Lightning Gun / Machine Gun thread

It appears, Samuel opened a pandora box with the recent weapon thread... so lets roll

More seriously. As many of you know, I run few servers with non-standard balance. I was surprised to see many newcomers, including those with pretty solid fps background, complementing MG setup in there. That's the main reason for this thread.
Now, 2.5.2 balance had a major problem with MG - it was very overpowered. So most decent servers toned it down, usually according to some ladder config advices. But these advices weren't good either, as MG was getting so weak that nobody cared about it. In the end it got a bad reputation.

Now, weapon system in Xonotic (not speaking about the balance) feels quite different than it was in the past - I suspect it might be the anti-lag code (?). And it seems to me that MG can be set up quite well in this environment. What I run, is:

Code:

set g_balance_uzi_mode 0                                // Activates varible spread for sustained & burst mode secondary
[...]

set g_balance_uzi_burst 0                               // # of bullets in a burst (if set to 2 or more)
[...]

set g_balance_uzi_first 1
set g_balance_uzi_first_damage 22
set g_balance_uzi_first_headshotaddeddamage 0
set g_balance_uzi_first_force 5
set g_balance_uzi_first_spread 0.015
set g_balance_uzi_first_refire 0.2
set g_balance_uzi_first_ammo 1

set g_balance_uzi_sustained_damage 11
set g_balance_uzi_sustained_headshotaddeddamage 0
set g_balance_uzi_sustained_force 5
set g_balance_uzi_sustained_spread 0.05
set g_balance_uzi_sustained_refire 0.1
set g_balance_uzi_sustained_ammo 1

set g_balance_uzi_speed 18000
set g_balance_uzi_bulletconstant 115 // 13.1qu

set g_balance_uzi_reload_ammo 0 //default: 30
set g_balance_uzi_reload_time 2

There are few points to note here:
1) This setup is for nex hp/armor system, in Xonotic dmg rate should perhaps be somewhat lower,
2) As you see, primary and secondary have same dmg rate. The difference is that primary has spread that is good in close combat, when opponent tries to evade. Secondary have way less spread and is good for long range shooting. Note, that burst doesn't really work (in my opinion) in this case, as long range shooting with bursty output is kinda erratic.
3) In these settings MG is pretty strong - for close combat its sometimes better than combo attempts and, especially, splash weapons (because of no self dmg). In long range fighting its a very good option when you don't have nex.
4) MG has almost no force here. That's important - with force it will prevent the opponent from running away when he's in defensive. With the little force MG has here, you still can run away if need be (you will only feel that something is hitting you, but will be able to move smoothly).

Now, I'm not saying LG can't be better. But I think MG deserve another chance with 0.6 code, before it gets crippled. I saw experienced players complementing it. So perhaps there could be more MG testing / number crunching / discussion, before changes for 0.7 are decided?

It's really fine as it is as you said except the secondary fire feels so useless. Replacing it with a LG is a mistake, but we don't have a choice in the matter. I'm not sure what this thread is exactly for though :|

Its for pushing more consideration into MG setup, before things are decided. I hope nothing yet is written in stone and developers are open to community suggestions. Otherwise, why would anything be posted / discussed in this forum?

One more thing I forgot to mention in the previous post. Provided that MG is left in the balance, we might also consider removing Hagar. Its actions are similar to MG and Nex charging. So that leads to a simpler weapon system.

I'll reply quickly here once. I said i'll make this thread when the time comes, and I don't have time to keep up with all of this at once. I actually really don't appreciate that you did this, because it's a pain for me to handle all of this discussion and it's not even relevant to what i'm doing right now. I can say right now, I probably won't even read back on this later, because I won't have time to.


That being said, there are three reasons i'm replacing the machine gun.

1. Lightning Gun essentially replaces the role and functionality of the Machine Gun, the mid-ranged aim based attack weapon with low force and mid damage. Plus, I have to make room for the Lightning Gun in the core weapon set ANYWAY... This is the only way I can balance it properly, by moving it out of the core weapon set and adding Lightning Gun instead.
   
2. I have a better idea for the Machine Gun, I want to make it into a Chain Gun. (but outside of default weapon set)
   
3. The machine gun is not really used very much, even though it is technically powerful-- if the players generally don't use it very often, that shows signs of bad game design.
   

Discussing the damage rate and such are useless for now, we'll figure that out when the weapon is coded and i'm trying to balance it.

Didn't you see kojn using it a lot?

pros of lg:
+ better visual feedback, instead of having random spread you see exactly when you hit and where its range it limited
+ mg uses its own kind of ammo, while lg will share ammo like all other guns do -> simplicity, consistency
+ if done with the right effects, lg beam can look amazing. Just imagine running around and melting people with a 50000V lightning bolt
+ reload shouldn't be needed anymore as there are different ways to balance utility: dmg per second, shots per second, ammo usage, pushback/cripple of enemy etc.
+ (ok personal one) it is a fun gun to use.. while mg is like: keep crosshair on enemy, and maybe you hit or maybe you don't (random spread decides). That's not very rewarding

pros of mg:
+ it's already there

Maybe add something to explain why you think replacing mg with lg is a mistake?

Maybe it would be best to criticize LG AFTER actually playtesting it? I like the idea, but I know it can go either way, depending on dps values, beam curving etc.

Provided that MG is left in the balance, we might also consider removing Hagar. Its actions are similar to MG and Nex charging. So that leads to a simpler weapon system.

Uhhh, no. Hagar is nothing like nex or MG.

@Samual
Ok, I am sorry for posting this up prematurely. But then, you put a lot of things up in the other thread and I'm not shure discussing them apart from each other make sense. Balance is a whole pie not just one piece.

Even if MG - as it is now - is not often used, it doesn't mean it can't be often used. On the contrary, in the settings I posted above I see it being like a third most often used weapon, on par with rl.

Plus, I have to make room for the Lightning Gun in the core weapon set ANYWAY...

Why?

What looks more appealing to use a small machine gun, or a big chaingun. That alone would improve usage

pros of lg:
+ better visual feedback, instead of having random spread you see exactly when you hit and where its range it limited
+ mg uses its own kind of ammo, while lg will share ammo like all other guns do -> simplicity, consistency
+ if done with the right effects, lg beam can look amazing. Just imagine running around and melting people with a 50000V lightning bolt
+ reload shouldn't be needed anymore as there are different ways to balance utility: dmg per second, shots per second, ammo usage, pushback/cripple of enemy etc.
+ (ok personal one) it is a fun gun to use.. while mg is like: keep crosshair on enemy, and maybe you hit or maybe you don't (random spread decides). That's not very rewarding

pros of mg:
+ it's already there

Maybe add something to explain why you think replacing mg with lg is a mistake?

I'm not into effects to be honest. And regarding hit feedback, I only care about sound for that.
But for gameplay, MG secondary with a) no burst b) small spread c) decent damage can counter nex over long distance. It's a quite versatile weapon in such settings. Also there is no reload in the above config - all is tweaked with dmg rate. LG will be limited to close combat only.

edit: I saw, I didn't put reload part above. Fixed.

I have a better idea for the Machine Gun, I want to make it into a Chain Gun. (but outside of default weapon set)
The machine gun is not really used very much, even though it is technically powerful-- if the players generally don't use it very often, that shows signs of bad game design.

I DO use MG very often during FFA matches. Thumbs up if you guys also use it.

I just tried it on a local server and basically you turned mg into an overpowered allround weapon whose utility is only limited by available ammo..
Close range, mid range and even long range fights can be dominated with those settings by a decent aimer.

I just tried it on a local server and basically you turned mg into an overpowered allround weapon whose utility is only limited by available ammo..
Close range, mid range and even long range fights can be dominated with those settings by a decent aimer.

You can't put it 1-to-1 in Xonotic, as Xonotic has other hp/armor system. So as I pointed out, dmg rate needs to be lower for Xonotic (g_balance_uzi_first_damage/g_balance_uzi_sustained_damage/g_balance_uzi_sustained_refire). And yes, it is versatile which leads to less splash in game.

I've said it, you've said it. I think we can all agree that over the course of... what? About 8 years, the MG has both been overpowered and retardedly weak, but it has NEVER been balanced. In order to balance the MG, you had to put it on par with other weapons. Looking at Nex(u|i|z), that meant putting it on par with primary fire weapons. Namely... the nex itself. You said "it provides a counter to nex". It doesn't just provide a counter. If it's on par with the nex, then it becomes superior, because the MG is easier to use long range, mid range, and short range when you follow properly. With the nex's current charge time, you better believe that if the MG were "on par" it would take the lead. Weapons should either be strong as short/mid or mid/long, but not both. Nex doesn't count for all three at any given time anymore because it's been grounded.

I never liked the MG anyway. As mentioned above, the fact that it has its own ammo that is taking space on the map where ammo for other weapons could be used is just a source of frustration. Especially when you consider how little it is used. While I don't personally light the idea of a lightning gun (especially with its presence in other games), I'd much rather have it over the MG.

It seems like this thread is intended to be more about saving the MG than discussing the LG.

I think the MG is boring and uninspired. I'd say the same about a few other weapons, but this is about them MG, so I won't.

The MG doesn't compliment the game. The bullet spread is inconsistent. The reload has no place in and Arena FPS. The model is boring. And the biggest issue is no one uses it, except for a finisher. BUT....it does suck to lose a long range finisher. The shotty is fine for close range, but not long range. I do realize, however, that being a finisher is a pretty weak role for a map weapon, and probably the only game mode that really needs a finisher is 1v1.

On to the LG. Yes, the LG is more imaginative in a game like Xonotic. And it's familiar to Quake and UT players(UT link gun, not LG). I'm personally unimpressed with it in those games, although UT2K4 did make good use of it in team games. I think it would get more use just because of the fantasy behind the weapon. In a game with grenades and rockets going off all around you, and futuristic energy weapons, a machine gun just seems underpowered by design. So the LG would just make more sense. Also, it does not fill the role of long range finisher, though idk if that's a game breaker.

In the end, I'm ok with an LG being added and replacing the MG. What I would like is for the shotgun and MG to be merged(and mg functionality nerfed) so we could have both a close and long range finishers on hand, though I don't think many people would share that vision.

@Chryyz

1) I don't belive in extrapolating Nexuiz to Xonotic just like that. Xonotic weapon system feels much more "crisp". Perhaps its the ant-lag, perhaps some frame-rate side effect, but nex is simpler to use in Xonotic and shoots are more predictable.

2) You jump easily from "provides a counter to nex" to "is on par with Nex". Wrong! Nex is, hands down, best pick to initiate a long range attack with line of sight - either first shoot frags or the push disrupts opponent movement, letting you continue to combo.
However, MG can provide a counter to nex in the sense that you can't expect to zoom every other time, or out-camp open space map just by controling nex. In these settings, MG will take you down if you play campy.

3) Having a verstile projectile weapon does serve to reduce splash in game, which I belive is welcome.

As mentioned above, the fact that it has its own ammo that is taking space on the map where ammo for other weapons could be used is just a source of frustration. Especially when you consider how little it is used.

It can be used more if setup well. But more importantly, there are dozens of maps made for these settings. Ofc they can be "fixed" by automatic item replacements (as in sv_q3acompat_machineshotgunswap). But its just a "fix" - technicly it will work, but I would expect gameplay oddities. And that shouldn't be taken lightly. Except for some alpha, Xonotic already had two releases. Its not going to be brand-new-talked-about-game indefinitely. So providing few official maps plus lagacy "fixes" might not be the best option at this time.

I'm against adding LG to Xonotic at all in any forms. It is more imaginative than MG yes, but if it's anything like it appears in Quake Live's CA, while strafing and shafting your opponent perfectly takes all skill, technique and stuff it actually makes a very boring weapon, especially when everyone is using it 80% of the time. Rest 20% goes to railgun and of course because enemies are sometimes out of the LG range. The percents might sound exaggerated because they are, but LG being plain, easy to use and boring is a foolproof fact.

Mortar offers airshots, prediction and ricochets to master. Rocket Launcher offers guiding, prediction and detonation to master. Electro offers primary/secondary comboing and prediction to master. Shotgun offers melee attack to master. Hagar offers airshot streak and it's prediction to master. Nex offers sharp aim and reflexes to master. What special things does weapons like LG have to offer? Pointing, clicking and assimilating the range.. And whatever skill is needed for LG to bring it's dominant attributes up front are far easier to learn and use than the harder to learn and use attributes in the other weapons. And when learnt, it will be on par if not overwhelming the other weapons. Hence the lot of usage, making rest of the weapon skills seem occasionally very useless. (Note I am imagining a catastrophic scenario of Q3's LG implemented to Xonotic)

Reason I think Xonotic is the best arena shooter is solely because there is not a weapon like LG, I vaguely remember Electro being something like LG in the past and I'm completely enthralled for it was changed to what it is now. MG is in a way pretty much like LG, just bit more irritating for being useful in long range as well. Although I'm very very happy that it's relatively quite useless and uncommon in Xonotic. Well, I don't know.. I'm not really an expert of MG, I did not even know there was a burst in MG before reading this thread.

LG offers sharp aim and reflexes to master. What special things does weapons like Nex have to offer? Pointing, clicking and assimilating the range..

There, fixed it for you

The LG does indeed require a lit of aim, but is still very uninterresting to me. Just hold your mouse on an enemy, click, and wait 'till he dies. No other weapon has such boring mechanics. But well, the MG was the same.

I just won't use the LG, just like I don't use the MG. Comboing is just so much more interesting and fun.

But I trust Samual to make something nice.

LG offers sharp aim and reflexes to master. What special things does weapons like Nex have to offer? Pointing, clicking and assimilating the range..

There, fixed it for you

Yeah except you can't aim with Nex while holding the fire button. It's harder to hit with a single shot than with a continuously firing shaft, try and prove me wrong.

try and prove me wrong.

sure, www.quakelive.com, it's very balanced and free to play.

So, in the end we will have something like this?

try and prove me wrong.

sure, www.quakelive.com, it's very balanced and free to play.

Yes thank you for reminding me out of the blue, I can create servers in Quake Live and disable LG completely. Still that does not prove that LG would need more skill and talent than Railgun/Nex.

If it doesn't need talent/practice what keeps you from hitting a decent lg at ql?

I'm on asyyy on this one, hit-scan weapon requires MORE talent then using the Nexgun.