need is 1 pixel and no travel time. The flip side of vort is that if you miss you have to wait a bit for your next shot (but not very long because fully charging shots just isn't worth it) provided you don't just combo it (which I do)


Quote:Lyberta

There is no end to the game. You can play indefinitely. I enjoy killing people in videogames even if they are bots. I mostly play alone with bots and I have no plans to stop playing.
Are you intentionally missing the point here?
New player comes in. Experienced player comes in. New player beats experienced player, then goes "Well, this game must be super easy because I just beat an experienced player day one". New player goes to play Overwatch or whatever the FotM game is at the time. There are some people who will come in for mindless frags, but most people will just see the game as that and go for something they think is more cerebral

Quote:Lyberta

Xonotic is free software and it is developed by a community. There is no single vision of what Xonotic should feel like. Everyone has their own preferences. I do have plans for a military shooter total conversion but the current code must be brought into the 21st century first.
That doesn't mean that there aren't better or worse decisions to make for it overall. That's why this is a discussion and not people working on 8 separate mods/forks

Quote:Lyberta

And on that front we completely failed. Vanilla is very hard and boring. As a result, nobody plays vanilla
It sounds like you don't especially enjoy Xonotic and would rather that it be an entirely different game. I have to wonder what the purpose is in attempting to convert what it is (remembering that this is a discussion on vanilla Xonotic, and not Xonotic offshoots) instead of working on your own project (or converting what you've already worked on into a fork/mod). On the "hard" part, I helped train up a batch of newbies in a very short amount of time. As I stated prior, onboarding would help immensely with Xonotic's population issue. The issue is that many people don't have good learning tools at their disposal, and the game often does a poor job of communicating priorities to the user.


Quote:Lyberta

Free software has the freedom of making changes to it to suit your needs. Xonotic tries to not restrict this freedom. That is why I reject proprietary games. Warsow, Q2, Q3 and UT are proprietary (I have no idea what is Ratz) and do not give that freedom. That is why I choose Xonotic and spend months of my life contributing code to it.
Warsow is under GPL. Every classic id software release came with a sourcecode dump under GPL a few years down the road. There is nothing stopping you from editing any of these to be what you want. There is nothing stopping you from making your own Xon/Nex offshoot or Xonotic mod. The point of this thread is to discuss Vanilla Xonotic, not to discuss how Xonotic should be an entirely different game. By arguing along this line of thought you've missed my point as well. Why would a player move from any of Xon's competitors to Xonotic? If we dumb down Xonotic to the point where it's as deep as a puddle, why would people play it over the alternatives? If the main mode is Insta, why would they play Xon Insta over ratz/wsw/quake/ut Insta? The vast VAST majority of people do not care if their games are FOSS or not (thats why they play proprietary games on STEAM, Battle.net or play LoL). That is your personal preference, and it is entirely unrelated to the issue of getting more people to play the game. While the time you spend on the game is commendable and definitely appreciated, it is somewhat tangential to the discussion at hand


Quote:Lyberta

The problem is that not all people want to use their knowledge. For example, I know what strafejumping is, I have read Halogene's newbie corner, I have performed strafejumping in game to see that I understood it. But I have no desire to use in matches. It's non-obvious, it's stupid and requires tons of mental energy. As a result, I don't want to do strafejumping. And if gamemode requires me to do it to win, I will not play that gamemode. As a result, I don't play vanilla since I hate map control. The second to last match in singleplayer campaign (it was glowplant, maybe changed now) has so skilled bots that I had to do map control to win. I still remember that match as one of the worst Xonotic matches I have ever played.
This is why mods exist. However regarding the discussion of Vanilla Xonotic, there are certain mechanics that are part of the core gameplay. Even if the movement isn't/hasn't been exactly what it is now, the idea behind jumping to move faster has always been present, grabbing items for more health/armor has always been present, multiple weapons have always been present. These are core aspects of Vanilla Xonotic. The goal should be to present these aspects to new players in an easily digestible manner. If they dont want to play that and decide OK or Insta is more their thing, that's fine, but the base mode (no mods) should be properly represented and supported

Quote:Lyberta


Xonotic exists for a long time and low player count is the proof that nobody wants to play Xonotic since it is a bad game by default.
Xonotic is a game with poor onboarding and no visibility. Why would it have a large playerbase? There are thousands upon thousands of games out there and many of them are designed to catch people's attention and hook them quickly. Tons of money gets poured into this stuff every year. Xonotic could be the holy grail of gaming with absolutely perfect mechanics, but without proper tutorialization and visibility it wont hit big numbers.
Calling it a "bad game" though, speaks to a certain amount of bias, and definitely does not paint your statements or intentions in a good light. It, causes me to feel as though the discussion you're attempting to have is in bad faith
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#52
I think everyone itt wants to see Xonotic keep more of the players that try it.

Martin, I don't think a severely crippled version of vanilla is going to keep new players interested anymore than all the AAA games that take the same approach.  Nexuiz was interesting years ago because it was different from the mainstream, open source, fast, and challenging. 

If you're intent on writing new modes, play to the strengths of Xonotic.  Build new modes that keep the movement or the item timing but make these goals more obvious instead of permanently crutching players, as hook has done to insta players.  Maybe make a server with newbie-friendly modes that help them figure out the game naturally.  Weapons Arena will make it obvious to new players how to use each weapon.  Gun Game forces players to use guns they might not have any practice with.  Beemann had some really good suggestions for game modes that give you points based on what pickups you grab.  Lyberta had a spin on zombies where humans with the big guns play against zombies with vanilla weapons.  Could be good for giving new players a little more time or a chance to gang up on the more experienced.  

You can build whatever you want but I think voteable newbie servers with interesting modes and scheduled game nights would do more to bring in and keep new players than a mode that's a few too many compromises in to appeal to anyone.
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#53
(08-30-2017, 09:08 PM)Beemann Wrote: That just sounds like you're eliminating mechanics that make the game easier for newbies just so you can try to sabotage better players, who will still learn the map faster than newbies (I still know where the weapon spawns are in general and the new player either has no idea or has little experience in grabbing those weapons). Further, both that and randomized weapons are counterproductive if your goal is to teach the player where items are on the map. They hurt new players in the long run more than they do experienced players. Mutators like that are good for kicking back and mindlessly fragging, but they don't fix the issue Xonotic has currently

As a person who uses arrow keys instead of WASD, I take no profit from those binds. Again, i don't think people should learn the position of weapons to be good at the game.

(08-30-2017, 09:08 PM)Beemann Wrote: It really doesn't take long for me to waste people in warmup (where people spawn with 100/100) and vort is one of the easier weapons to hit with because all you need is 1 pixel and no travel time. The flip side of vort is that if you miss you have to wait a bit for your next shot (but not very long because fully charging shots just isn't worth it) provided you don't just combo it (which I do)

All you need is making sure your crosshair points directly at the player model. This is hard.

(08-30-2017, 09:08 PM)Beemann Wrote: Are you intentionally missing the point here?
New player comes in. Experienced player comes in. New player beats experienced player, then goes "Well, this game must be super easy because I just beat an experienced player day one". New player goes to play Overwatch or whatever the FotM game is at the time. There are some people who will come in for mindless frags, but most people will just see the game as that and go for something they think is more cerebral

Nope, if i come to the game and can instantly frag someone, I will most likely stay longer. I barely played such shit games as Call of Duty, Counter-strike and Dota 2 because they are too hard for newbies. Team Fortress 2 and Left 4 Dead, on the other hand, are much easier.

(08-30-2017, 09:08 PM)Beemann Wrote: That doesn't mean that there aren't better or worse decisions to make for it overall. That's why this is a discussion and not people working on 8 separate mods/forks

Let's see, Xonotic, Nexuiz, Rexuiz, Jeff server, Overkill servers, Vore Tournament, who knows what else? There are tons of mods and forks.

(08-30-2017, 09:08 PM)Beemann Wrote: It sounds like you don't especially enjoy Xonotic and would rather that it be an entirely different game. I have to wonder what the purpose is in attempting to convert what it is (remembering that this is a discussion on vanilla Xonotic, and not Xonotic offshoots)


This is a discussion for a new config that doesn't exist yet.

(08-30-2017, 09:08 PM)Beemann Wrote: Warsow is under GPL. Every classic id software release came with a sourcecode dump under GPL a few years down the road. There is nothing stopping you from editing any of these to be what you want.


Quite a few of Warsow assets are proprietary. All id game assets are proprietary. I'm not messing with proprietary assets.

(08-30-2017, 09:08 PM)Beemann Wrote: Why would a player move from any of Xon's competitors to Xonotic? If we dumb down Xonotic to the point where it's as deep as a puddle, why would people play it over the alternatives?


Because it will be easier than those alternatives. Warsow is one of the worst games ever. Only Red Eclipse is somewhat good because it has almost no pickups at all.

(08-30-2017, 09:08 PM)Beemann Wrote: This is why mods exist. However regarding the discussion of Vanilla Xonotic, there are certain mechanics that are part of the core gameplay. Even if the movement isn't/hasn't been exactly what it is now, the idea behind jumping to move faster has always been present, grabbing items for more health/armor has always been present, multiple weapons have always been present. These are core aspects of Vanilla Xonotic. The goal should be to present these aspects to new players in an easily digestible manner. If they dont want to play that and decide OK or Insta is more their thing, that's fine, but the base mode (no mods) should be properly represented and supported


This is about a casual mode and casual mode may deviate from default config.

Anyway, GunGame took me less than a day. There are still few small things needed to polish, but gameplay works.
?️‍? <- that should be a rainbow flag emoji.
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#54
(08-30-2017, 09:08 PM)Lyberta Wrote: As a person who uses arrow keys instead of WASD, I take no profit from those binds. Again, i don't think people should learn the position of weapons to be good at the game.
So because you haven't personally benefited from the function, it shouldn't exist? I've helped train up a decent chunk of newbies in my short time here, and I made sure they were aware of the aforementioned function so that they could get a better idea of the map layout. 
As well, personal preference is not really how a game should be designed. Please make an actual argument for the removal of weapon spawn knowledge


(08-30-2017, 09:08 PM)Lyberta Wrote: All you need is making sure your crosshair points directly at the player model. This is hard.
Yes, that's all you need to do. No that's not hard. That's just part of playing a shooter. Why would you expect to not aim and shoot at people when that's the genre you've selected?


(08-30-2017, 09:08 PM)Lyberta Wrote: Nope, if i come to the game and can instantly frag someone, I will most likely stay longer. I barely played such shit games as Call of Duty, Counter-strike and Dota 2 because they are too hard for newbies. Team Fortress 2 and Left 4 Dead, on the other hand, are much easier.
That's not what I said at all. I said if you came into a game and instantly beat one of the more experienced players (even if it wasnt a top 10 player) would you not assume the game was extremely shallow?
Also Call of Duty is explicitly designed such that you can get frags even if you are completely new at the game. It is by no means difficult. L4D Versus, I would argue, requires much more coordination and better aim skill to match the maneuverability of the special infected (and we shouldnt be making apples to oranges comparisons of fighting AI to fighting humans)
TF2 is also more difficult, it's just that most of the people you play against likely dont know all of the tricks. It's worth remembering that 6's exist, and that people play TF2 on a competitive level (and make use of health and ammo pickups on the map, which they memorize). TF2 doesnt have as high a skill ceiling as Quake and its descendants, but it's higher than you're implying


(08-30-2017, 09:08 PM)Lyberta Wrote: Let's see, Xonotic, Nexuiz, Rexuiz, Jeff server, Overkill servers, Vore Tournament, who knows what else? There are tons of mods and forks.
How many of those were generated as a result of this thread? 0. I'd immensely appreciate if you would address my actual points instead of supplanting ones you'd prefer to address.


(08-30-2017, 09:08 PM)Lyberta Wrote: This is a discussion for a new config that doesn't exist yet
It's a discussion regarding a vanilla config, and as such addresses the core mechanics of Xonotic (since you wouldnt make your vanilla configuration something that inadequately represents your game's unmodded mechanics)
(08-30-2017, 09:08 PM)Lyberta Wrote: Quite a few of Warsow assets are proprietary. All id game assets are proprietary. I'm not messing with proprietary assets.
ioQ3 exists. Assets can be replaced


(08-30-2017, 09:08 PM)Lyberta Wrote: Because it will be easier than those alternatives. Warsow is one of the worst games ever. Only Red Eclipse is somewhat good because it has almost no pickups at all.
So why is your focus on Xonotic, a game that doesn't have what you want, and not on Red Eclipse, which does?
Further, if pickups have always been the issue, why am I not hearing massive success stories from Red Eclipse? Both games are pre-release, and Red Eclipse had its big release more recently, so if anything it should be doing amazingly well


(08-30-2017, 09:08 PM)Lyberta Wrote: This is about a casual mode and casual mode may deviate from default config.
The casual mode is the vanilla mode, just as CPM is not the default for Quake, and 6v6/Highlander are not the default for TF2, but the casual public mode is. The thread title literally says "Vanilla" and the argument being made is that these changes should be made to the base game. That is the default in any reasonable definition. I'm not sure why it's so difficult to get you to actually address my points instead of dancing around the issue
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#55
Lyberta Wrote:Nope, if i come to the game and can instantly frag someone, I will most likely stay longer. I barely played such shit games as Call of Duty, Counter-strike and Dota 2 because they are too hard for newbies. Team Fortress 2 and Left 4 Dead, on the other hand, are much easier.
You do realize some of those "shit games that are too hard for newbies" are also immensely popular with thriving playerbases, top in concurrent players on Steam? They have also existed prior to lootbox mechanisms and some of them had humble beginnings as mods. Many people who play a game competitive in nature appreciate a skill journey and play to get better. Its that some games, the path is more clear and others may try to give a visual representation of it.

If there's no way to get better, or the game is designed toward some kind of frag communism, it invites a kind of stagnation that will bore players eventually. If the appeal is the +1's on-screen and whatever aesthetic feedbacks from kills, then it's recognizably a shallow experience.

And to add.
North America is very low in population right now. And SPLAT, the evil notorious pubstomping duelist, quit playing the game for sometime by now. Must be some kind of newbie haven? It's arguably deader than it was before whenever I check the server browser.
Xonotic exists for a long time and low player count is the proof that nobody wants to play Xonotic since it is a bad game by default.
- Lyberta, 2017
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#56
(08-31-2017, 09:25 AM)Beemann Wrote: So because you haven't personally benefited from the function, it shouldn't exist?

Xonotic is the only game that I know of that has this feature. It is extremely obscure and gives a lot of advantage to skilled players. As a result, it is used to crush newbies and should be restricted for their sake.

(08-31-2017, 09:25 AM)Beemann Wrote: Yes, that's all you need to do. No that's not hard. That's just part of playing a shooter. Why would you expect to not aim and shoot at people when that's the genre you've selected?

It is the hardest. Players move very fast, it's extremely hard to hit them. Therefore, I use shotgun and explosive weapons since they don't have this requirement.

(08-31-2017, 09:25 AM)Beemann Wrote: That's not what I said at all. I said if you came into a game and instantly beat one of the more experienced players (even if it wasnt a top 10 player) would you not assume the game was extremely shallow?


If it's FOSS, it would totally become my most played game.

(08-31-2017, 09:25 AM)Beemann Wrote: Also Call of Duty is explicitly designed such that you can get frags even if you are completely new at the game. It is by no means difficult.

I have played it for about 2 hours and couldn't frag anyone. I've quit and have never returned.

(08-31-2017, 09:25 AM)Beemann Wrote: L4D Versus, I would argue, requires much more coordination and better aim skill to match the maneuverability of the special infected (and we shouldnt be making apples to oranges comparisons of fighting AI to fighting humans)

It has coop mode with easy and normal settings which are accessible.

(08-31-2017, 09:25 AM)Beemann Wrote: It's a discussion regarding a vanilla config

Ah I see, you stick to the word "vanilla". I guess I'm gonna make another thread without that word.

(08-31-2017, 09:25 AM)Beemann Wrote: ioQ3 exists. Assets can be replaced

Only OpenArena replaced the assets and it's not very good. If replacing assets was easy, we would see a lot of FOSS Quake-based games.

(08-31-2017, 09:25 AM)Beemann Wrote: So why is your focus on Xonotic, a game that doesn't have what you want, and not on Red Eclipse, which does?

The main issue with Red Eclipse is that the main developer is extremely retarded and malicious. He banned source code mods in his master server and demands that server owners give privileges higher than administrator to people who lick that main developer's ass. I actually contacted Richard Stallman regarding that issue and he replies that "it is going too far". Also the engine is horrible and does everything client-side. You can fly around the map, kill players through the whole map and server will happily trust you.

(08-31-2017, 01:03 PM)Antares* Wrote: You do realize some of those "shit games that are too hard for newbies" are also immensely popular with thriving playerbases, top in concurrent players on Steam?

I do realize that those games are popular with intellectually disabled people who will happily run malware in order to get their fix. I may be mentally disabled but not intellectually disabled.

Anyway, I see that the word vanilla draws strong opinions. I guess I will stop arguing about vanilla stuff.
?️‍? <- that should be a rainbow flag emoji.
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#57
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#58
(08-31-2017, 06:19 PM)Lyberta Wrote: I do realize that those games are popular with intellectually disabled people who will happily run malware in order to get their fix. I may be mentally disabled but not intellectually disabled.

Anyway, I see that the word vanilla draws strong opinions. I guess I will stop arguing about vanilla stuff.

Intellectually dishonestly is worse than inability.  Your posts hurt to read and I don't even disagree with you on all points.  It's not abrasive tone or the points you support, just how you dance around and deflect opposing viewpoints.

Insanely high skill ceiling and an obvious skill progression is the appeal of AFPS for many.  Additional game modes are fine but talk of casualizing Xonotic is such a common topic that it deserves to be addressed.  You talk about motivation being key to your contributions in another thread.  You have to apply that same mindset to games like this, and even the relatively easy games you mentioned itt, to really enjoy them.  You won't know what the sun looks like until you step out of the cave. 

I don't think vanilla players are opposed to new modes but we are opposed to being thrown under the bus to improve player retention rates.  Shallow games are a dime a dozen.  No need to take cues from games designed to be replaced in a year.
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#59
(08-31-2017, 06:19 PM)Lyberta Wrote: Xonotic is the only game that I know of that has this feature. It is extremely obscure and gives a lot of advantage to skilled players. As a result, it is used to crush newbies and should be restricted for their sake.
How am I given an advantage by being told the position of weapons I already know the position of? That doesn't even make sense. It's clearly there to help new players become acclimated to the map. The fact that you are talking about the "correct" direction for the game for the sake of new players and dont seem to understand this is deeply concerning

Quote:Lyberta

It is the hardest. Players move very fast, it's extremely hard to hit them. Therefore, I use shotgun and explosive weapons since they don't have this requirement.
It is significantly easier than hitting someone directly with a projectile of nearly any speed. It also doesn't require tracking the player. Komier likes to "tripwire" aim, in that he places his crosshair where he expects his target to be, and then clicks when they pass by his crosshair.


Quote:Lyberta

If it's FOSS, it would totally become my most played game.
Would you be willing to accept that this is somewhat detached from the priorities of the average user? Again, most people don't care if a game is FOSS or not


Quote:Lyberta

I have played it for about 2 hours and couldn't frag anyone. I've quit and have never returned.
Sounds like a personal issue. The game is designed to hand you frags on the proverbial silver platter


Quote:Lyberta

It has coop mode with easy and normal settings which are accessible.
As I stated before, that's not an accurate comparison to make. Easy and normal Xonotic bots are also accessible, but you're comparing your output vs bots to your output vs dedicated duel players. Not only is that nonsensical, but it's entirely dishonest


Quote:Lyberta

Ah I see, you stick to the word "vanilla". I guess I'm gonna make another thread without that word.

Ultimately the issue of bringing in new players and having them play the game is going to involve dealing with the base game, AKA Vanilla. Cvars dont help newbies. There are a handful of NA servers right now, and if one of them ran the aforementioned cvars, then people would be even more lost when they swapped to other servers. This leads to all their enjoyment being dependent on the output and community of just one server. It's quite easy for a single server to get toppled, either due to mismanagement or players deciding to move elsewhere. Outside of people who understand what the cvars are doing the work for them, new players will likely never even recognize that such options exist

Quote:Lyberta

Only OpenArena replaced the assets and it's not very good. If replacing assets was easy, we would see a lot of FOSS Quake-based games.
MFArena, OpenArena, Warsow, Nex/Xonotic, Trem/Unvanquished, Smokin' Guns off a quick search. How many FOSS, MP FPS' do you expect to see exactly? And how are they mean to survive without any of them having any real visibility?


Quote:Lyberta

The main issue with Red Eclipse is that the main developer is extremely retarded and malicious. He banned source code mods in his master server and demands that server owners give privileges higher than administrator to people who lick that main developer's ass. I actually contacted Richard Stallman regarding that issue and he replies that "it is going too far". Also the engine is horrible and does everything client-side. You can fly around the map, kill players through the whole map and server will happily trust you.
I dont think your average player cares about what Stallman thinks. Client side issues are something they'd find out about later, and I rarely if ever see people even bring it up in the first place.
So in the end, you didnt really address my point. The average user is not a server owner, modder, or a Stallman diehard, and yet they still dont play Red Eclipse



Quote:Lyberta

I do realize that those games are popular with intellectually disabled people who will happily run malware in order to get their fix. I may be mentally disabled but not intellectually disabled.
So how did you play those games online without touching any closed environments? Just curious
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#60
(08-31-2017, 08:13 PM)mini Wrote: I don't think vanilla players are opposed to new modes but we are opposed to being thrown under the bus to improve player retention rates.  Shallow games are a dime a dozen.  No need to take cues from games designed to be replaced in a year.

Never in the thread anyone suggested changing anything in default settings. Nobody throws you under a bus. I even campaigned for the right of akimbo servers to exist. Personally, I think those servers have poor gameplay and due to the bugs of Xonotic break the client a bit. I don't play on those servers but I want them to exist and be visible if the bugs will be fixed. Even if default settings of Xonotic suck in my opinion, I would never vote for them to be removed completely.

(08-31-2017, 08:24 PM)Beemann Wrote: This leads to all their enjoyment being dependent on the output and community of just one server.

Oh, you mean Jeff server? If we put copyright infringement aside, Jeff has the best gameplay that is now available on the player list. Vanilla servers are empty while Akimbo, Instagib and Jeff frequently have players.

(08-31-2017, 08:24 PM)Beemann Wrote: MFArena, OpenArena, Warsow, Nex/Xonotic, Trem/Unvanquished, Smokin' Guns off a quick search. How many FOSS, MP FPS' do you expect to see exactly? And how are they mean to survive without any of them having any real visibility?

Let's see:
  • MFArena - can't download it from Mega. No repository link.
  • OpenArena - yes, free.
  • Warsow - proprietary assets.
  • Tremulous - I think it was free. Dead, official site doesn't respond.
  • Unvanquished - proprietary shaders from ShaderLab. Potential copyright infringement.
  • Smokin's Guns - proprietary assets.

In a nutshell, only Nexuiz, Xonotic and OpenArena qualify.

(08-31-2017, 08:24 PM)Beemann Wrote: So how did you play those games online without touching any closed environments? Just curious

I wasn't always a FOSS person. I played a lot of proprietary games and had more than 100 games on my Steam account. I have spent years of my life making custom maps and server plugins for Team Fortress 2. But then Valve ruined it with unlockable items and microtransactions. I was furious, I wanted to know why they are ruining my life. So I carefully read TF2 EULA and Steam Subscriber Agreement and was shocked to understand that I have no rights. I was a total slave of Valve.

And so I started to look for alternatives and found Richard Stallman and Free Software Foundation. It was exactly what I was looking for. "Freedom to study the source code and modify it", "Freedom to share modified versions". Exactly, it all should be by default. All software should be free.

And so I was determined to delete all proprietary software from my computer. Back then about 85% of programs on my computer were proprietary. It took me 3 years to delete all my Steam games and Steam itself and another year to Install GNU/Linux and delete Windows. But I'm not looking back.
?️‍? <- that should be a rainbow flag emoji.
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#61
(09-02-2017, 06:55 AM)Lyberta Wrote: Never in the thread anyone suggested changing anything in default settings. Nobody throws you under a bus. I even campaigned for the right of akimbo servers to exist. Personally, I think those servers have poor gameplay and due to the bugs of Xonotic break the client a bit. I don't play on those servers but I want them to exist and be visible if the bugs will be fixed. Even if default settings of Xonotic suck in my opinion, I would never vote for them to be removed completely.
The thread is about baseline Xonotic. The baseline of a game is meant to prepare people for what the main gamemodes are or just be the base gamemode. The main gamemodes are not mods, they are not special niche modes, they are the primary intended gameplay experience. Xonotic is not designed around Akimbo, Insta, Vehicle or Overkill, it is designed around Vanilla. Even the new proposed "default" is basically Vanilla, but dumbed down, and the argument is that it is dumbed down in a way that doesn't actually help people move on to the "main" modes, but rather just encourages the formation of yet another faction in an already split playerbase. You don't teach people how to use things with cvars they dont know about and by removing  or crippling the very mechanics they don't know.

If you're keen on helping newbies get into the game, there are 3 things that basically every modern game does:
1. Tutorials: New users need to be taken through a tutorial flow (that they can leave) that will teach them the primary mechanics of the game: movement, shooting and items.
2. Social integration features: Basically every game now either shunts you into a matchmaker, or has a lobby chat, or both. There are very few games nowadays that force a new player to enter a community without assistance, and enforce the use of 3rd party applications for those tasks. There are multiple ways to do this, and I'm not sure of the feasibility of all of them, but a lot of players from our thread (the one that shunted vanilla from least played to most for a little while in NA last year, and drastically improved NA's numbers overall for some time after) just ended up lurking dpmaster or would hop on at random times and then leave. Most of them will not use IRC, and we had next to no success with Discord (which I'm not a tremendously huge fan of anyway).
3. Initial settings that make sense: Some examples would be- Bindings for weapons should be shown in the UI by default. Weapon binds shouldn't force someone to be a solid piano player to get any use out of them (I know there's been debate about priorities and preferences, but honestly any binding that has keys around WASD get used instead of 1-0 is going to be a massive QOL improvement for the majority of new players. It doesn't have to work 100%. It just has to be functional beyond the range of the current binds, which are efficient for closer to 0% of players). The expectation can still be that they will edit keys, but the expectation from a new player is that the default binds work for human hands, and pressing 9 for a weapon on a default WASD bind is stupid.
There's also an emphasis on newer games having "unlockable" content. Some of them tie that stuff behind MTX, for sure, but I think there's definitely room to meter out some optional cosmetic content, and attach it to some accomplishment (beat SP/finish tutorials, complete duels, cap flags, get x score in tdm/ctf/what have you). This way newer players get a reward that isn't winning against experienced players on their first day. They can feel a sense of accomplishment because the game has informed them that they've passed a particular milestone, and then they can show off that accomplishment to other players. Most games use stuff like that to get people to spend more money, or to lock them in a leveling skinner box, but I definitely think we can use it in a healthier way to promote growth and more playtime.

Quote:Lyberta

Oh, you mean Jeff server? If we put copyright infringement aside, Jeff has the best gameplay that is now available on the player list. Vanilla servers are empty while Akimbo, Instagib and Jeff frequently have players.
So based on the existence of those servers, why isn't xonotic a success? They're even some of the first servers new players find
Could it be that *gasp* simplifying gameplay and adding gimmicks does not magically summon a playerbase overnight, and that my previous statements regarding onboarding and visibility are the main issue?


Quote:Lyberta


Let's see:
  • MFArena - can't download it from Mega. No repository link.
  • OpenArena - yes, free.
  • Warsow - proprietary assets.
  • Tremulous - I think it was free. Dead, official site doesn't respond.
  • Unvanquished - proprietary shaders from ShaderLab. Potential copyright infringement.
  • Smokin's Guns - proprietary assets.
100% of those assets don't come from the Quake game they're based on. The point isnt that all assets are replaced, just that many were. Further, the current population of a game is irrelevant when considering the possibility of asset replacement. We're talking about developing games, not who plays them


Quote:Lyberta

I was a total slave of Valve. 
Let's not move into hysterics here. You engaged in a shitty contract that you were free to leave at any point in time. This is not the same thing as being an actual slave

Further, referring to other people as inferior or deficient because they (primarily a non-coding crowd) do not value software modification as much as you do comes across as ridiculously smug. It's fine that you have your priorities, but you seem to be extending those priorities to everyone else. That is not a sound decision to make regarding the success of Xonotic. You don't get to use player population as a success metric (insta vs Vanilla), and then discount games that are popular on the basis of them not being FOSS (CoD, DotA, CS, etc.) which, if you'll recall, is the central point behind this particular branch of the discussion

It would also be nice if you didn't just drop arguments you've lost, and instead modified your core statements to address the fact that you were incorrect. When I pointed out that co-op to competitive multiplayer is an apples to oranges comparison for difficulty, that point was simply forgotten in the next post. When I pointed out that there are quite a few GPL licensed Quake-based games, it became a purity test of how many assets they have that are or are not proprietary (where 1 = impure and unworkable), and/or how many players the game has. When I point out that the thread is about replacing vanilla as the default mode for new players, that point gets forgotten until you can make it against mini. Either there's a severe misunderstanding here, or you're not being especially honest
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#62
(09-02-2017, 01:39 PM)Beemann Wrote: but rather just encourages the formation of yet another faction in an already split playerbase.

Yes, vanilla is there for a long time and it's not popular and will never be popular. I want to create formation of casual players that I'm already a part of.

(09-02-2017, 01:39 PM)Beemann Wrote: 2. Social integration features: Basically every game now either shunts you into a matchmaker, or has a lobby chat, or both.

The problem with matchmaking as it will need to introduce the server rating which is not a trivial task.

(09-02-2017, 01:39 PM)Beemann Wrote: [size=small]There's also an emphasis on newer games having "unlockable" content.

If it's not a tutorial content, I'm totally against this.

(09-02-2017, 01:39 PM)Beemann Wrote: [size=small]Let's not move into hysterics here. You engaged in a shitty contract that you were free to leave at any point in time. This is not the same thing as being an actual slave

Sure, legally I wasn't a slave, but roughly 30% of my life was sitting in Source SDK with dedicated server open and coding something. A lot of my life depended on Valve.

(09-02-2017, 01:39 PM)Beemann Wrote: Further, referring to other people as inferior or deficient because they (primarily a non-coding crowd) do not value software modification as much as you do comes across as ridiculously smug.

Well, as my experience with life goes, I see that almost all of my problems and problems of humanity in general are because of stupid people. Without stupid people we wouldn't have such horrible things as religion, capitalism, copyright, patents, trademarks, homophobia, transphobia, xenophobia, etc.

(09-02-2017, 01:39 PM)Beemann Wrote: You don't get to use player population as a success metric (insta vs Vanilla), and then discount games that are popular on the basis of them not being FOSS (CoD, DotA, CS, etc.) which, if you'll recall, is the central point behind this particular branch of the discussion

I didn't discount them, some of those games may be more accessible. I just don't know what stuff Xonotic can borrow from them (aside from selecting the weapons you spawn with).

(09-02-2017, 01:39 PM)Beemann Wrote: [size=small]It would also be nice if you didn't just drop arguments you've lost, and instead modified your core statements to address the fact that you were incorrect.

The only proof will be when vanilla will become popular. I don't think this will ever happen.

(09-02-2017, 01:39 PM)Beemann Wrote: When I pointed out that co-op to competitive multiplayer is an apples to oranges comparison for difficulty, that point was simply forgotten in the next post.

Co-op is a competitive multiplayer against bots. It can be harder than against humans but usually have an option to set it to lower difficulty.

(09-02-2017, 01:39 PM)Beemann Wrote: When I pointed out that there are quite a few GPL licensed Quake-based games, it became a purity test of how many assets they have that are or are not proprietary (where 1 = impure and unworkable), and/or how many players the game has.

Because a game with free code and proprietary assets is of no use for developers. We need freedom to mod freely. This discussion started because I've said that Xonotic is the best game when it comes to mods.

(09-02-2017, 01:39 PM)Beemann Wrote: When I point out that the thread is about replacing vanilla as the default mode for new players, that point gets forgotten until you can make it against mini.

I went back and re-read the first post. It doesn't say that. Please don't invent words out of thin air.
?️‍? <- that should be a rainbow flag emoji.
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#63
For the record, the standard "vanilla" gameplay has at many points in time been just as popular (if not more so) than any of the custom mods (including instagib), even in the history of Xonotic (let alone Nexuiz, which had servers like HoCTF full almost 24/7).
The American community even jumps between the instagib and vanilla servers quite frequently, it all depends on which server populates first, which brings me to the reason servers like Jeff appear to be successful;

Servers only become active if one person joins to begin with, and Jeff himself is always on his server tweaking things or just playing around. This provides a constant marker in the server list showing that his server is active, bringing in more players. They know that's where to go to find a crowd, so it stays popular.
This used to be the case for most popular servers, but over time, the key players and the server admins have stopped caring for their servers (who knows, maybe they don't enjoy playing there anymore, or feel like they can't make any more changes to their server without heavy criticism?).
Whatever the case, these servers no longer show up as active (and in most cases, don't even show up in the list at all if hidden servers are unchecked), so they die.

Combine that with the lack of a stream of players (still no volunteers for PR), and that's how we got to where we are now; A ghost town outside of servers like Jeff's, where the ability to keep modifying his servers whenever he wants has kept him interested enough to stay active.



TL;DR: Other servers are getting stale because the admins feel like they can't change anything, or have reached a state where they believe the server is "finished" (or have simply lost the time to be able to keep it going).
[Image: 230.png]
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#64
There's also ping Nazis. Some people will just not play or complain non stop on a sever with say has 70-90+ ping > so they congregate on the closest low ping server.  With the EU base being so much bigger and the servers having way shorter distance to players VS North America they'll always be more populated. The ping is huge as when I moved my CRA server from OVH Paris to OVH Montreal the ping for most EU players went up about 20ms to say 90 but that was enough to make them revolt and here I am still playing 120ms on my own server from in the same country.

As for Vanilla, when I started in late 2012 I believe Vanilla was the most popular at the time besides ESK minsta, Mon Vehicles (which was vanilla wapons) and Die Tunichtguten (minsta with weird player models) and was it the  Regulars  DCC too I think.

With out a bigger player base you can't get more players split up between servers/game modes, with out players on those servers you can't get a bigger player base from those that come in and see empty server list.
[MoFo] Servers - North America - Hosted in Kansas USA - Admin DeadDred [MoFo]
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#65
Like Mario said, vanilla used to be quite popular.

When I started to play in 2011 / 2012, the DCC vanilla servers were always active, even the CTF server. I spent countless hours playing Xonotic on these servers. There also used to be a DCC server for beginners, where high-skilled players were forced to spectate (I don't remember if it was automated, or if an admin did it manually).
DCC servers still exist but are less active nowadays.

However, the [WTWRP]Deathmatch vanilla server is very active, right now it's even more popular than Jeff's servers according to XonStats: http://stats.xonotic.org/topservers

Vanilla has the potential to gain some popularity again, it may need some adjustments but I don't think a "casual vanilla balance" is the solution. Actually, it may even kill "pure" vanilla if casual players get too accustomed to a dumbed-down balance, then become too afraid to play with default settings. The gap between casual and experimented players may become even larger.
Stats | Maps: CTF: disarray, vinegar, metro DM: labyrinth Duel: cucumber, quark.
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#66
(09-02-2017, 05:01 PM)Lyberta Wrote: Yes, vanilla is there for a long time and it's not popular and will never be popular. I want to create formation of casual players that I'm already a part of.
Oddly, the more casual modes aren't especially popular either. Maybe that's because Xonotic is not a particularly popular game

Quote:Lyberta

The problem with matchmaking as it will need to introduce the server rating which is not a trivial task.
Which is why I'm primarily arguing for social features, and not a matchmaker. Matchmakers are there to supplant social features. A new player doesnt have to make friends because the matchmaker will find stand-ins for friends. What the game needs is a lobby and a list of current/upcoming events, if such a thing is feasible

Quote:Lyberta

If it's not a tutorial content, I'm totally against this.
I'm not especially concerned about what you've written on your FOSS purity blog. What I am concerned about is what works best for new players coming into Xonotic.
 
Quote:Lyberta

Sure, legally I wasn't a slave, but roughly 30% of my life was sitting in Source SDK with dedicated server open and coding something. A lot of my life depended on Valve.
By any reaosnable definition you were not a slave. Your willingness to contribute to the total content of a product does not make you a slave


Quote:Lyberta

Well, as my experience with life goes...
I'm going to leave the political shit out of this, because it's tremendously off-topic, and I'm going to assume this is you doubling down on pointless elitisim


Quote:Lyberta

I didn't discount them, some of those games may be more accessible. I just don't know what stuff Xonotic can borrow from them (aside from selecting the weapons you spawn with).
I would call the suggestion that anyone who plays those games is an idiot (when it's pointed out that despite their "difficulty" they're some of the most popular games available) is remarkably dismissive of the games in question. What's more, I dont get the sense that you're really trying to zero in on a common denominator here. DotA features hefty amounts of map control and power accumulation. CS features power accumulation. Neither is suffering as a result. What they do have, however, is better onboarding. They are better at bringing people in and keeping them there than Xonotic is. There is more stuff for a new player to work towards, with a visible result. They are not dumped into a server browser with the option of playing a botmatch single player off first boot


Quote:Lyberta

The only proof will be when vanilla will become popular. I don't think this will ever happen.
Is it bothersome for you to not simply speak in non-sequitur?


Quote:Lyberta

Co-op is a competitive multiplayer against bots. It can be harder than against humans but usually have an option to set it to lower difficulty.
Bots cannot do what people do in real time games. Co-op is inherently (as the name suggests) co-operative, rather than competitive. Comparing easy/normal difficulty to random matches against humans is completely ridiculous. You know it's ridiculous, I know it's ridiculous, everyone in the thread knows its ridiculous. Dont double down on this. You're only going to make yourself look foolish

Quote:Lyberta
Because a game with free code and proprietary assets is of no use for developers. We need freedom to mod freely. This discussion started because I've said that Xonotic is the best game when it comes to mods.
Again, assets can be replaced, thats why they have been in the cases I mentioned, even if not all of them are non-proprietary


Quote:Lyberta

I went back and re-read the first post. It doesn't say that. Please don't invent words out of thin air.
If it isnt arguing for changing the default, then it is as relevant to new players as insta is for introducing them to the game. The point behind a newbie friendly mode is that it is easy and obvious for a new player to setup and get into. I boot Xonotic, I get the mode that works, I play that. If I need 20 cvars to play the newbie mode, it isnt a newbie mode. If I need to download a mod to play the newbie mode, it isnt a newbie mode. A newbie mode only works if a new player can come in blind, hop into a match, and get it, because most newbies will do just that. 
With that in mind, the idea that introducing players to the game by crippling portions of the core designed experience is nonsensical. There is nothing wrong with setting cvars to turn off particular mechanics you don't like, but when you say "I want this to be for new players" then you either do want those to be defaults or you do not understand the initial User Experience. There are only a handful of active servers in NA right now, and yet another separate and exclusive ruleset is only going to make the problem worse, not better
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#67
(09-03-2017, 02:28 PM)Beemann Wrote: If it isnt arguing for changing the default, then it is as relevant to new players as insta is for introducing them to the game. The point behind a newbie friendly mode is that it is easy and obvious for a new player to setup and get into. I boot Xonotic, I get the mode that works, I play that.

This config would be in the first levels of campaign and it will be in Create tab of Multiplayer along with Overkill, XPM and other.
?️‍? <- that should be a rainbow flag emoji.
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#68
(09-03-2017, 07:58 PM)Lyberta Wrote: This config would be in the first levels of campaign and it will be in Create tab of Multiplayer along with Overkill, XPM and other.
Why would you rewrite the campaign for a casual mode in a game that already has too many modes and too few players for them?
Why would you rewrite the campaign for a mode that would not teach people how the main game is played?
How many new players go to the create tab?
They're going to go to existing servers, and NA can barely support 3. At best you might have a LAN somewhere or someone like Ant who decides to host a new server, but now you're counting on them picking your new special mode, and depending on that making an excellent first impression (possibly to the same sort of crowd that primarily bounces off this game because they think it's casual trash)

You're still going to have shit onboarding (worse now, because you're introducing separate games in the SP), and you're still going to have people who jump into some of the only servers with players on them in the region and not know what's going on. Is the next step to try to convince us to stop playing Vanilla so that we don't turn new players away and give them a place to play yet another casual mode? How many iterations of this does another AFPS need to go through before we accept that more separate variants (that split the already small playerbase) isn't a functional solution?

There are already modes where people do not have to worry about pickups, where they don't have to worry about stack, where they don't worry about timers. It hasn't saved the game yet, and making another one wont do it either. It's fine if you want to play off in the corner with your own rules on your own server, but don't do this shit where you imply it's better for new/casual players to have 4-6 different modes that all cut out some degree of movement or map control with a tiny playerbase for each
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#69
(01-21-2017, 12:23 PM)martin-t Wrote: Randomize weapon pickups
This should prevent pros from going straight for the strongest guns while allowing new people to try out all weapons more easily.

Done.

(01-21-2017, 12:23 PM)martin-t Wrote: Dead players drop more/all weapons
This gives a larger reward for killing a strong player and makes weapons more accessible.

There is already Pinata and now this.

(01-21-2017, 12:23 PM)martin-t Wrote: Random/different starting weapon
I am sure this one is gonna get a lot of hate in the comments Wink

And done.
?️‍? <- that should be a rainbow flag emoji.
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