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+--- Thread: [SUGGESTION] Suggestion: Need tribes like outdoor map; need bot learn to use jetpack or hook (/showthread.php?tid=4650)
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Suggestion: Need tribes like outdoor map; need bot learn to use jetpack or hook - zwz - 12-15-2013
I love Xonotic's bonny hopping mechanics (by holding space, you remove the friction and move faster) and it's jetpack mutator. But Xonotic's maps are mostly constrained into a small box. As a once tribes and deltaforce fan, we really need some maps like this, which is totally feasible by darkplaces engine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7Usnj80PhU This is done by darkplaces
And, can you make Xonotic save my mutator seetings? I don't wanna set it all over again every time I start a new server.
The next thing is a to make bots learn to use jetpack and grappling hook.
RE: Suggestion: Need tribes like outdoor map; need bot learn to use jetpack or hook - lamefun - 12-15-2013
There are simply no tools to make good outdoor maps in Xonotic. There are outdoor maps in Vehicles server, but I don't think they're very good by your standards. The problem is, proprietary games are financially secure thanks to DRM, so they rush forward at light speed, while free software games often stagnate or die unfinished. There hasn't been major tool or "big" engine feature progress in Xonotic since about 0.5.
RE: Suggestion: Need tribes like outdoor map; need bot learn to use jetpack or hook - edh - 12-15-2013
...and lamefun's trolling spree continues. You can safely ignore him.
There are a few outdoor maps but Xonotic's fast paced style lends itself better to indoor maps. Big outdoor maps tend to be encourage a certain more campy style of play in Xonotic - just seeing the Great Wall Reloaded map in Nexuiz demonstrated this.
Have a look in the map wiki and there are a couple of outdoor maps:
http://dev.xonotic.org/projects/3/wiki/Maps
RE: Suggestion: Need tribes like outdoor map; need bot learn to use jetpack or hook - Maddin - 12-15-2013
Xonotic is meant to be an arena shooter, thus most maps are located somewhere indoor. But there are tools for creating maps like you want them for sure! (I bet lamefun doesn´t know anything about modelling programs nor level editors at all...) Blender is the example for this. My last tests with models where quite promising in Xonotic (another thing which lamefun is wrong about, Xonotic improved on this point!
) as it doesn´t make a big difference whether you are using model geometry or old-fashioned brush geometry in your levels. So it is possible to create big outdoor maps in Xonotic.Besides that, you may want to try out some modelling and mapping yourself and create the maps you want. It´s really not that difficult if you give a try.
RE: Suggestion: Need tribes like outdoor map; need bot learn to use jetpack or hook - lamefun - 12-15-2013
(12-15-2013, 03:59 PM)Maddin Wrote: ... lamefun doesn´t know anything about modelling programs nor level editors at all ... Blender ...
The problem is, proprietary level editors allow you to easily sculpt the terrain inside the editor itself, very easy and user-friendly, you can immediately see how it relates to items / players / buildings. Modelling in Blender has a long test cycle: you have to blindly edit the terrain without seeing your brushes, texturing is complicated (as you don't have NetRadiant's texture palette in Blender, so you have to import each image, care about texture scale, etc. manually), you have to care about exporting, texture scale, shader names. Also, as far I know, if the whole terrain is one model, DarkPlaces will render the whole model and will not ignore unseen parts, since its invisible part clipping mechanism only works with brushes, so you have to care about that manually, too. So people just don't bother.
(12-15-2013, 03:59 PM)Maddin Wrote: Besides that, you may want to try out some modelling and mapping yourself and create the maps you want. It´s really not that difficult if you give a try.
Did it learn to ignore things obscured by a terrain that's one huge model? Does it ignore invisible parts of the model itself too? Does it generate quality collision brushes from the model?
RE: Suggestion: Need tribes like outdoor map; need bot learn to use jetpack or hook - Mario - 12-15-2013
Big outdoor jetpack map (Nexuiz map, but textures should work unless you're using Git):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/18995126/maps/Evergreen_v1r1.pk3
RE: Suggestion: Need tribes like outdoor map; need bot learn to use jetpack or hook - zwz - 12-15-2013
In fact I really want to make a desert theme map, with some pyramids and some dunes, just like the opening level of Delta Force Land Warrior. Players can climb all the way up to the top of pyramids, or fly around with jetpacks. A pyramid uses only four triangles (not high poly model as in Serious Sam 3).
RE: Suggestion: Need tribes like outdoor map; need bot learn to use jetpack or hook - Maddin - 12-15-2013
@zwz:
That seems easily done. Do you already got some experience with NetRadiant? If so you ma just want to go ahead and try your idea out. Though if you are new, tell us and we can show you how it works.
_________________________________________________________
IGNORE THE FOLLOWING TEXT IF YOU DON`T CARE ABOUT THE TROLL IN THIS THREAD:
lamefun, you didn´t answer to my comments, you just tried to prevent propietary/DRM/whatever modelling programs. Anyway, lets feed the troll till it dies of overeating:
(12-15-2013, 04:23 PM)lamefun Wrote: The problem is, proprietary level editors allow you to easily sculpt the terrain inside the editor itself, very easy and user-friendly, you can immediately see how it relates to items / players / buildings.You can create and edit terrain in NetRadiant too. Though if you were talking about models, then you´re wrong. No level editor is capable of editing meshes directly because it´s a level editor and not a modelling/sculpting program.
(12-15-2013, 04:23 PM)lamefun Wrote: Modelling in Blender has a long test cycle: you have to blindly edit the terrain without seeing your brushes texturing is complicated (as you don't have NetRadiant's texture palette in Blender, so you have to import each image, care about texture scale, etc. manually), you have to care about exporting, texture scale, shader names.It´s the same with game engines that are not open-source. Unreal/CryEngine and Maya/3DSMax/Mudbox/etc., to mention the most common ones, are limited the same way. Also, if you got adapted to the workflow, the issue you stated is insignificant.
(12-15-2013, 04:23 PM)lamefun Wrote: Also, as far I know, if the whole terrain is one model, DarkPlaces will render the whole model and will not ignore unseen parts, since its invisible part clipping mechanism only works with brushes, so you have to care about that manually, too.It´s generally a bad idea to create a single-model-level. That won´t work well in other game-engines too. There are also other mechanics like fog-clipping (hiding geometry which is off a defined distance) which can help improving performance of a map.
(12-15-2013, 04:23 PM)lamefun Wrote: So people just don't bother.Oh well, there are enough who do. Only because most people don´t know about Xonotic doesn´t automatically mean they don´t bother about it or its tools to create content.
(12-15-2013, 04:23 PM)lamefun Wrote:Read the text you quoted before you answer to it. Your babbling doesn´t make any sense.(12-15-2013, 03:59 PM)Maddin Wrote: Besides that, you may want to try out some modelling and mapping yourself and create the maps you want. It´s really not that difficult if you give a try.Did it learn to ignore things obscured by a terrain that's one huge model? Does it ignore invisible parts of the model itself too? Does it generate quality collision brushes from the model?
SORRY FOR BEING OFFTOPIC
RE: Suggestion: Need tribes like outdoor map; need bot learn to use jetpack or hook - lamefun - 12-15-2013
(12-15-2013, 05:19 PM)Maddin Wrote: You can create and edit terrain in NetRadiant too.
Highly inferior to proprieatary tools (no easy smooth texture transitions, no easy sculpting).
(12-15-2013, 05:19 PM)Maddin Wrote: No level editor is capable of editing meshes directly because it´s a level editor and not a modelling/sculpting program.
Of course, but they generally include specialized sculpting system for terrain.
CryEngine:
Crysis has a magnificent level editors, you can even test the level in the editor itself!
Unity's:
(12-15-2013, 05:19 PM)Maddin Wrote: It´s the same with game engines that are not open-source. Unreal/CryEngine and Maya/3DSMax/Mudbox/etc., to mention the most common ones, are limited the same way.
For small models only (crates, individual trees). In case of terrain and its vegetation cover modelling by hand is especially painful and time-consuming, so proprietary level editors added tools to do them easily.
RE: Suggestion: Need tribes like outdoor map; need bot learn to use jetpack or hook - Halogene - 12-15-2013
lamefun, please don't abuse other people's threads to generate awareness for your ideology. If you feel the need to further propagate the use of DRM and closed source software, use a dedicated thread for your own, or, even better, just add it to the one you already created. This thread is about suggesting the creation of outdoor maps and to make bots use jetpack and/or hook.
RE: Suggestion: Need tribes like outdoor map; need bot learn to use jetpack or hook - zwz - 12-15-2013
http://dev.xonotic.org/projects/3/wiki/Maps
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So how do I download the maps there, for example, Arahia? I can't find it in this link:
http://dev.xonotic.org/projects/xonotic/repository/xonotic-maps/revisions/master/show/maps
RE: Suggestion: Need tribes like outdoor map; need bot learn to use jetpack or hook - tZork - 12-15-2013
lamefun has a few point in that some prop. software is more streamlined / noob friendly. he/she/it seem to have zero experience with anything of the sort tough, as unity's terrain editor, used as example, is downright teribad.
lamefun Wrote:Also, as far I know, if the whole terrain is one model, DarkPlaces will render the whole model and will not ignore unseen parts, since its invisible part clipping mechanism only works with brushes, so you have to care about that manually, too.is plain wrong, as if ideological trolling was not bad enough, you have no real idea what you're attacking. go mod crysis or whatever floats you're boat. trolling the omniscience of almighty proprietary software and DRM has no place what so ever on this forum. it adds nothing to anything relevant so please just go away.
Now, with the obligatory troll-flambe done here's a few pointers.
Models added as misc_model are broken down into something similar to a pile of detail brushes at map compile. So it can sure be partially culled. You still need something to produce vis-blocking of course (or distance cull) to make it happen.
Static mesh render's rather fast in dp; you don't need to worry that much abut world poly count. The big problem with open/outdoor maps in Xonotic is the lack of a suitable culling method for such maps. This is bad since even tough the world usually render fast enough, animated models and effects are rather expensive. Creative use of things like "caulk skeletons", distance cull and perhaps even warpzones can go a long way tough.
Heres a map i did exploring the concept of rather large maps in Xonotic: http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=3203 I would not call it eve close to the best that ca be done; but at least it does demo how to do some of the fundamental things needed (huge terrain, blends, culling)
The a branch for it is tzork/map-topoftheworld and there's also tzork/map-blendtut for a less convoluted example of the techniques involved.
RE: Suggestion: Need tribes like outdoor map; need bot learn to use jetpack or hook - Mirio - 12-15-2013
(12-15-2013, 09:56 PM)zwz Wrote: http://dev.xonotic.org/projects/3/wiki/Maps
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So how do I download the maps there, for example, Arahia? I can't find it in this link:
http://dev.xonotic.org/projects/xonotic/repository/xonotic-maps/revisions/master/show/maps
http://download.unconnected-clan.de/maps/
Arahia not there apparently, but Arboria is big too.
RE: Suggestion: Need tribes like outdoor map; need bot learn to use jetpack or hook - aa - 12-16-2013
Lamefun is getting seriously annoying....
(12-15-2013, 04:23 PM)lamefun Wrote:Stop being lazy, Lamefun.(12-15-2013, 03:59 PM)Maddin Wrote: ... lamefun doesn´t know anything about modelling programs nor level editors at all ... Blender ...
The problem is, proprietary level editors allow you to easily sculpt the terrain inside the editor itself, very easy and user-friendly, you can immediately see how it relates to items / players / buildings. Modelling in Blender has a long test cycle: you have to blindly edit the terrain without seeing your brushes, texturing is complicated (as you don't have NetRadiant's texture palette in Blender, so you have to import each image, care about texture scale, etc. manually), you have to care about exporting, texture scale, shader names. Also, as far I know, if the whole terrain is one model, DarkPlaces will render the whole model and will not ignore unseen parts, since its invisible part clipping mechanism only works with brushes, so you have to care about that manually, too. So people just don't bother.
(12-15-2013, 03:59 PM)Maddin Wrote: Besides that, you may want to try out some modelling and mapping yourself and create the maps you want. It´s really not that difficult if you give a try.
Did it learn to ignore things obscured by a terrain that's one huge model? Does it ignore invisible parts of the model itself too? Does it generate quality collision brushes from the model?
RE: Suggestion: Need tribes like outdoor map; need bot learn to use jetpack or hook - freefang - 12-16-2013
I was actually working on an outdoor map once that promoted a bit of a tribes like gameplay style and by design should be pretty easy to optimize compared to some other outdoor maps, but I have not been able to map or play the game for so long that I doubt I'll ever finish it myself. (Maybe someone else would like a go at it if there is a demand for such maps?)
RE: Suggestion: Need tribes like outdoor map; need bot learn to use jetpack or hook - Lee_Stricklin - 12-17-2013
I've been saying that Xonotic supports some Tribes-like gameplay for some time now and I have actually seen a map that had it back during Nexuiz 2.4.2 (look up CTF Evergreen on Nexuiz Ninjaz site). The physics in Xonotic promotes skiing and if we brought in some regenerating jetpacks and terrain maps, as well as more refinements to the vehicles that exist in the game, we'd have a game that can directly compete with Tribes 4 in addition to being able to go toe to toe with Unreal Tournament and Warsow.
RE: Suggestion: Need tribes like outdoor map; need bot learn to use jetpack or hook - zwz - 12-17-2013
(12-17-2013, 06:50 AM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: I've been saying that Xonotic supports some Tribes-like gameplay for some time now and I have actually seen a map that had it back during Nexuiz 2.4.2 (look up CTF Evergreen on Nexuiz Ninjaz site). The physics in Xonotic promotes skiing and if we brought in some regenerating jetpacks and terrain maps, as well as more refinements to the vehicles that exist in the game, we'd have a game that can directly compete with Tribes 4 in addition to being able to go toe to toe with Unreal Tournament and Warsow.Now jetpacks DO regenerate, as long as you get low on jetpack fuel. Vehicles are not major concern since tribes players don't use it as much in battlefield (from what I am gathering on youtube). Jetpack+skiing provide an efficient fast movement method.
Xonotic is even better than tribes because jetpack alone can provide horizontal acceleration, no need of terrain slopes. In tribes you need to slide down hill to get faster, and jetpacks only thrust you up vertically.
An ideal outdoor map does not need to be complicated in texture or polygon or geometry. We can refer to some classic maps in tribes 1 and 2
Or we can start with something simpler: let bot learn to use jetpack. Even in indoor maps, that will result in some interesting aerial combat. This does not need to change the current waypoint system, and the idea is simple: A bot has a possibility to trigger jetpack when it jumps.
RE: Suggestion: Need tribes like outdoor map; need bot learn to use jetpack or hook - end user - 12-17-2013
Good Jetpack maps
http://eu.killer.xxx/mofo/spirecontrol_xon.pk3
http://eu.killer.xxx/mofo/ut4_superman_b4.pk3
http://eu.killer.xxx/mofo/treasureisland_v2.pk3
http://eu.killer.xxx/mofo/lord-of-the-moths_v1r1.pk3
http://eu.killer.xxx/mofo/RockyHills_v1r1.pk3
RE: Suggestion: Need tribes like outdoor map; need bot learn to use jetpack or hook - Mario - 12-17-2013
Bots can actually use the jetpack, but they may need special waypoints.
RE: Suggestion: Need tribes like outdoor map; need bot learn to use jetpack or hook - end user - 12-17-2013
(12-17-2013, 03:01 PM)Mario Wrote: Bots can actually use the jetpack, but they may need special waypoints.
Bots can use jet packs but they are really dumb and sometimes none of them fly and other times on the same map they all fly lol.
RE: Suggestion: Need tribes like outdoor map; need bot learn to use jetpack or hook - Lee_Stricklin - 12-17-2013
(12-17-2013, 10:56 AM)zwz Wrote:(12-17-2013, 06:50 AM)Lee_Stricklin Wrote: I've been saying that Xonotic supports some Tribes-like gameplay for some time now and I have actually seen a map that had it back during Nexuiz 2.4.2 (look up CTF Evergreen on Nexuiz Ninjaz site). The physics in Xonotic promotes skiing and if we brought in some regenerating jetpacks and terrain maps, as well as more refinements to the vehicles that exist in the game, we'd have a game that can directly compete with Tribes 4 in addition to being able to go toe to toe with Unreal Tournament and Warsow.Now jetpacks DO regenerate, as long as you get low on jetpack fuel. Vehicles are not major concern since tribes players don't use it as much in battlefield (from what I am gathering on youtube). Jetpack+skiing provide an efficient fast movement method.
Xonotic is even better than tribes because jetpack alone can provide horizontal acceleration, no need of terrain slopes. In tribes you need to slide down hill to get faster, and jetpacks only thrust you up vertically.
An ideal outdoor map does not need to be complicated in texture or polygon or geometry. We can refer to some classic maps in tribes 1 and 2
Vehicles were used heavily in Tribes 2 actually. It's Tribes 4 that hardly anyone touches them (because they're useless). It should also be noted that skiing in Xonotic is almost identical to skiing in Tribes 2 where you glide down hills to gain momentum and use your jetpack to go up slopes to avoid slowing down.
RE: Suggestion: Need tribes like outdoor map; need bot learn to use jetpack or hook - zwz - 12-17-2013
Well, where do you see bots using jetpack? Which map? I haven't seen one and I'd love to see how dumb they use it
RE: Suggestion: Need tribes like outdoor map; need bot learn to use jetpack or hook - end user - 12-17-2013
(12-17-2013, 05:11 PM)zwz Wrote: Well, where do you see bots using jetpack? Which map? I haven't seen one and I'd love to see how dumb they use it
I had a Jetpack server running but wasn't that popular. Hell more people used my FT server with Jetpack votable than the dedicated JP server.
There's a setting to allow bots with jetpacks
Put this in your server.cfg or custom.cfg
Code:
set bot_ai_navigation_jetpack 1RE: Suggestion: Need tribes like outdoor map; need bot learn to use jetpack or hook - zwz - 12-17-2013
Quote:There's a setting to allow bots with jetpacks
Put this in your server.cfg or custom.cfg
Code:set bot_ai_navigation_jetpack 1
Do I put it in gamefolder\server\server.cfg ? I changed it, along with someother settings (changed bot mumbers to 5, set vampire mutator to 1...). Then I started Xonotic, hit creat, and found nothing changed. Those mutators are still unchecked. What's wrong?
RE: Suggestion: Need tribes like outdoor map; need bot learn to use jetpack or hook - end user - 12-17-2013
(12-17-2013, 09:49 PM)zwz Wrote:Quote:There's a setting to allow bots with jetpacks
Put this in your server.cfg or custom.cfg
Code:set bot_ai_navigation_jetpack 1
Do I put it in gamefolder\server\server.cfg ? I changed it, along with someother settings (changed bot mumbers to 5, set vampire mutator to 1...). Then I started Xonotic, hit creat, and found nothing changed. Those mutators are still unchecked. What's wrong?
Are you using windows or Linux? Never tested a server in windows. If in linux your server.cfg file should be in home/user_name/.xonotic/data