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Artstyle Development

#76
at this point with my current work on vectorwars1r8 im going for a clean tech look

having played through halflife and well lets face it any post 2002 game i am SICK AS HELL of seeing rusty pipes and post apocolyptic stuff, I for one and trying to keep my style relatively clean, well lit and so I'm trying to do something new. It's a lot harder and its an uncomfortable place to be in, but offereing something new is very important.

I am totally laughing at the complete 180 degree turn the artistic direction has taken since the start... It seemed to start at clean futuristic original look and swiftly became rusted grimey post apcolyptic (just like every other game out there).

I suppose thiers nothing wrong with either, but please mappers keep youre map fresh and try and do intresting things that hasnt already been done by valve or epic 100 times better Smile

please not im not saying dont be like id, those guys are freakin geniuses!
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#77
Other than the typos, I agree wholeheartedly. :-D

Yes, yes, and yes.
Once upon a time, I wrote a forum post. And this is what it said.
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#78
Ok ugh. We seem to be getting bogged down on details details. Remember guys, as long as this isn't pinned down, we artists will be blind to direction.

Let me just ask this: the technological setting. How far into the future should we aim for?

1) near future. no aliens or some. droids. think Ghost in the Shell. technology a spiffed up version of modern tech.
2) future. think star trek, mass effect. aliens, droids. technology still vaguely resembles modern tech but with new advancements not yet discovered in this age or traded from aliens.
3) far future. think unrecognizable new human-derived species who have completely forgotten where Earth was. aliens, droids, plasma beings, AI, etc. technology almost unrecognizable from magic.

Just choose (or put a new class up there). That has to be settled first before we get into details as to who the master races are, what their intentions are, why they are fighting, where exactly was 'Xonotic' derived, etc.

I'm leaning towards 3 of course.

Also fabzor3 and juli, no one said it would be post-apocalyptic grimy really. ;d We're still going with the clean look. Some factions will look dirty of course (pirates, mercs, weird people) but most of the settings and weapons will be ultra-high technology mysterious alien bestowed shiney thingies. It will be as clean as Portal, Mass Effect, Mirror's Edge, etc.

Also we should probably ask mappers to at least refrain from using brick textures too often. Use plain white panels for example, or just simple primary colors.
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#79
okay thanks oblivion!

im going with clean tech for now anyways and yeah i agree with you there avoid bricks!

i recon in terms of how far in the future, im going to go with 2.. minus those homoetoric skivvies.

and when i say clean i mean star WARS clean, not star TREK clean.

star trek is so clean its almost completely devoid of any kind of detail or feeling, we need a bit of grime and damage, just not to the post apocolyptic point
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#80
hope fully we have room for the holodeck . because the map im working on is not futuristic . you could say its a training exercise in the hologram room Tongue
Master? Do you call me Grasshopper because im cunning and stealthy ?
NO ! You Ugree, Rike Insect !
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#81
Well we can have clean and neat for some factions and dirty industrial grime for others. Theres also the option of a nice biological style if its in the far future as per my aliens Smile
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#82
When has the entire world ever been "clean and neat" OR "dirty and gritty"? Methinks it has always been a combination of the two, so there's no reason why the future would be any different. What matters is that it doesn't continue to look half like pseudo-futuristic environments and half like ancient environments (castles and such).

And maybe more importantly, the content quality and level of detail needs to go up, so that the game no longer looks bland and 'thrown-together' or simple very antiquated (low poly models and maps, both with low res textures).

Also I'm a little concerned that this xonotic art-style direction effort might be a good thing that is going too far and becoming too restrictive (the opposite extreme from the lack of art style nexuiz had). It might be better for the community to approve content as it comes in, on a per item basis, than to try to agree on, stay agreed on and then uphold too specific of a direction. Just have some guidelines, instead of hard rules.
(04-01-2010, 11:21 AM)Roanoke Wrote: Yes, beveled edges are more futuristic. Like BSG and their beveled paper.
But only on one edge.
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#83
I too want a clean style, of course, not for everything. But I do love the super clean environments as well. Far technologically advanced societies tend to have cleaner look as they have learned how to utilize the resources, thus, rusty pipes and such would be to a minimum.
But as Sepelio and Oblivion said, some factions could be rusty and gritty aka, mercs, pirates, scum of the universe -_^ and others could be super clean, shiny and nice (like the robot faction in this case or something).
[Image: duck.gif]
ai am ai.

Fix the avatar size limit please! I want my avatar gifs back! DISCRIMINATION!
Also, change my name to 'ai', these forums sucks which can't have 2 letters in the nick!
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#84
I vote for "2) future. think star trek, mass effect. aliens, droids. technology still vaguely resembles modern tech but with new advancements not yet discovered in this age or traded from aliens."

I'll vote for say a maximum 1 alien race excluding what ever xonotic will be. With androids, cyborgs, robots ect there are plenty of factions to be made

Maybe you should start a poll Oblivion, everyone has alot of trust in you opinion and experience. Democracy ftw Tongue
There's nothing better than getting off you butt and contributing to a community. There is no excuse when it comes to computers. Spend a little of you playing time, giving back Smile
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#85
(03-29-2010, 09:20 PM)Flying Steel Wrote: Also I'm a little concerned that this xonotic art-style direction effort might be a good thing that is going too far and becoming too restrictive (the opposite extreme from the lack of art style nexuiz had). It might be better for the community to approve content as it comes in, on a per item basis, than to try to agree on, stay agreed on and then uphold too specific of a direction. Just have some guidelines, instead of hard rules.

Agreed. While Nexuiz had some over-the-top dumpster effect, there were quite a few maps that stood out visually that simply shouldn't be screwed with much. A few examples are Reslimed, Soylent, and Running Man. Also Nexuiz isn't the first FPS to have no real art direction, Unreal Tournament 99 had no art direction. The only reason it looked consistent is because it was originally intended to fix Unreal's multiplayer therefore it used most of the same resources as that game. In my opinion Xonotic should have an art direction, but nothing restrictive. As long as nothing comes out looking like plastic anime/cartoon worlds (A LOT of maps made for Nex look like that, Capture City being one of them) I think the game will look great.
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#86
(03-30-2010, 02:42 AM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: (...)
In my opinion Xonotic should have an art direction, but nothing restrictive. As long as nothing comes out looking like plastic anime/cartoon worlds (A LOT of maps made for Nex look like that, Capture City being one of them) I think the game will look great.

True, however, it's also not really a problem if the art direction was wel defined, since (imo) the direction we're aiming for really just works as a filter of which maps will end up in the git repo. Nobody stops (or *can* stop) any mapper from doing something completely different. And after all, there are some fine maps which we should encourage server owners to put on their servers, which go into a completely different direction, like castles.

So, personally, I would conclude: Discussing every single detail would be a waste of time, but a clear direction is needed nonetheless. And we still have to give the people some freedom of choice, in the end, we can still just *not* put something into the repo, but still recommend it.
After all, we cannot put *everything* in the repository, otherwise a simple checkout would take days Wink
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#87
I vote for far future and clean, streamlined models. Maps, however, are a different story. The mapper chooses how they want the map to look.

As for delayed healing, yes, delayed regen but not delayed health pickups.
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#88
(03-30-2010, 11:30 PM)Roanoke Wrote: I vote for far future and clean, streamlined models. Maps, however, are a different story. The mapper chooses how they want the map to look.

As for delayed healing, yes, delayed regen but not delayed health pickups.

Agreed. I like a good mix between the maps. If UT99 can have castles and starships (DM Hyperblast) as well as magma fields (CTF Lava Giant) and abandoned warehouses (DM Shrapnel ][), then why do we need to be so restrictive? As long as nothing comes out looking like a plastic cartoon we should be fine.
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#89
Unreal have maps like "Two Worlds" that is really a artificial satellite.
In something very rich people can do in the year 2903. Create artificial satellites with artificial gravity to toy around. These fucking rich people.
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#90
(03-30-2010, 11:30 PM)Roanoke Wrote: I vote for far future and clean, streamlined models. Maps, however, are a different story. The mapper chooses how they want the map to look.

That makes no sense at all, why should modelers have to conform but not mappers? Maps are just as much a part of the visual experience as player and gun models, if not much more so.

I hope this isn't just because there are more mappers out there or mapping is a more entertaining pass-time for contributors, because of better tool support and an effect on actual gameplay. Because in that case, you are just limiting the amount of such badly needed, high quality models that come in, while still having no recognizable art style.
(04-01-2010, 11:21 AM)Roanoke Wrote: Yes, beveled edges are more futuristic. Like BSG and their beveled paper.
But only on one edge.
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#91
Maps that are wanted in the official repository will have to follow the same direction as the weapons and playermodels. It doesnt make sense to have an art direction then.
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#92
as a mapper im going for clean streamlined maps... slightly damaged and dirty but nothing like quake 2 level of decay or the typical cliched rusted metal look, we want to go for more like a realistic metal
[Image: cat1-game.jpg] <- correct

[Image: half-life-2-orange-box-20070521064838264.jpg]<-- incorrect (too much decay)
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#93
What I meant was that the xonotic events can happen in a variety of environments on a variety of planets. Sure, some will be clean and streamlined, but others might be different.
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#94
Okay. I'm beginning to realize that what we really just need for now is a quality cutoff like Flying Steel said.

:/

We can probably wing it for the first few releases and just use the best possible models/textures we can make. Hopefully something more solid will crystallize out of that.

I guess we can still use this thread for making a proper plot. I'll leave it to people with writing skills to do that. Us artists will just have to um... set the bar for now I guess. See what we come up with and see if they mesh up together.

And Roanoke has a point. We can still actually make 'themed' maps that are grungy, postapocalyptic, plain crazy, etc. Just please mappers, do make the effort to actually stop using concrete and brickwork that much. If you're making a map that is not themed (i.e. generic) then use clean scifi surfaces instead.
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#95
(03-31-2010, 09:41 PM)fabzor3 Wrote: we want to go for more like a realistic metal
[Image: cat1-game.jpg] <- correct


Like this?:
[Image: SP1.png]
[Image: SP2.png]
[Image: SP3.png]
[Image: SP4.png]
[Image: SP5.png]
[Image: SP6.png]
[Image: SP7.png]
[Image: SP8.png]

I'm working on it
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#96
fabzor, that first screenshot reminds me of Doom 3 Tongue
[Image: di-712770583645.png]
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#97
About plot...
If you guys are going to write plot I recommend this thread:

http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php...34#pid2234

At the moment I'm working on textures myself, trying to get to grips with using gimp and various things for it.

Kay: Those screens are awesome. The texture on the pipes going into the vat of slime needs changed though. They look like a pair of legs with corduroy trousers on. I'd say just try fitting the texture on them horizontally instead of vertically.
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#98
YES exactly like that Big Grin
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#99
Is that the original Slimepit? A little darker than I would have imagined, but it definitely looks more like an "upgrade" than a butchered "remix". Just be careful if you ever touch Reslimed, I think that map has a look that would probably be destroyed with a darker version. Maybe make everything look realistic in it, but make sure the stone still looks like stone, diamond plate, etc. That looks pretty damn cool, it reminds me of something out of LOADED, just not as gritty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2wKbELWCSg
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I registered for the specific purpose of telling you all how crazy all these factions and art style restrictions are. But by the time I got through reading the thread, and censoring out the more impolite parts of my response, most of you seem to have pretty much figured it out for yourselves, so I'll just state my agreement and point out a few things I think it's important to take note of.

On 'the dumpster effect':
This dumpster effect you seem worried about has absolutely nothing to do with a lack of an overriding concept or art style. FPS's have been a mishmash of unrelated concepts all the way back to Quake which randomly threw together elements from Medieval, to modern, to sci-fi, to just plain weird. Nobody ever complained about this dumpster effect then. The sad truth is, the cause of the dumpster effect in Nexuiz wasn't a lack of a predefined art style, it was simply a lack of quality. Placing restrictions on what styles of content you will accept from the community will not solve that problem. It will only make it worse as it will discourage contribution.

On 'factions':
I really can't figure out what's going on in the heads of those who support this 'factions' idea. What will it actually add to the game? It seems to have no purpose except to raise the barrier for entry and discourage contribution. You've had a hard enough time convincing anyone to make one player model. Does it really make sense to announce to those who might consider it, that if they're not going to produce more than one model, you aren't interested? That's why I think morphed's idea to use hard points on the model to add, 'snap-on' armor and accessories, is brilliant. It lowers the barrier for entry. Suddenly someone who wants to contribute doesn't have to commit to making a complete player model, they can just make a cool helmet or piece of armour which existing models can wear.

On 'clean sci-fi' maps:
I see talk here suggesting that if a map is post-apocalyptic, or medieval styled, or too dirty, then you think it shouldn't be included in Xonotic? ...oh but you're still going to 'encourage server admins to use it'. What does that even mean? In what way do you encourage server admins to use a map other than providing it to them in the Xonotic package? ...and if it's good enough that you'll encourage servers to use it, why is it not good enough to include? If you think a map isn't clean or futuristic enough, then take the source files and make a new version which you think is better. Otherwise, just accept it as it is. If you give the impression that contributions will be rejected or ignored, this gives people much less motivation to invest the time to create content for the project.

On rejecting contributions:
Make all the guidelines you want, but if someone's contribution doesn't match them to your satisfaction, your choice is to either fix it yourself, or accept it as is. As I understand it, the gpl nature of the project means you will always have access to the source files of maps and models so if you think it's better to have multiple variations on every model, you can make them yourself. The only time anything should be rejected is for a technical reason such as not supporting the LOD system FruitieX mentioned or a fairness issue such as the size of the model or not having enough fullbright color on the skin (which is a great idea btw, I just hope all the models don't end up being rip-offs of Tron)

I don't expect you to take my word for any of this. Ultimately it doesn't matter. There's a simple rule which overrides any decision you make here, right or wrong. "Beggers can't be choosers". It really is as simple as that.

On story and single player:
Now all this stuff about factions and settings isn't a complete waste of time, it's still a good way to brainstorm ideas for characters and locations which is always good for new models and maps, but as for the backstories... does a multiplayer game really need a story? CAN it really have a story? I don't think so. Many have tried and it never really works and always ends up the same thing anyway (I'll wager 500 quatloos on the newcomers.) Many have mentioned single player, but I think a decision has to be made here. Just what kind of game are you trying to make? I'm under the impression that you are trying to stick to the gameplay that existed in nexuiz, which was really multiplayer only. There's no reason for any single player except bot matches, and maybe a simple playable tutorial. If you're really interested in making a true singleplayer game, you have to accept that such a thing would be a completely different game and there's no reason to associate such a goal with Xonotic. Trying to tie the two together in any way just puts an unnecessary burden on both projects. Every time someone adds a player model or map or weapon, the question is raised whether it fits into the story. Similarly anything you try to add to the single player game, you have to consider how it will fit into the multiplayer. They really should be completely seperate.
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