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[SUGGESTION] Making Vanilla more enjoyable for Newbies

#51
Well, my idea of casual balance is way far from vanilla, so I'm not gonna even start a discussion in this thread.
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#52
What I don't like about these so called newbie balances is that they're generally not inline with what newbies want and instead are presumptive of it. Of the proposals I've seen they seem generally intended to lower the difference between two differently skilled players, which doesn't really help. For example, there are newbies that want to learn how to play the game, but the casual-focused (i,e newbies are not necessarily casual gamers) addition of adding uncertainty / randomness throws a wrench into the process. Fundamentally, it adds more inconsistent rules that overall complicate the game.
For example, when I try coaching someone sometimes the interaction I get is explaining the different rules across balance settings because somethings aren't occuring when they normally would be.
"why can't I pick up this item" (XPM)
"why am I moving slower" (XDF w/o strafing)
Before I get handwaved as a non-newbie, a year of playing experience isn't going to change my perspective regarding RNG in PvP games. This is a fundamental concept I've had a concept of before playing Xonotic.

Overall I think it's a completely misunderstanding that fiddling with numbers on the balance cvar is going to help the situation. Especially when "newb mode" is going to add another balance set to the 2-3 existent ones.

You guys can at least start with loading screen tips that every game does nowadays. Or something that CSGO does which while loading it shows the layout of the map and a brief description of rules that may vary. That way it at least seems as if there was an in-game attempt at conveying useful information.
Xonotic exists for a long time and low player count is the proof that nobody wants to play Xonotic since it is a bad game by default.
- Lyberta, 2017
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#53
(12-15-2017, 01:01 PM)martin-t Wrote: If i kill one of the competent players, it'll barely slow him down because there are so many easy targets that he doesn't even need strong weapons or a good stack to keep getting kills fast.

From personal experience (86% winrate) every tight DM game that I've had were the ones where I died a lot, these are also typically the games that takes the longest to finish. While in the other hand, games where I die less end faster. That is simply because you can kill faster with stronger weapons and a good resource management allows you to maintain that throughout the game.
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#54
Maybe this is a weird idea, but i think the vanila version is actually good. There are two groups and none is happy. This can only mean its right in the middle. 
From my perspectiv the movement goood as you get easily into it and achieve something quickly, but on the otherhandside there is still stuff to learn.    
(12-17-2017, 09:09 AM)Smilecythe Wrote: From personal experience (86% winrate) every tight DM game that I've had were the ones where I died a lot, these are also typically the games that takes the longest to finish. While in the other hand, games where I die less end faster. That is simply because you can kill faster with stronger weapons and a good resource management allows you to maintain that throughout the game.
You know that you are a bad example and that this is a bad example. You always need to add the amount of players on the map into the equation. 
If there are many players on a big map, you can do easily a lot of damage, but its hard to get stacked up (you die more). If there many players on a small map, its just pure randomness. You can have luck and spawn near a weapon, but its more likely you will end up with just a shotgun. Gearing up can take time and there is a high chance you are not even able to gear up. This is of course the scenario where you die the most.  
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#55
Quote:You know that you are a bad example and that this is a bad example.
Am I a bad example because I'm a strong player? The claim is that you should not hunt the "strong players" because it's a waste of time, so my perspective should be sufficient. I know from my experience that letting me off the hook like that just works in my benefit. If killing me feels like a waste of time, then it's because I get my stack back too easily without a contest. In which case it's not a waste of time, but bad read on a situation.

I also know that if I simply went shotgun only without paying attention to stronger weapons/armors, I might be getting frags at a more consistent rate but I'd also be dying more frequently. That's why I invest on weapons/armors, because they allow me to get many frags at once and FASTER while messing the flow of other players.

Quote:You always need to add the amount of players on the map into the equation.
The size of the map, the amount of players or the lack of resources doesn't change the fact that the less you die, the more time you get to spend on fragging people.
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#56
The truth is the balance like most aFPS these days, is based around the hardcore players.
Casual players just do not have the ability to hit multiple nex shots in a row or combo with several weapon with the high accuracy so many of you can, it's no surprise Xonotic (which isn't alone in this either) struggles to keep players.

Just look at the weapon damage and see how hard it is for someone to frag another player, from a beginners perspective.
I mean you would expect a direct hit rocket to frag someone off the spawn, but it doesn't, crylink which should be like a close-up shotgun / flak cannon and rip through people in a similar way - doesn't, it's the same with most of the weapons.

Is it any reason that aFPS games only sustain a dwindling player base these days? If you look at all of the popular modes in Xonotic that have come and gone on public servers (Overkill for example), they were easily accessible, fun to play and weapons were particularly juicy to use. None of this applies anymore in the modern aFPS world. Reflex, QC, UT4 - all built around the 'competitive' players requirements.

Which is basically uber balanced weapons and little fun anymore for the casual gamer, there's nothing wild or exciting about them in terms of weapons. Just take a look at the original UT's sniper compared to the one in UT4. One you could even as a casual gamer get a double-kill / multi-kill maybe with a bit of luck and some aim, same with flak-cannon, shock rifle. You only need to watch footage of UT4 to see none of that exists for a casual gamer.

The same applies for practically all of the new aFPS games, they've mostly lost there sense of enjoyment and cater to the hardcore crowd / competitive players. Each one trying to create a 'competitive game', when you were a noobie you played for fun because the game was fun, all of the original FPS games from the past spawned a competitive scene - they weren't made as competitive games!!

The Xonotic vanilla mode or balance just isn't fun for majority of casual gamers. I'm sure most will disagree with me but just look at the trend with most of the new aFPS games. QL was the nearest thing to being enjoyable for a casual but even that was a watered down version of Quake 3.
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#57
(12-19-2017, 10:15 AM)kojn^ Wrote: Wall of text

Absolutely agree. For me all weapons except Vortex are extremely UP. Killing players is very hard. In my own test server I fixed it by adding random start weapons and random items where chance of spawning strength or shield is rather high. Then I enjoy one-shotting bots with strengthened rifle.

There's a reason Jeff server is so popular. Most weapons are buffed there.
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#58
@smilecythe Ok, after a recent game, I have to admit dying did slow me down quite a bit. OTOH, there were at least 2 players who attempted to time items so i didn't get H/A nearly as easily as normal (and had to time myself which i find incredibly annoying when playing to relax).

@Cortez666, @kojn^ I don't think the balance is good: http://xonotic.org/posts/2017/2016-by-the-numbers/. Mortar, vortex and RL are clearly the primary weapons and the others are underused and usually underpowered (except their niches which tend to be small rooms for crylink, hagar and electro and MG is a bad substitute for nex if you don't have nex and the enemy is far).

I also hate how the weapons are all made for close range so on any at least slightly open maps and especially in CTF, vortex it THE main weapon and if you don't have it, you have to go grab it NOW or there's no point for you going after the flag or FC.

@Smile i like your idea of 100% self damage, i think it would nicely reduce the usefulness of blaster is casual/public games. When i showed xon to friends, most had a negative reaction to blaster movement tricks.

I'd say these are the main things xon needs to fix to be accessible:
  • Default weapon binds that make weapon combos possible with WASD so players can do enough damage fast enough (currently that means mortar,vortex,RL on Q,E,C or similar and a SANE wheel switching order because it's easy to learn even though not optimal)
  • Movement tutorial (EACFreddy started work on it in the maps repo so to everyone who can stand radiant for more than 5 minutes: *don't* start yet another unfinished one, help him instead)
  • Item jitter for megas (when i see a player timing, i do it too and i know how hard it's for me to kill them let alone a newbie) - i think 10 s would be enough for avg. 5 s waiting time. You can still time and get a benefit but it's not such a massive advantage.
  • Health/armor caps (probably 150/150). There are 25h everywhere and I often get up to 200 with them, it's just too much. This also needs a HUD indicator to make it clear what's happening and that it's possible to go above with the right items. The health bar in general needs to show the outline so players don't think 100 is the max, the part above the limit could be slightly greyed out or something.

@Antares* after playing vanilla a bit more i see why you think randomness is a bad idea but i really insist we should try item jitter in casual balance. The h/a difference between strong and weak players is just too much and they can't get a kill without random luck.
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#59
Quote:I also hate how the weapons are all made for close range so on any at least slightly open maps and especially in CTF, vortex it THE main weapon and if you don't have it, you have to go grab it NOW or there's no point for you going after the flag or FC.

You are not going to change the situation with Vortex and "close range" projectiles based weapons on wide open maps by fiddling with balance cvars. It is basically a challenge to deal with the travel time on those maps, and there are less walls and constrained spaces to splash on. Meanwhile less or no interrupted lines of sight and not having to deal with a traveling projectile makes Vortex a logical choice over much others.
The game simply needs more CTF maps that have a balance between corridors (or general areas where projectiles are viable) and strong lines of sight for hitscan weaponry. A lot of the CTF maps are currently strongly biased for the latter.

Quote:@Antares* after playing vanilla a bit more i see why you think randomness is a bad idea but i really insist we should try item jitter in casual balance. The h/a difference between strong and weak players is just too much and they can't get a kill without random luck.
I think both are bad ideas despite your good intentions. You are simply adding uncertainty to the game that didn't exist before in both cases.
Ultimately adding different rulesets is adding to the learning curve in its own way.
That I think you should stop conflating new players with casuals.
Xonotic exists for a long time and low player count is the proof that nobody wants to play Xonotic since it is a bad game by default.
- Lyberta, 2017
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#60
(12-21-2017, 06:00 AM)Antares* Wrote: That I think you should stop conflating new players with casuals.

But 90% of new players are casuals. It's 2017, pros were new players in 1990s.
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#61
(12-21-2017, 06:00 AM)Antares* Wrote:
Quote:I also hate how the weapons are all made for close range so on any at least slightly open maps and especially in CTF, vortex it THE main weapon and if you don't have it, you have to go grab it NOW or there's no point for you going after the flag or FC.

You are not going to change the situation with Vortex and "close range" projectiles based weapons on wide open maps by fiddling with balance cvars. It is basically a challenge to deal with the travel time on those maps, and there are less walls and constrained spaces to splash on. Meanwhile less or no interrupted lines of sight and not having to deal with a traveling projectile makes Vortex a logical choice over much others.
The game simply needs more CTF maps that have a balance between corridors (or general areas where projectiles are viable) and strong lines of sight for hitscan weaponry. A lot of the CTF maps are currently strongly biased for the latter.

Not with the current cvars but we could implement additional behaviors for certain weapons:
  • Hagar nad RL rockets could accelerate so they're about the same at close range but reach farther places faster than now. (There might already be code for this now)
  • Hagar rockets could gently steer towards enemies. This could work against (vortex) campers too since you could be partially/completely hidden while shooting at them.
  • Electro primary could start discharging bolts of lightning after certain distance.
  • Arc (if/when it replaces MG) could fire a bolt into the wall/enemy and then arc between the gun and the bolt.
  • There was also a suggestion vortex shots could pass though enemies at close range but stay inside them at longer ranges, then explode. Then vortex could be nerfed at close range while staying the same at long so it's not such a superweapon as now.

(12-21-2017, 06:00 AM)Antares* Wrote:
Quote:@Antares* after playing vanilla a bit more i see why you think randomness is a bad idea but i really insist we should try item jitter in casual balance. The h/a difference between strong and weak players is just too much and they can't get a kill without random luck.
I think both are bad ideas despite your good intentions. You are simply adding uncertainty to the game that didn't exist before in both cases.
Ultimately adding different rulesets is adding to the learning curve in its own way.
That I think you should stop conflating new players with casuals.

Fair point but as Lyberta said, most players now are newbie casuals and they have the most trouble getting used to AFPSes from other games (which imho usually are TFPSes). Casuals (new or experienced) would forever stay in vanilla casual. Getting pros coming from other games interested in xon is then only a matter of clearly advertising there is a pro balance (XPM) and it's differences. Having different limits in casual and XPM would not be an issue since it would be visually shown in the HUD. Jitter in casual shouldn't annoy pros because they should be playing XPM and it shouldn't confuse casuals since they never play XPM and probably don't care about items that much either.

In general is am in favor of few clearly defined differeces between XPM and casual rather than minor tweaks to many cvars but casual should not be defined by the whims of duel players.
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#62
There's a reason why Quad/Strength/Amplifier powerups exists across all arenaFPS: when you pick it up, your weapons go nuclear. Powerup contests create exciting and hectic situations for DM and Xonotic makes even that easier for you by printing a text/location on your screen when it's about to spawn.
If all weapons were buffed to the max, there would be nothing exciting in DM. It would just be a contest of who spams the strongest weapon the most.

@Lyberta:

Quote:There's a reason Jeff server is so popular. Most weapons are buffed there.
Then what's the reason for vanilla servers being just about as popular? That's not a very strong point because the top populated servers consists of both Jeff and Vanilla servers. Currently Jeff's vehicle CTF is more popular than WTWRP DM, and WTWRP DM is more popular than Jeff's DM. It might be easier to take your points seriously if you disclosed the facts the way they are.
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#63
Quote:Fair point but as Lyberta said, most players now are newbie casuals and they have the most trouble getting used to AFPSes from other games (which imho usually are TFPSes). Casuals (new or experienced) would forever stay in vanilla casual. Getting pros coming from other games interested in xon is then only a matter of clearly advertising there is a pro balance (XPM) and it's differences. Having different limits in casual and XPM would not be an issue since it would be visually shown in the HUD. Jitter in casual shouldn't annoy pros because they should be playing XPM and it shouldn't confuse casuals since they never play XPM and probably don't care about items that much either.

In general is am in favor of few clearly defined differeces between XPM and casual rather than minor tweaks to many cvars but casual should not be defined by the whims of duel players.

Many times I start a conversation with random players, they don't have a clear idea of how to progress in skill (it is still their goal). For example, they play free-for-all, not because they want a casual gaming experience, but because they think it will help them improve in skill. They are not necessarily conscious about the purposes, intents, nor differences of various game balance sets. And some believe the only skill to learn in the game is aiming at high speeds.

Additionally when I started playing the game last year, it wasn't in my interests to play a party game. I played with standard settings because it was the only thing I was aware of at the time. I only became aware of XPM/XDF/etc because I hosted a server and added various game modes for variety, incidentally attracted defraggers and duelists, and got feedback that the server settings were not of the convention for the respective game modes I tried to add for the purposes of variety.
As a new player or casual by your metrics, starting the game in 2016, I think these proposals are counterintuitive. The game is still rather obtuse about its features as it ever was if your solutions are simply to add more alternative .cfg's to the growing list.

I see now in server.cfg (while in 0.8.1 it was nonexistent) that the only mod/balance that requires "exec" that is remotely indicated of is Overkill.

Quote: Hagar rockets could gently steer towards enemies. This could work against (vortex) campers too since you could be partially/completely hidden while shooting at them.
You essentially just added bullet magnetism. Even outside of AFPS you will see players complain or gawk about it.
Even with those new behaviors you add balancing concerns and "whether or not it helps" ambiguity when the simple solution would be to make better designed maps.

Particularly these proposals have my concern because talking to people outside of Xonotic [Forums/IRC] entirely (for example, I found someone who tried out Xonotic in an MMO), there are wildly different negative opinions formed about their completely different playing experiences even though the game ultimately had what they were looking for.
Xonotic exists for a long time and low player count is the proof that nobody wants to play Xonotic since it is a bad game by default.
- Lyberta, 2017
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#64
I've been playing vanilla for 3 weeks and I'm doing just fine so I don't know what you guys are talking about when you're saying that this game is not newbie friendly =)
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#65
(12-21-2017, 10:58 AM)Smilecythe Wrote: Then what's the reason for vanilla servers being just about as popular? That's not a very strong point because the top populated servers consists of both Jeff and Vanilla servers. Currently Jeff's vehicle CTF is more popular than WTWRP DM, and WTWRP DM is more popular than Jeff's DM. It might be easier to take your points seriously if you disclosed the facts the way they are.

I was mostly talking about Jeff's CTF server. Hmm, that rise of WTWRP DM seems to be new. I guess my perception was a bit skewed since I almost never join DM servers.
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#66
I think I said it before: Most people don't join a server because of its balance, they join servers that already have people on them. Jeff was just active on his server.
"Populated" does not neccessarily mean "popular" or "well balanced".
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#67
(12-22-2017, 08:18 AM)Freddy Wrote: I think I said it before: Most people don't join a server because of its balance, they join servers that already have people on them. Jeff was just active on his server.
"Populated" does not neccessarily mean "popular" or "well balanced".

If I'm bored, I sometimes join Jeff server and vote for zombies. It's actually pretty fun for a few minutes, after that other people join and "proper" game begins.

There's a note server admins should take: if you want popularity, add some bots or something votable so player can mess around while alone.
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#68
Hi,
disclosure:
   - I consider myself a casual player (partially self-enforced, like I will not allow myself to remap weapons from 0-9).
   - I play almost exclusively on Jeff's vehicle warfare   

my problems with vanilla games and possible suggestions:

  - DM with 8 players on duel map (Fuse) turns into mindless game where people just run around with shotguns. 
I think that reasonable solution for this is to set max player count for maps and if game ends with more player, don't include such maps into next map selection. I know that this may sound like a big change, but if the voting for the maps has no restrictions, this may actually change very little, because new player's probably won't vote for maps they don't know and if 8 experienced players wants to have DM on fuse, for some reason (6 wants to spectate?) then can just vote for it. Sure its not perfect but i also don't think it will break much. (I also know that it may be near impossible to implement, because of the shear number of custom maps) 
 
  - (personal opinion)Maps that are just couple of platforms and one big fall killzone are just casual unfriendly because of all the suicides and pushing. Some may say that casual player can easily frag by pushing someone out with blaster, that does not happen anyone who is semi-competent can recover in the air from 1-2 blaster shots, therefore its even more demoralizing, eg. when I shot someone with the blaster he/she just lands back, but when someone shots me I'm out.
Obvious solution.

  -  weapon pickups with long recharge time  are imho stupid because it may actually discourage players from looking for weapons, sure every semi-competent player can efficiently use all the weapons (and will get them anyway), but lets assume that some casual player:
  - just does not want to use devastator, because its rockets are so slow you can literally outrun them.
  - consider s electro one big gimmick
  - does not quite get crylic
  - and machinegun makes him/her think its starting weapon in some RPG based on its damage.
(again just a made up scenario, not a weapon rant (I can rant about weapons if you want))
Imho such player is absolutely OK.
so with long recharge after pickup he/she knows, that getting his favorite mortar and voxel will be near impossible because 2/3 times she/he gets to pickup its not available, so why risk your life for 1/3 chance to get the weapon that you want, when you can just try to shot people with shotgun and hope they die and drop that weapon, may even be faster, sure you die 2/3 times but who cares same as your chance to get the pickup only less boring than running.
Obvious solution. Sure people will get weapons more easily and it will be impossible to starve people of weapons, but outside of duel I don't really see that as important strategy. 
 
ok I have more, but  I have no idea if this post is not just one big irrelevant spam.

also this is repost of https://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.ph...4#pid82534, because I mistaken it with the more current thread about this sort of topic, sorry about that.
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#69
(01-09-2018, 02:25 PM)miki45 Wrote: Hi,
disclosure:
   - I consider myself a casual player (partially self-enforced, like I will not allow myself to remap weapons from 0-9).
   - I play almost exclusively on Jeff's vehicle warfare   

my problems with vanilla games and possible suggestions:

  - DM with 8 players on duel map (Fuse) turns into mindless game where people just run around with shotguns. 
I think that reasonable solution for this is to set max player count for maps and if game ends with more player, don't include such maps into next map selection. I know that this may sound like a big change, but if the voting for the maps has no restrictions, this may actually change very little, because new player's probably won't vote for maps they don't know and if 8 experienced players wants to have DM on fuse, for some reason (6 wants to spectate?) then can just vote for it. Sure its not perfect but i also don't think it will break much. (I also know that it may be near impossible to implement, because of the shear number of custom maps) 
 
  - (personal opinion)Maps that are just couple of platforms and one big fall killzone are just casual unfriendly because of all the suicides and pushing. Some may say that casual player can easily frag by pushing someone out with blaster, that does not happen anyone who is semi-competent can recover in the air from 1-2 blaster shots, therefore its even more demoralizing, eg. when I shot someone with the blaster he/she just lands back, but when someone shots me I'm out.
Obvious solution.

  -  weapon pickups with long recharge time  are imho stupid because it may actually discourage players from looking for weapons, sure every semi-competent player can efficiently use all the weapons (and will get them anyway), but lets assume that some casual player:
  - just does not want to use devastator, because its rockets are so slow you can literally outrun them.
  - consider s electro one big gimmick
  - does not quite get crylic
  - and machinegun makes him/her think its starting weapon in some RPG based on its damage.
(again just a made up scenario, not a weapon rant (I can rant about weapons if you want))
Imho such player is absolutely OK.
so with long recharge after pickup he/she knows, that getting his favorite mortar and voxel will be near impossible because 2/3 times she/he gets to pickup its not available, so why risk your life for 1/3 chance to get the weapon that you want, when you can just try to shot people with shotgun and hope they die and drop that weapon, may even be faster, sure you die 2/3 times but who cares same as your chance to get the pickup only less boring than running.
Obvious solution. Sure people will get weapons more easily and it will be impossible to starve people of weapons, but outside of duel I don't really see that as important strategy. 
 
ok I have more, but  I have no idea if this post is not just one big irrelevant spam.

also this is repost of https://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.ph...4#pid82534, because I mistaken it with the more current thread about this sort of topic, sorry about that.

You're quite right about maximum capacities not being respected in usual public vanilla ffa games. That is, when public ffa games happen on my server I have to explicitly tell everyone which map is big enough for the current party of players and hope they all vote for it in time. Additionally I've seen an issue like this in one of Xonotic's repo's- to implement something with regards to player capacities per map.

I disagree with your scenario of the weapons however. Running at someone with a shotgun will only work for those overcrowded DM matches. In many other scenarios without the benefit of high player density in an area and shortage of health resources, it is essentially a death wish to charge in with a shotgun unless you know what you're doing, i.e experience, with the melee+shot combo.
Xonotic exists for a long time and low player count is the proof that nobody wants to play Xonotic since it is a bad game by default.
- Lyberta, 2017
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#70
I also agree about the map capacities. It would be nice if we had a  recommendation system wherein only maps suitable for the number of players connected were displayed for voting. 8 players on fuse wouldn't be recommended, obviously. It's mayhem. On the other hand, it's also somewhat fun to see how many shots you can fire before dying in a mass of confusion. It doesn't always have to be a chess-like strategic match. Smile

As for weapons, you will see a large distinction in performance between players who know how to use weapons and those who don't. There are of course some general purpose weapons that everyone tends to rely upon (vortex, devastator, mortar), but those will only get you so far versus someone who knows the right situations/places for the other weapons. Some examples:

- The area near the mortar on stormkeep forms a perfect bathtub for electro balls and the corresponding combo.
- The open window to the mega health on finalrage is great for rushing in with a loaded hagar secondary.
- The MG serves well for depleting the remaining health of an already chewed-up enemy.
- Crylink primary hits will slow down flag carriers pretty effectively on the lower corridor of Dance.
- That oh-so-slow devastator's guidance can be used to hit otherwise difficult to reach spots (e.g. hitting the two-25 HP area on hub from the lower floor). Doing so gives you the chance of dealing a huge amount of damage while affording you protection at the same time, provided you've positioned yourself well enough.

To put it plainly: people who are put off by recharge/reload or even finding weapons are only depleting themselves of options to win fights. They can choose to do so, but at their peril!
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#71
(01-09-2018, 07:58 PM)Antibody Wrote: people who are put off by recharge/reload or even finding weapons are only depleting themselves of options to win fights.

Not really, the net effect is empty servers.
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#72
(01-10-2018, 01:01 AM)Lyberta Wrote:
(01-09-2018, 07:58 PM)Antibody Wrote: people who are put off by recharge/reload or even finding weapons are only depleting themselves of options to win fights.

Not really, the net effect is empty servers.

Of course they are depleting themselves of options to win fights.
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#73
My point with the long recharge of weapons was, that on Jeff's vehicle warfare you can find maps with normal recharge time and almost instant recharge and I personally do not notice any difference in my ability to get weapons on these maps, therefore I personally think that recharge time has no real impact on semi-competent players getting weapons. Which puts in on my list of things that can be adjusted to help new players without any real impact on the game.


A bit offtopic but to me this is similar to strafe jumping, once you know how to do it, its literally pressing 2 keys and moving mouse in pretty constant manner. you just get it into your muscle memory and don't even know, that you are doing it (for normal gaming purposes, not race). But for new players its a barrier. And I consider it a stupid barrier (that was originally undocumented feature), because if you just give everyone solid speed by bunnyhoping as xonotic does its literally the same result. (my opinion after playing both xon and warsow).
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#74
(01-10-2018, 06:13 AM)miki45 Wrote: My point with the long recharge of weapons was, that on Jeff's vehicle warfare you can find maps with normal recharge time and almost instant recharge and I personally do not notice any difference in my ability to get weapons on these maps, therefore I personally think that recharge time has no real impact on semi-competent players getting weapons. Which puts in on my list of things that can be adjusted to help new players without any real impact on the game.


A bit offtopic but to me this is similar to strafe jumping, once you know how to do it, its literally pressing 2 keys and moving mouse in pretty constant manner. you just get it into your muscle memory and don't even know, that you are doing it (for normal gaming purposes, not race). But for new players its a barrier. And I consider it a stupid barrier (that was originally undocumented feature), because if you just give everyone solid speed by bunnyhoping as xonotic does its literally the same result. (my opinion after playing both xon and warsow).

Strafe jumping is variable or 'dynamic' acceleration with the granularity of mouse inputs (as opposed to a keyboard's digital input e.g a sprint key). I disagree with you here.
I don't know what you mean by recharge time (respawn time, refire time, Vortex's recharge, MG reload).
Xonotic exists for a long time and low player count is the proof that nobody wants to play Xonotic since it is a bad game by default.
- Lyberta, 2017
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#75
Allow me to turn Lyberta's asinine comment into something relevant to the discussion at hand: shots taken wildly and without real consideration of your opponent's location are rarely effective and usually only hit the wall. What they do succeed in, however, is exposing your position and how weak it may be! This is as true in the game as it is on these forums. Big Grin
asyyy^ | are you releated to chuck norris?
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