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IRC Moderation Abuse by MrBougo

#26
Lara, you are right to pick on what looks like dogwhistles. I would prefer not engage with them for now and keep this thread on-topic however. I encourage anyone else to do the same.

If mini wants to argue that I abused my mod status in banning Antares for two weeks for the reasons I explained, then sure, we can do that for a bit. Although I don't see the point of it: I stand firmly by my decision and there is no dispute on this among the team.

If they want to make this about my stance on trans politics, then I'm afraid this discussion will not be going anywhere interesting at all.

#27
I highly disagree with you, Mr. Bougo.
I think you should banish mini right now. You are too tolerant. You gave too much warning to Antares.
If you let each guy write a bullshit, at the end of the day, minorities have to read a lot of bullshits (and insults).
You should banish at the first insult, at the first attack of liberty.
These people talk about liberty and free speech but in reality, they are enemies of liberties because they try to deny liberties of other people.

I have the right to make ear piercing. I have the right to get contraceptives. I have the right to abortion, without providing a ground, without asking agreement of men. This is just my personal choice because I am free.
By the same way, a trans person have rights to ask surgery and drugs. I don't care, they do what they want with their body. They are free.

Mr Bougo, this is not "your" stance on trans politics, this is the law voted everywhere in the free world.
This is not a subjective point of view that we can discuss or debate.
This is exactly like the same-sex marriage.
The law is the law. More generally, you can not let people start to develop sexism, mysoginic, transphobic, homophobic, or even racism arguments because these people have no limits. They try to provocate and bring us back to the epoch of Alan Turing.
Look, he try to know about your sexuality : "If you've followed GID/trans treatment at all,". We don't care. He does not have to ask or suggest.

Mini is not a philosophe. He does not have seat at the lord chamber or EU parlement. He is not doctor. We don't care of his opinion and we don't have to read his bullshit. So you should banish. You should be strict.

Now, to explain the difference between a hate speech and a normal speech, I would like to share my cooking recipe for whiskey chocolate truffles.
I usually cook this for Valentine's day. I started with a simple recipe like this :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvGiMbZN...ngPassions
However, the problem is the quantity of Whisky. As you can see, the guy put only 1 spoon of Whisky. This is too few. So I increased to 8 because I would like have truffle with a deep taste. The truffles are soft, floppy and we can not take with fingers.
My point of view is that we should cook 2 chocolates : a liquid ganache to put inside, and a wrapper made from hard chocolate to contain the ganache.

About this, I think that we can debate because we will not hurt or harass people !

#28
Lara, I will get back to your post in fuller detail later, but I don't feel like mini has broken any rules right now. We have a disagreement, sure. I think the discussion is pointless, sure. And trying to turn the conversation onto politics with loaded language is a red flag, sure. But I don't see grounds for banning.

I will look at your message a little more carefully and consult with the team later on.

#29
(02-23-2021, 06:09 AM)LaraCroft Wrote: Mini is not a philosophe. He does not have seat at the lord chamber or EU parlement. He is not doctor. We don't care of his opinion and we don't have to read his bullshit. So you should banish. You should be strict.

I suppose you could insert any nickname instead of mini. Wink
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#30
(02-23-2021, 06:09 AM)LaraCroft Wrote: I highly disagree with you, Mr. Bougo.
I think you should banish mini right now. You are too tolerant. You gave too much warning to Antares.

Calm down, please. Sheesh.
I didn't review what Antares said but I think everyone should be able to express their opinion in an appropriate manner. The topic itself may not be appropriate for this forum. But then just lock it.
Banning just because someone doesn't align with your perspective on a topic that's important to you is no reason to ban anyone. That's effectively suppressing free speech.
I think every side may have good arguments for it. So it should be up to you where you position yourself on that spectrum.
But just because you are on one side doesn't mean everyone not on your side has to be banned.


If the forum turns into such place I'd be happily excluded, leaving this emerging bubble alone.

#31
I don't want to derail the thread, so let's keep it on topic.

I'll just say that Lara's position is entirely fair. There are other approaches to community management that take a firmer, more opinionated stance than just "let everyone express themselves as long as it remains civil", and I fully respect those approaches. I'm just not comfortable enacting those alternatives in the pre-established culture that exists in this community.

EDIT to clarify: Above anything else, as I've said elsewhere, my role here is to take care of the community and put it in the right path to growth. That means shunning toxicity, but not just that. If I forget context, I'll end up alienating the existing community, which would work against my goals. I'm walking a tightrope as Lana's counterpoint shows, where I cannot fully satisfy everyone. It sucks, but that's how it goes.

And another precision: I don't think anyone cares about freedom of speech on a gaming forum. This isn't the place for off-topic debates on trans politics, especially an "all opinions welcome" kind of debate which I have argued results in exclusion. My choice in the trade-off of shunning toxicity vs. avoiding alienation is to steer away from those topics when possible. This is a bad move in my moral framework, but I don't see a better one.

Suggestions are welcome, my private messages are open for that. Now let's keep this thread on-topic please, or I'll have to lock it and invite whoever sees fit to make a new one to continue the discussion or ask me to unlock.

#32
(02-23-2021, 12:17 PM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: And another precision: I don't think anyone cares about freedom of speech on a gaming forum. This isn't the place for off-topic debates on trans politics, especially an "all opinions welcome" kind of debate which I have argued results in exclusion. My choice in the trade-off of shunning toxicity vs. avoiding alienation is to steer away from those topics when possible. This is a bad move in my moral framework, but I don't see a better one.

I assume this includes IRC? If so, then the discussion about trans-topics should have been shut down immediately and not go on for a week.
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#33
(02-23-2021, 02:07 PM)Mirio Wrote:
(02-23-2021, 12:17 PM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: And another precision: I don't think anyone cares about freedom of speech on a gaming forum. This isn't the place for off-topic debates on trans politics, especially an "all opinions welcome" kind of debate which I have argued results in exclusion. My choice in the trade-off of shunning toxicity vs. avoiding alienation is to steer away from those topics when possible. This is a bad move in my moral framework, but I don't see a better one.

I assume this includes IRC? If so, then the discussion about trans-topics should have been shut down immediately and not go on for a week.

IRC is a bit more difficult because it is eminently off-topic. Discussions can start and end in the blink of an eye, and because it goes so fast it's easy to get pulled into debate without noticing much. Also, it is less persistent and visible, so the side effects on the community are at least not as perceptible.

I do agree though that the discussion on IRC should not have gone on for that long. That would have saved me some personal sanity at least. I'm (re-)learning this stuff as I go.

Thanks for keeping me in check Mirio. Don't hesitate to message me next time.

#34
(02-23-2021, 06:09 AM)LaraCroft Wrote: This is not a subjective point of view that we can discuss or debate.
The law is the law. More generally, you can not let people start to develop

That's an interesting trickery. The times when this law wasn't the law were not so long time ago. And during these times leftists advocated for free speech, open discussion, giving platform to "oppressed" groups. They got that, they pushed their mindset to mainstream, they got the laws they wanted. And what now? "The law is the law, no discussion is allowed, bannish everyone who dares to disagree". Nice doublethink.

Also fun thing is that you that "this is not a subjective point of view". Not subjective means objective. But when leftists are advocating for their values they often insist on moral relativism, that every person determines what's right for them - like you did in your post "I have right to ... because I'm free". But when you encounter an opposition you immediately switch your relativism off.

The third fun thing is your suggestion to avoid politics and discuss cocktail recepies instead. Well it might sound like a good suggestion, but when you personally felt abused you started a loud political thread. And even here, half of the message I'm replying to consists of politics. So you think only people with the "right" political opinions can express their opinions, and all other should humble themselves and resort to cocktails? Fairnuff.


As for the topic, I do agree that Antares is a nasty person who spends much time trashtalking and trolling. But the more this thread develops, the more I think that he was banned for his trans opinion, because his generic trashtalking has been tolerated for years. And he was banned only when he expressed (in a very inappropriate way, I admit) his opinion about trans people.

I don't think it's the right path for xonotic community, and in no way can be called "growth". For me, xonotic community was always a place where people with radically different opinions and mindsets could have a civilized discussion while enjoying their favorite game. Now I witness that this is being destroyed.

But while it's sad for me, I think I have better things in my life than fighting against. This trend is becoming world's mainstream, and all who dare oppose will be canceled, deplatformed, deemed mad or maybe physically killed. But I don't care (and I have a valid reason for not caring), do what you want.

The only reason I wrote this message is to witness that I'm not with you, I'm not taking part in this process of the intended "growth" of the xonotic community. I gonna keep my own moderation policy for the servers I host. This moderation policy has been liberal and welcoming, but if someone lefty comes and starts to demand to ban everyone he/she dislikes - I will definitely ban that person instead.

I'm sorry if someone sees this message as diverting into offtopic, I promise not to argue here any more. I just wanted to make a statement about my opinion.

#35
Fair enough morosophos.

I'll address the part that I feel is relevant to the thread and leave the rest aside (but not unacknowledged!)

(02-23-2021, 03:30 PM)morosophos Wrote: As for the topic, I do agree that Antares is a nasty person who spends much time trashtalking and trolling. But the more this thread develops, the more I think that he was banned for his trans opinion, because his generic trashtalking has been tolerated for years. And he was banned only when he expressed (in a very inappropriate way, I admit) his opinion about trans people.

I haven't had much interaction with or awareness of Antares before that, aside from the occasional "i had a dream" posting. At least not that I recall.

One brief interaction that comes to mind actually had him bring up something of the order that there exists valid criticism of codes of conducts and of feminism. To which I agreed, although I understood that we would be in opposition if we were to discuss this further.

I would never in a million years have thought to escalate a discussion with him or cast him aside for that disagreement. I'm all for coexisting as long as everyone shows basic decency and respect, which was the case that day.

Now I will restate what I said earlier in my different posts in this thread. My core moral values lead me to hear the voice of minorities in an equitable way. My personal education and context make me sympathise with the struggles of queer people and women in particular. I can't shed that away and neither should I. Nevertheless, I have stated my case for Antares' ban clearly and have based it on values which I believe are in the interest of the community, politics set aside. My two reasons in Antares' recent behaviour that justify the ban are the linking to the two imageboard threads I have described earlier, destined to catalogue and publicly shame trans people in despicable ways, and the repeated inflammatory and sometimes personally targeted attitude on topics of feminism and trans people over a few days, despite warnings.

I don't think it's unfair of me to have both raised the issue toward that behaviour based on personal values and enacted the ensuing ban based on community management values.

As for your comment on values shifting and our social spaces being appropriate places to express radically opposed opinions, I would at least expect that we discuss those opinions in a more relaxed way, and try to steer away from them if it turns out that they will inevitably escalate into counterproductive or harmful dispute. I think we will both agree that this would be for the best, given that political debates are not the main reason people join this community in the first place.

#36
After reading this thread and the respective IRC logs, I conclude that there is nothing left to discuss here.
  • Links to imageboards in general are... tricky. The concrete links posted certainly did overstep some boundaries.

  • This discussion here is highly off topic. It takes merely basic common sense that demeaning comments about other people are wrong. We do not want any of that here, no matter if the people insulted are Xonotic players or not. Can't we just get along?

  • Furthermore, this is a virtual space (after all, we're not murdering each other for real, but just shooting each other with virtual rockets, bullets or electro bolts in game). Therefore, the real-world identities of players in our community - whether it's their real name, address, sexual identity, or whatever - are not up for debate.

  • All this was started by our "house troll" whom I am not gonna name here. Please do not further feed that troll.
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After internal discussion, we conclude that the moderation decision stands, and has been sufficiently justified in this thread.
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