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Vortex charge

#1
Alright, I got fed up of this mechanic so here's a couple proposals.

a) Use `g_balance_vortex_charge_always 1`. This makes it charge up even when holding some other weapon. However it barely affects comboing - the min damage you do when you combo fast it still 59 (or so).

b) Disable charge completely (g_balance_vortex_charge 0) and reduce damage to compensate (g_balance_vortex_primary_damage 70 or 65).

Please share your opinions - which change you prefer (or god forbid if you like the current situation) and how much the damage should be reduced if you wanna remove charge completely.
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#2
Personally I vote for removing charge completely. I thought a nice compromise damage would be 70 since that's between the current max and min but now that i saw how little you do when comboing fast i lean towards 65.
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#3
My vote for 65 constant damage. It's predictable, will make the wep more efficient in combos (65 > 59), so good players will get their benefit. And it will be less annoying on large maps, so vortex haters will get their piece of cake too. Also it will be simpler. Simple things are cool.
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#4
(08-20-2019, 12:32 PM)martin-t Wrote: Personally I vote for removing charge completely. I thought a nice compromise damage would be 70 since that's between the current max and min but now that i saw how little you do when comboing fast i lean towards 65.

+1

Sounds reasonable.
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#5
I don't care too much about this - though I tend to prefer having the charge AND the high damage of (charged) vortex. Maybe just lower the charged damage a bit (70? 75?). My reasoning behind this is that I feel the vortex should stay a powerful weapon since it is often also placed in maps at exposed spots. Also, having a particularly fuzzy aim, I would see little point in using vortex if I hit only once in 4 shots or so and could do more damage reliably by fuzzily splashing around in the same time. So we should be aware that nerfing the vortex will effectively encourage more usage of splash spam for less skilled players like me. And I think if anything we have enough of splash spam in Xonotic gameplay.
Please note that I am easily satisfied so I actually like the balance we have now (as I liked the previous balance, and the previous balance before that, and the previous balance before that...)
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#6
My vote goes for 65 or 70 constant damage, with no charge.
I would prefer 70, because the Vortex should remain a powerful weapon, but maybe it would be too OP then.
There are other things to discuss with Vortex, such as reducing its pushforce, but maybe it's for another thread :>

Question: would disabling the charge also affect the interval between 2 shots?
EDIT: ok, I tested and apparently the interval between 2 shots is still the same.
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#7
My vote also goes towards removing the charge completely.
As for the dmg, I think 70 is way too much.  This would mean a pretty hefty buff for the weapon when comboing, so I'm leaning more towards 65dmg.

(08-21-2019, 03:14 AM)Halogene Wrote: My reasoning behind this is that I feel the vortex should stay a powerful weapon since it is often also placed in maps at exposed spots.

I don't think vortex would fall from grace due to this change, it would still stay one of the three most used weapons.

(08-21-2019, 03:14 AM)Halogene Wrote: Also, having a particularly fuzzy aim, I would see little point in using vortex if I hit only once in 4 shots or so and could do more damage reliably by fuzzily splashing around in the same time. So we should be aware that nerfing the vortex will effectively encourage more usage of splash spam for less skilled players like me. And I think if anything we have enough of splash spam in Xonotic gameplay.

Vortex will still be the first choice for medium and long ranges. As for close range—well it's easier to hit shots if your target is big :>
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#8
Why remove the charge mechanic? I always found it quite good that the vortex gets a bit weaker in a battle that lasts for more than a second. I like how it makes vortex be most dangerous if you manage to hit with the first shot upon enemy encounter, but less ferocious in an ongoing battle.
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#9
I think that the charge duration should be increased (and minimum damage lowered) so that people have an incentive to switch to other weapons. Imo no charge means that people will keep switching back to vortex in combos unless you nerf its damage until it's completely useless
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#10
Remove charge, raise animtime.
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#11
I have a few suggestions here depending on the desired direction we take with the weapon:

Combo: If we want the weapon to be effective in combos, then I'd suggest we reduce the damage to 65 and remove charge as it is now, and instead use the alternative charge setting that charges up the shot as you hold secondary. The damage could charge up to 80 or so (the setting it maxes at now), allowing it to be used as a powerful-yet-slow sniper without affecting its power in combos.

Non-combo: In the case that we prefer it to be a slow but heavy hitting single shot weapon, I propose we increase the animtime to just short of the refire time and allow the weapon to charge when not in the player's hands, up to a max of the current value (though slower than it currently charges). This would penalize players for trying to use it in quick close range battles, making the weapon better suited for planned distanced shots, as a heavy finisher or when sniping.

Mixed: Alternatively, we could keep the weapon as it is, simply reducing the maximum damage a charge provides, and possibly speeding up charging. This would keep it effective in both combos and long distance combat, while balancing it a bit better to suit both.


As neither of my suggestions involve removing charge completely, you can probably tell I'm in favour of keeping the mechanic; It serves a good purpose in balancing the weapon regardless of how we design it.
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#12
There's a couple reasons i am suggesting this change:

a) Halogene: Vortex is the ideal weapon for the first shot at any range. The charge incentivizes this even more given you have to hold it to charge up. I don't think this is right - there should be a tradeof to which weapon you choose to hold at any given time. It'll always be vortex at long range but by nerfing the first shot's dmg we incentivize people to choose something else if they except to encounter an enemy at close. This is especially pronounced in LMS and at the end of CA rounds - everyone keeps sneaking around with vortex which gets boring. The lamest thing ever is two people seeing each other, trading 80 dmg and going back to sneaking.

b) Some people seem to only use vortex at medium/long range and don't even bother comboing. At that range other weapons might still be somewhat effective but if the vortex player waits a bit between shots (especially if he can take cover and peek out only for shots) he often does more DPS due to charge. Comboing at this range often reduces your DPS compared to him. Without charge and with 65 dmg, we'll extend the distance where comboing is more effective than pure vortex.

c) Charge means taking something from the player. The expectation is 80 dmg and charge is considered as a mechanic that reduces that. This leads to frustration. Better to set the expectation to 65 straight away. Mario: Making it charge *up* with right button might break this perception but it doesn't solve the issue with a) or b).

When considering combos it's also important to think about range. I don't think vortex should play such a huge rule in combos at short range as now. Arguably this suggestion doesn't affect it much, maybe makes it slightly worse, not sure what the average vortex damage when comboing is. This is something we might wanna reconsider again after evaluating vortex without charge. There were proposals to reduce damage at close range and let the shot pass through while doing full dmg at long range where the shot gets stuck in the enemy. For now removing charge helps with a) and b) and makes is weaker at long range where other weapons are completely useless (effectively somewhat increasing what is considered medium range due to other weapons being stronger *relative* to vortex).
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#13
Some history excursion: Back in 0.1 you had to charge the gun by yourself via pressing a key (I don't remember if it actually was the secondary). It was deemed annoying, especially in fights. Eventually that mechanic got removed. Also it lead to people running around with the gun out to have maximum damage "ready".
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#14
For anyone who's interested in Mario's suggestion, see his MR and my comment on it why i think it's not doable in practice.
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#15
You can a)
remove the charge completely and either make the max damage 70 damage with reduced push force or 65 damage with the current push force. Though If you'd make the max damage 65 and reduce the push force as well, you'd nerf it too much. 

or b)
Keep the charge. It adds an important mechanic: The mechanic being charging it at a favorable moment. Not charging it, switching to another weapon, switch back and shoot will result in dealing less damage. So if you guys decide to keep the charge, have the max damage set at 65 and the min damage set at 50 with the current push force as well, although if the vortex is not fully charged and you'd hit someone with it, the push force should be reduced as well (I am not quite sure if this is the case currently, if not, it'd be a nice addition). Vortex should not charge offhand. You must have the weapon equipped for it to charge, otherwise the whole point of the charge mechanic is useless. Although there's one problem with the charge: The charge on the Vortex promotes campy playstyle a lot. People who tend to camp often will always have their Vortex fully charged, dealing the maximum damage. Where as for the players who use Vortex in combo's, will often use Vortex as a quick high damage dealer in fights and in most cases have the Vortex not fully charged, not dealing full damage. 

Personally, I'd prefer a. This way the damage between players who combo and players who camp is always the same, creating a perfect balance. Although the charge is a fun mechanic, I think it's balance wise better to remove the charge completely and add something instead (increase the amount of time to shoot again for example).
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#16
I'm in favor of removing charge as well.

Vodka balance had 65 dmg and people reported it feeling too weak. I however think it's optimal when combos are taken to consideration.
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#17
I think there are already enough complicated and non-obvious weapon mechanics in Xonotic. So for the sake of simplicity I vote for flat 70 damage and push force somewhere between 250 and 300.


The next paragraph is written only from the perspective of a duel player.


Ideally I would like animtime and refire 2-3s and 100 damage. This would punish you much more for missing and encourage a little more strategical use of the vortex. With the current mechanics missing a vortex shot at close range is no big deal because you can just switch to the next weapon in 0.2 seconds. If you are stuck with vortex in your hand and deal no damage during the refire time you have to think more carefully about weapon selection.
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#18
I vote for 70 dmg, no charge, no knockback. Just an an idea: would it be possible to change the damage of a weapon based on the distance from player being hit? Maybe something like decreasing the damage output on shots that are hit on players that are too close and too far from you, having that sweet spot where you can use nex at its best. But that idea could be as bad as my nex is small so w/e.
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#19
(08-22-2019, 09:59 AM)martin-t Wrote: There's a couple reasons i am suggesting this change:

a) Halogene: Vortex is the ideal weapon for the first shot at any range. The charge incentivizes this even more given you have to hold it to charge up. I don't think this is right - there should be a tradeof to which weapon you choose to hold at any given time. It'll always be vortex at long range but by nerfing the first shot's dmg we incentivize people to choose something else if they except to encounter an enemy at close. This is especially pronounced in LMS and at the end of CA rounds - everyone keeps sneaking around with vortex which gets boring. The lamest thing ever is two people seeing each other, trading 80 dmg and going back to sneaking.


Out of curiosity is there any mode in mind for balancing? I mean a lot of AFPS seem to balance especially for duel. It might be hard to balance the Vortex for like every mode around. But same applies to almost any weapon in the game. Thing is we have these "super huge" and "super small" maps, I honestly don't know what's best for the vortex. However i wonder how it would work to add a charge mechanic while zooming only and have some "fixed" damage when not zooming. That could at least be a good way to have that really far-distance fights. That way the vortex still could do good damage to someone who is really far away while it isn't the optimal weapon for "close range" battles anymore. Dowside of this obviously is that we would need a fixed zoom distance for the vortex as well
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#20
I like flat 65, after having played quite a few games with balance-testing.  I also like the other changes in balance-testing Smile
Flat 65 is good for combos, makes successful sniping require a bit more skill.

Edit: for those wanting a more powerful sniper weapon on big maps, there is already a sniper rifle.  Flat 80 dmg, 8 round mag, 1/4 the push force of vortex.
I would like to see the rifle used more, instead of trying to make the vortex good for everything without being overpowered or annoying to use.
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