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+--- Thread: Lightning Gun / Machine Gun thread (/showthread.php?tid=3035)
RE: Lightning Gun / Machine Gun thread - asyyy - 08-12-2012
(08-12-2012, 03:29 PM)machine! Wrote: I'm on asyyy on this one, hit-scan weapon requires MORE talent then using the Nexgun.Nexgun is a hitscan weapon too, at least in common definition.
RE: Lightning Gun / Machine Gun thread - Smilecythe - 08-12-2012
(08-12-2012, 03:26 PM)asy7um Wrote: If it doesn't need talent/practice what keeps you from hitting a decent lg at ql?Come on don't be an imbecile, I am simply trying to complain how boring of a weapon LG is and how it should definitely not be a part of Xonotic.
LG is easy to use and it's simply revolting when people use it most of the time especially in CA.
RE: Lightning Gun / Machine Gun thread - asyyy - 08-12-2012
I was actually trying to be polite, yet you call me an imbecile. Ok lets be direct: you hit 19% lg in clan arena which is very low.
-> You suck at it but call it ez, how does that make sense?
RE: Lightning Gun / Machine Gun thread - Smilecythe - 08-12-2012
So it appears that my accuracy is below good enough, so what? Not everyone has fingers growing out of their asses. All my accuracy statistics in the list are below good enough. Surely you don't believe that the accuracy calculator simply ignores all the shots that aren't meant for hitting? The weapons can also be used for rocket jumps, boosting friends or drawing tits in the wall. I think I also made it clear that it is not my favorite weapon. Try to think this way, what do you see more: Skilled LG users or skilled air rocket fraggers? The answer is a resounding LG users, because it is easier to use in full effect. Or if you'd rather "be direct" and try to mock me instead of becoming aware of it, I'll guarantee that I won't be able to convert your comments into anything useful.
I understand you have a thing for LG, but you said it yourself and I can quote it forward: http://www.quakelive.com it's balanced and free, go and enjoy your LG as much as your heart desires, it's there and it doesn't need to be in Xonotic.
RE: Lightning Gun / Machine Gun thread - asyyy - 08-12-2012
Well you are the living evidence that your statement is invalid, that's all I got to say. I'm not interested in a stupid flamewar.
RE: Lightning Gun / Machine Gun thread - machine! - 08-12-2012
(08-12-2012, 03:37 PM)asy7um Wrote:(08-12-2012, 03:29 PM)machine! Wrote: I'm on asyyy on this one, hit-scan weapon requires MORE talent then using the Nexgun.Nexgun is a hitscan weapon too, at least in common definition.
Oh, sorry, thought hit-scan were weapons like lg and mg.
RE: Lightning Gun / Machine Gun thread - Mepper - 08-12-2012
The MG is also hitscan.
And he wanted to point out that the LG was easy to understand, and that the whole mechanic of that weapon is just boring, in which I fully agree with him.
He didn't say it is easy to get a high accuracy with it. And skill is not an argument, never.
RE: Lightning Gun / Machine Gun thread - hutty - 08-12-2012
shotgun is hitscan too ... btw
RE: Lightning Gun / Machine Gun thread - Halogene - 08-13-2012
Indeed, skill is not an argument. I think that point has been made before.
And I have to say I agree with Smilecythe and Mepper that the LG's mechanic is boring: hold fire button and try to keep the opponent in crosshair until he dies. But this applies already to MG, which is why I don't like that weapon too much, either.
What I don't get however is why it should be a bad idea to replace the MG with the LG. The mechanics are identical as far as I can tell. And in the hands of someone with a steady aim MG already is a deadly weapon (thinking of kojn for example here). There should be a randomizing element in the LG however similar to the spread of MG or a lower dps to balance it, but that's a balance matter once it's implemented.
RE: Lightning Gun / Machine Gun thread - rafallus - 08-13-2012
No randomizing please, this would make it essentially the same as MG and therefore pointless.
What could work, was making a beam lag behind a crosshair somewhat. That or just fiddling with raw damage values. We shall see anyway.
RE: Lightning Gun / Machine Gun thread - asyyy - 08-13-2012
Yes and xonotic is a boring game, shoot at enemy till he dies... /sarcasm
Using the lg effectively in Xonotic will depend a lot on positioning and predicting the other player's movement. If you don't understand that there is more to a weapon than its raw mechanics, this discussion is pointless.
RE: Lightning Gun / Machine Gun thread - Smilecythe - 08-13-2012
(08-13-2012, 12:59 AM)Halogene Wrote: What I don't get however is why it should be a bad idea to replace the MG with the LG.LG is a very addictive weapon and with adding LG I'm afraid that Xonotic will turn into another arena shooter where people just point and slash each other with their shafts, lying to themselves that it's making the game exclusive and needs a lot of stradegy. I'd rather both MG and LG would be gone, but LG not making it in takes higher priority in my objection.
(08-13-2012, 03:19 AM)asy7um Wrote: Using the lg effectively in Xonotic will depend a lot on positioning and predicting the other player's movement. If you don't understand that there is more to a weapon than its raw mechanics, this discussion is pointless.But in the end it will just be following the other player by matching the motion with either moving your mouse or strafing, that's as far as the intensity and diversity of it's usage goes. All there is to predict is which direction the player is going to evade/move and where the player will show out. That 'excitement' applies to any weapon and if a player appears withing the range, to use LG here takes least risk to 'fail' in a effective way and a competitive person will of course play it safe.
RE: Lightning Gun / Machine Gun thread - machine! - 08-13-2012
Xonotic is VERY combo(shot switch. shot switch) oriented, doing a combo often results in higher fire rate than just waiting for the gun to recharge/reload(i know either two isen't the right word but i don't know how to call it). Making MG into a more powerful LG, maybe also buff Hagar and Electro will make the game less spammy I think, since those weapon typs isen't as effective in combos/spamming as Nexgun, Mortar, RL etc.
Less combo spamming and I'm happy!
RE: Lightning Gun / Machine Gun thread - Halogene - 08-13-2012
(08-13-2012, 03:19 AM)asy7um Wrote: Yes and xonotic is a boring game, shoot at enemy till he dies... /sarcasm
Using the lg effectively in Xonotic will depend a lot on positioning and predicting the other player's movement. If you don't understand that there is more to a weapon than its raw mechanics, this discussion is pointless.
Sure there is more to it, but with the MG there isn't so much more than with other weapons.
(let's not take the Nex as example now, shall we)
Anyway, I don't think the LG will be addictive in Xonotic, if it doesn't get that high dps. Let's see how it works out, to me it's a question of balancing it with the other weapons. If it replaces the MG I'm fine. just having two weapons of THAT kind would be not a good idea imho and this isn't planned afaict.
RE: Lightning Gun / Machine Gun thread - asyyy - 08-13-2012
Of course it wont be that addictive in Xonotic as all the big mouth heroes will struggle to hit +20% accuracy, making it inferior to the other weapons
"just need perfect tracking and predict your opponent's every move, so easy" <- cba to discuss with a biased(?) view like that.
RE: Lightning Gun / Machine Gun thread - kojn^ - 08-13-2012
Honestly with all the combo work that goes on MG or LG you still will only be able to use in specific situations to be effective damage wise with them. For sure LG will be used more then MG because its more fun and has the beam effect and probably easier to hit with but thats only due to the MGs randomized spread.
Anyway, if it does come which it is. Just waiting to see what it's like, should be cool. UTs plasma rifle although the beam on it does a constant damage its split into like 8 segments/zones. As you cross inbetween these zones there is a damage increase..not quite sure why but remember reading it before, think its in the UT Bible by flocutus Could be a potential idea or something similar implemented.
RE: Lightning Gun / Machine Gun thread - Smilecythe - 08-13-2012
(08-13-2012, 04:49 AM)asy7um Wrote: Of course it wont be that addictive in Xonotic as all the big mouth heroes will struggle to hit +20% accuracy, making it inferior to the other weapons
"just need perfect tracking and predict your opponent's every move, so easy"
Not interested in stupid flamewars my ass, it's still easier to learn than hitting airshots with mortar. LG needs a deciding attribute that is as hard to use as any other weapon, that's the kind of balance the LG in Quake Live is lacking. You took the 'imbecile' bit too personally, I'm sorry I called you an imbecile.
RE: Lightning Gun / Machine Gun thread - asyyy - 08-13-2012
And hitting an airshot with the electro is even harder, yet it deals less damage than then mortar. That's not how weapon balance works. Like Kojn said, weapons are meant to be useful in certain situations but not in all of them.
RE: Lightning Gun / Machine Gun thread - Smilecythe - 08-13-2012
(08-13-2012, 05:23 AM)asy7um Wrote: And hitting an airshot with the electro is even harder, yet it deals less damage than then mortar. That's not how weapon balance works. Like Kojn said, weapons are meant to be useful in certain situations but not in all of them.I keep repeating myself and you keep missing the point, whats useful in where was not what I was concerned about, it's the fact how less challenging LG is to master into it's maximum effect regardless the situation compared to any other weapon. There are more people capable of using LG than Rocket Launcher in their full effectiveness, because it is EASIER to do so. That's where the weapon balance is lacking and that's precisely how the weapon balance works.
RE: Lightning Gun / Machine Gun thread - asyyy - 08-13-2012
You should stop calling everything you say a "fact". For me it counts what people do and not so much what they say. You state that LG being easy to master is a fact, yet you haven't managed to master it by yourself after 3600+ games. Using the LG in Xonotic will be harder due to the fast movement physics and the tight hitboxes alone. There are countless ways to deal huge damage in close-combat with a variety of weapons (in a less challenging way, see the electro or the cryling for example) and LG wont work at long rage either. It most likely will come down to LG being effective if you catch the opponent on a jumppad, up in the air and for good aimers also at mid range on an open ground.
hint: you don't need to keep repeating yourself, I get your point. It's just that I don't agree with it because it lacks any support by evidence. Repeating it wont make it become "more true".
RE: Lightning Gun / Machine Gun thread - kojn^ - 08-13-2012
Actually completely not true. If MG and LG are meant to be easy to use in Xonotic then the MG would be used a whole lot more. It is one of the most difficult weapons to deal damage consistently due to the fact you can do a lot of the time a higher DPS using a rocket/nex mortar/electro etc combo then what you can do using the MG. When you use it yes its point and aim, but you need exceptional movement and prediction ability IN XONOTIC for it to be used as effective as possible..the fact this is not easy to do in Xonotoc means it is not an easier weapon to use in practice. The same will apply with the LG.
Weapon balance isn't about making all the weapons have the same degree.of difficukty to use, if that was the case every weapon would have no distinction. It is how the weapons deal damage based on the functionality and degree of difficulty. Which is why a rocket does more damage in one hit then a single MG bullet.
Let's try to focus back on the weapon/s themselves now.
RE: Lightning Gun / Machine Gun thread - Smilecythe - 08-13-2012
My objection is based off from the experience in Quake Live's Clan Arena where LG is clearly being over used. I might not be the best LG user for most of the time just as asy7um keeps nagging, but it still doesn't change the FACT that people choose LG in most of the close close combat situations which people usually get themselves into on purpose. People want to win so they play it safe and LG is safe. The over usage is sometimes so bad that it's as if you're playing instagib, just with LGs. What's the reason for it's over usage if not what I have been saying all this time? There are other game mods where LG is more equally used. But from point making to another that is not the reason I don't like LG in Xonotic no, it's because I persistently find pointing and clicking boring because for majority of the people it's easy and simple. It is less motivating to try something reckless with other weapons when people continuously try to get you down using the easiest way, is it not?
RE: Lightning Gun / Machine Gun thread - rafallus - 08-13-2012
But how can you carry the conclusion from QL to this game, where weapon set is clearly different?
Eg. same conclusion doesn't work with UT series ang they have LG-like weapon too.
RE: Lightning Gun / Machine Gun thread - asyyy - 08-13-2012
Well people kill him with LG there, so it must be a noob weapon
gamers logic..
RE: Lightning Gun / Machine Gun thread - Mr. Bougo - 08-13-2012
(08-13-2012, 12:05 PM)asy7um Wrote: Well people kill him with LG there, so it must be a noob weapon
gamers logic..
Boo.