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More dynamic environment - CuBe0wL - 01-02-2011
Hi all, and happy new year!
Lately, I've been thinking a lot about current Xonotic maps (from a mapper and player point of view), about how to improve the environment.
One thing always bothered me in FPS games, that the world is too static. I'm not talking about totally destructable environment, but some more feedback from the surroundings to the player's actions would highly boost up the gameplay experience imho.
Here are my thoughts about more player/map interactions:
More desctructable environment
To be clear, I'm not talking about full destruction. It's fine, that you can't break through walls with rocket blasts, as that would totally alter the map, but it's a bit odd, that a simple glass wall can take just as much damage as a concrete wall. After some punishment, if that glass is non vital on the map for eg. sealing off from end of the map, it should break, shatter etc. Same applies for computers on Red Planet for example.
This also applies for pipes, cretes, barrels, thinner walls, trims on walls, etc. This could lead into some even more twists in gameplay: opening new routes by blasting your way, getting more ammo/hp hidden under certain cretes, destroying pipes under high pressure or highly explosive barrels to further damage your enemy etc.
These all could be easily done with func_wall (also, it can be respawned too).
More interactive environment.
Unlike jumppads, I know they generate more traffic, but I'd like to see more elevators, func_trains, sliding doors, etc. Some control over these would be nice to have too, eg. you have to first push some buttons first to open a door (clearly visible) to get a powerful item behind it, for tactical reasons seal off your enemies by closing doors, player activated death traps (not just some simple, cheap ones, but gas chambers, water chambers etc.) In Newtonian Nightmare, I've made jumppads that you can turn off for some time, and from my experience, it adds an interesting twist to gameplay.
What do you think?
RE: More dynamic environment - Liquid Sin - 01-02-2011
Yeah this would be nice, I too have had that "static" feeling on maps many times lets mix it up.
RE: More dynamic environment - GreEn`mArine - 01-02-2011
Another application might be to simply "see" the opponent through cracks in the wall that you created by shooting at it (without "removing" the wall, so the player-clipping wouldn't change, but it could show a steel wire frame or something like that instead, allowing small projectile or nexgun-shots to pass through).
RE: More dynamic environment - nowego4 - 01-02-2011
Factories with big revolving oil pumps come to mind, also when you shoot pipe steam could come out (can this be done in NetRadiant?), also it would be cool to see dynamic boxes, crates, etc. that you could push around (not necessarily destroy).
yes this would be cool, also buttons would demand attention to the environment.
RE: More dynamic environment - CuBe0wL - 01-02-2011
(01-02-2011, 02:43 PM)nowego4 Wrote: Factories with big revolving oil pumps come to mind, also when you shoot pipe steam could come out (can this be done in NetRadiant?)
Absolutely! You can even make it to look like as if that steam-beam damages your opponent!
RE: More dynamic environment - unfa - 01-02-2011
Sounds good. I do have this feeling that right now the whole environment is just... rigid.
Shattering glass was always amusing me
I saw that it was nicely done in F.E.A.R.Also possibilities to make holes in walls would be nice. Maybe some specific brushes could be destroyable with dynamic CSG but only to some extent, like some thin walls, or floors... that would add new tactic possibilities to the gameplay.
Also killing players by pushing (throwing) heavy objects on them from heights would be a great fun
And if players would gain a capability to grab and throw objects (barrels, crates, bricks, pavement, pipes, tires, planks) - it could be possible to block some corridors with tactical barricades or stack boxes to reach some hidden power-up or gun.
RE: More dynamic environment - Dokujisan - 01-02-2011
I like the direction of this thread.
As a player, I don't really care much about destroying glass or wood. That just feels like a gimmick. I can appreciate if there is some functional dynamic change on a map, like walls moving or something along those lines.
I'd like to see a map where the pathways change over time, like the map is alive.
What if a base had its own built-in defenses, like it changed a bit as more enemy players entered, perhaps set off by sensors in the floor (I'm thinking CTF here, of course).
Like a flag sitting inside an enclosure that begins to close as you get closer to it, like some scene from indian jones or conan the barbarian. That would work if ONLY the enemy could set it off (otherwise, a team would set it off constantly to protect their own flag).
RE: More dynamic environment - CuBe0wL - 01-02-2011
Quote:That would work if ONLY the enemy could set it off (otherwise, a team would set it off constantly to protect their own flag).
Team dependent triggers are already in codebase, and used in NN too.
All the things I've suggested in the start, are doable with the current codebase, just nobody implemented them yet.
RE: More dynamic environment - kay - 01-02-2011
But how about that ODE? what is that exactly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=175oH4Ft_Nw
RE: More dynamic environment - CuBe0wL - 01-02-2011
ODE is not implemented yet, however.
RE: More dynamic environment - CuBe0wL - 01-02-2011
An example on Red Planet:
RE: More dynamic environment - Flying Steel - 01-02-2011
We need more of this.
Much more.
RE: More dynamic environment - clanclanclan - 01-02-2011
A lot of the ideas presented in this thread sound quite good, but I think it's best to approach this cautiously. In games like Crysis, you can interact with everything. You can even chase crabs on the beach, pick them up and throw them
. But the problem is that this doesn't actually effect gameplay at all. IMO Counter-Strike had the best level of interactivity, where everything you could do affected gameplay (eg. you could shoot out lightbulbs or break glass walls to gain entry to rooms). There were no usesless objects, animations or distractions like Olympic crab throwing on some empty North-Korean beach I think the exploding barrels on Red Planet are pretty awesome, but do they hurt people?
RE: More dynamic environment - Flying Steel - 01-02-2011
(01-02-2011, 08:24 PM)clanclanclan Wrote: I think the exploding barrels on Red Planet are pretty awesome, but do they hurt people?
If not then that is flat out historic. Every game since the dawn of man has had exploding barrels that hurt you.
RE: More dynamic environment - Sepelio - 01-02-2011
Personally I'd like to see a map built vertically that has slime or lava that rises and falls every few minutes. There should be enough ways for the players to escape and move out of the way though. This could go well with the buttons to open doors etc. Evidently the more powerful weapons/items would be on the lower levels.
RE: More dynamic environment - Samual - 01-03-2011
I actually was talking to some people on my server about this earlier and noting how Steel Storm has a ton of destructible and manipulatable objects and mechanics in the maps, and wondering why we can't/don't do the same for Xonotic. The simple explanation is just that no one has gone through and created all these extra enhancements yet even though it would probably be very simple for an experienced mapper. (unlike myself) It would be fantastic if we could come up with several different ideas for individual maps and allocate a mapper to work on adding said feature.
But we mustn't get carried away here either, I think. (Like -z- pointed out) There's a limit to how much we should allow the mappers to do, else we might get totally silly maps which are packed with gimmicky tricks. For example, there is a door near the back of Stormkeep next to the megahealth spawn. Adding functionality for the door to open/adding a whole room for it is just wasting space and really doesn't add anything to the dynamics of the map. However, adding details like exploding barrels and boxes and the like are DEFINITELY a good idea I think.
And with respect to moving walls/platforms/other such things from Dokujisans suggestions: Absolutely a good idea for some maps, I can especially see it working well with larger CTF maps such as courtfun (e.g. locking doors between passageways or something like this) and also assault/onslaught maps.
P.S.: No ODE. It is terrible and I sincerely do not think it should ever be used in Xonotic.
RE: More dynamic environment - Cortez666 - 01-03-2011
(01-03-2011, 02:14 AM)Samual Wrote: There's a limit to how much we should allow the mappers to do, else we might get totally silly maps which are packed with gimmicky tricks.
Exploding barrels and similar stuff are limited by the engine. You can avoid silly maps sooner or later someone will make one.
(01-03-2011, 02:14 AM)Samual Wrote: P.S.: No ODE. It is terrible and I sincerely do not think it should ever be used in Xonotic.
I think it requires much optimization to make ode usefull.
I generally like the idea of more dynamic maps.
But i miss a documentation of what is possible and how you do it.
RE: More dynamic environment - unfa - 01-03-2011
As for the exploding barrels on RedPlanet: nice, but...
I don't think those should ever respawn. I'd place a lot of those all around the map, give them big health and make sure that they will not all set off with one shot but some of them will last till the end of the match.
Samual: What's wrong with ODE?
RE: More dynamic environment - Paake - 01-03-2011
It is very satisfying to watch objects collapse after a nice explosion. It would be nice to destroy a bridge or some walls, you could abuse the environment.
RE: More dynamic environment - CuBe0wL - 01-03-2011
Even the floor can be dynamic, there are endless possibilities:
RE: More dynamic environment - ThePWTULN - 01-03-2011
(01-03-2011, 12:41 PM)C.Brutail Wrote: Even the floor can be dynamic, there are endless possibilities:
How do you do that? I like it!
RE: More dynamic environment - CuBe0wL - 01-03-2011
It's very easy and primitive actually
Every tile has a trigger_multiple above it, that activates a func_door, that is hidden inside the floor. When you step in it, the door raises, and only moes back, when you leave the trigger.
RE: More dynamic environment - Samual - 01-03-2011
Wow, never has this game looked more like Tron than since you made that video C.Brutail.
But well, yes, lots of things can be done -- so why aren't they?
Oh, and ODE sucks because it's slow/glitchy.. -- I should clarify though, ODE itself doesn't suck; Darkplaces' implementation of ODE sucks. Also: iirc there are compatibility/support issues with ODE libraries for some OSes, but i'm not sure on the details of this.
RE: More dynamic environment - kojn^ - 01-03-2011
I like the idea of pushing a button to get to a powerup on like a DM map C.Brutail and agree more maps need to encorporate stuff like this, good work
RE: More dynamic environment - nowego4 - 01-03-2011
Hey that's nice, C.Brutail. Gave me an idea for a mutator where you leave a trail of smoke or breadcrumbs that the enemy can see, he also leaves a trail.