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POLL Do you want RTX? Cross-website-post. - Printable Version

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POLL Do you want RTX? Cross-website-post. - ballsystemlord - 02-18-2019

Hey, I heard from 1 of the people that do HW reviews that AMD was considering implementing their very own Ray Tracing eXtensions and looking at what people think of RTX.
I got 5 votes in 23 hours at LQ Sad so I'm trying to reach a larger audience by posting here. Please vote only on 1 site.
If the RTX GPU has Linux support and some games to play would you purchase a GPU with RTX or RTX like HW? 
Bear in mind that AFAIK current Nvidia GPU's do RTX by partially ray tracing the scene (shadows only), at a low resolution. Then use an AI to fill in the missing shadow pixels and finally use the AI (through DLSS), to blow the image way up to 1080p at an astounding ~30fps (in Shadow if the Tomb Raider) Blush !!! Other (FLOSS) implementations appear to have better performance! http://brechpunkt.de/q2vkpt/
My intention is to give AMD some idea of what you guys think.
Some people who have replied thus far think RTX is marketing jargon and/or that this poll is intended to force a technology upon companies.
RTX is not jargon, it is a large portion of current Nvidia GPU's die space. You pay for it.
As for forcing, that was *never* my intention. With AMD about ~1 month ago getting freesync support merged into their driver (leaving the only major thing left being Radeon Chill AFAIK), now is a time when we are considered relevant, at least by one company and have the chance to be included in the conversation!

I'm assuming that if you don't know what RTX is that you want to do your own independent research, but for the lazy here are 2 exelent talks on the matter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrF4k6wJ-do
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT2o_FpNM4g

Feel free to comment also!

Note to voters: Most of the answers that are "no..." become "yes..." if/when Nvidia and AMD do fix the stated problem. And I have listed the common ones.


RE: POLL Do you want RTX? Cross-website-post. - Lyberta - 02-18-2019

The missing option is "No, Nvidia are the worst and intentionally broke Nouveau driver by requiring signed firmware, I will never buy from them".


RE: POLL Do you want RTX? Cross-website-post. - ballsystemlord - 02-18-2019

We are commenting on, about, and for, *both* companies, not just Nvidia. Pick your favorite and vote with them in mind.


RE: POLL Do you want RTX? Cross-website-post. - Lyberta - 02-19-2019

Then it's a bit harder to vote. I'd say when 200$ card can give 100 fps at 2560x1440 with a free driver, sure, I'd use it, otherwise, no. FPS is more important than graphical quality.


RE: POLL Do you want RTX? Cross-website-post. - _para - 02-19-2019

RTX is good enough to render convincing results already. BUT afaik it renders some sample traces and fills the gaps with a trained neural network. So the results are already good enough for gaming. But it's a cheap shortcut while offering for a premium price. When it comes to new consumer-grade tech I'd wait at least 1-2 years till it's:
1) really good
2) affordable
3) has reviews of different sources

If you really want to upgrade your computer I'd go down this list until you're in your price range, do some research on similar cards there and buy the one i'm sure of being a 3-4 year worthy upgrade.


EDIT: shoud've read the post istead of assuming the content based on the title and the usual forum content but that sums up my thought process of this. I have a r9 390x 8gb ram for a while now and I still don't feel like an update is necessary any time soon also considering that gaming companies need to account for the majority not having high end stuff which makes the upgrade process slow enough.


RE: POLL Do you want RTX? Cross-website-post. - ballsystemlord - 02-19-2019

(02-19-2019, 06:00 AM)Lyberta Wrote: Then it's a bit harder to vote. I'd say when 200$ card can give 100 fps at 2560x1440 with a free driver, sure, I'd use it, otherwise, no. FPS is more important than graphical quality.

Lyberta, you seem to be here and on freegamedev, could you post a reply on only one site?
Then "No, the performance is too low. It must be 100x faster to be worth it." would be your answer because then even the cheaper cards would have great performance before you bought (It would, in time, become, "Yes, now the performance is 100x faster and the mid range cards can do 2560x1440").


RE: POLL Do you want RTX? Cross-website-post. - ballsystemlord - 02-19-2019

(02-19-2019, 06:08 AM)_para Wrote: When it comes to new consumer-grade tech I'd wait at least 1-2 years till it's:
1) really good
2) affordable
3) has reviews of different sources

1) You might select the speed increase vote.
2) Price will come down as speed increases (or you could go for the price decrease vote), you'll be able to buy from the mid tier with a 100x increase in speed. But, having an R9 390X 8G, you might go with the option of the "Yes, if it's a different product so that I can buy it separately." because that will decrease price much faster than the industry innovates the technology.
3) In my poll I'm assuming yes for the sake of simplicity.

Quote:_para

EDIT: should've read the post instead of assuming the content based on the title and the usual forum content but that sums up my thought process of this. I have a r9 390x 8gb ram for a while now and I still don't feel like an update is necessary any time soon also considering that gaming companies need to account for the majority not having high end stuff which makes the upgrade process slow enough.
Wink


RE: POLL Do you want RTX? Cross-website-post. - _para - 02-20-2019

Yeah that sounds reasonable problem is I don't know how to edit my vote.
But faster for the current price reads like cheaper current tech in my calculation. I'm not after the latest and greatest but the one that actually fits my needs for the best price/budget.

Did that first vote mean a dedicated rtx card? I understand them like googles TPUs. Which are really good for their task but only good for that (or similar) tasks.
If it's like an upgrade card I could plug next to my card that just extends the functionality I'd buy it if the mid-high range is about 50-80€ else I don't feel like its worth it because in the end the gameplay is what brings the fun while graphics are just a bonus.

Also the last option ("I'll wait till all the bugs are worked out, then I'll buy.") is also what keeps me away. The problem here are the neural nets which are in fact really accurate but there may be some ugly edge cases which require them to be retrained. It would be even worse if the neural net is implemented as hardware.

So in the end it just seems like an over-hyped bonus-feature to me while I kinda understand how big of a step it is going from efficient screen-space-reflections to ray-tracing.


RE: POLL Do you want RTX? Cross-website-post. - ballsystemlord - 02-20-2019

(02-20-2019, 08:35 AM)_para Wrote: Yeah that sounds reasonable problem is I don't know how to edit my vote.
But faster for the current price reads like cheaper current tech in my calculation. I'm not after the latest and greatest but the one that actually fits my needs for the best price/budget.
That is typical for users. Don't think that companies don't know that. I'm that way too.

Quote:Did that first vote mean a dedicated rtx card? I understand them like googles TPUs. Which are really good for their task but only good for that (or similar) tasks. 
If it's like an upgrade card I could plug next to my card that just extends the functionality I'd buy it if the mid-high range is about 50-80€ else I don't feel like its worth it because in the end the gameplay is what brings the fun while graphics are just a bonus.
Either that or a socketed GFX card. During the node shrinks from 32nm down, yields have gotten worse and cost has increased at a greater rate than all previous nodes. A separate die, connected via PCIe, IF, or any other method and sold separately would give users a choice and a better price.

Quote:Also the last option ("I'll wait till all the bugs are worked out, then I'll buy.") is also what keeps me away. The problem here are the neural nets which are in fact really accurate but there may be some ugly edge cases which require them to be retrained. It would be even worse if the neural net is implemented as hardware.

So in the end it just seems like an over-hyped bonus-feature to me while I kinda understand how big of a step it is going from efficient screen-space-reflections to ray-tracing.
NNs (Neural Nets) and ray tracing HW are very different; I'll explain, but I make no guarantee you won't be  Huh .
NNs decide on what "is", based off looking for patterns which are initially really small. A child says "Mommy, look in the clouds is a dragon!" "Yes, dear," the mother responds thinking of how ridiculous it is for her to be expected to find the dragon in the whole sky of clouds based solely on a small child's finger pointing a rough direction.
How does the child do that? They see a mouth, then an eye, then a neck, the next part hardly looks like a body, but who cares? They have found their dragon!
Likewise, upon seeing a tire and a window an AI might conclude that it has found a car, when what it is viewing is a picture of an automotive shop. The developer then marks the AIs answer as wrong and runs the AI on many, many car shops in hopes that the AI never makes that mistake again. Much like the mother wishes that her child would "grow up" and stop seeing things in the clouds.
That was very simplified, but I hope you could follow it. It is a fairly accurate picture of what happens in an AI algorithm.

Ray tracing, OTOH, uses a fixed algorithm to trace light from a source to it's eventual destination. There is no attempt at exacting larger details out of smaller ones. There is no need for "training" the ray tracing HW.

However, it is worth noting that Nvidia does rely on it's AI NNs to a large extent when rendering using RTX.

Huh  or  minstanex ?


RE: POLL Do you want RTX? Cross-website-post. - Lyberta - 02-20-2019

(02-20-2019, 02:08 PM)ballsystemlord Wrote: NNs (Neural Nets) and ray tracing HW are very different; I'll explain, but I make no guarantee you won't be  Huh .

However, it is worth noting that Nvidia does rely on it's AI NNs to a large extent when rendering using RTX.

In that Q2 page it is said that doing each ray for each pixel is too slow so there are neural networks that interpolate pixels for now. And NNs are not just used for classification generally.


RE: POLL Do you want RTX? Cross-website-post. - _para - 02-21-2019

I wouldn't be a fan of sockets. Maybe if it becomes the standard for all boards in about 5 years like soundcards.
While dedicated cards would be stupid in the sense of them only properly working with hardware of the same company and sockets may also on motherboard level. On that end nvidia really seems to be a dick.
But I'd still rather wait for better solutions. I think in some years the graphics cards are worth the hype of now.

No worries I kinda understand NNs but thanks for explaining. (on my github below is a simple backpropagation one in lua and some comments)


RE: POLL Do you want RTX? Cross-website-post. - morosophos - 02-21-2019

I plan to live with my current 1080 GTX for 4-5 years, then I'll see what's there to update it.


RE: POLL Do you want RTX? Cross-website-post. - ballsystemlord - 02-21-2019

(02-20-2019, 08:34 PM)Lyberta Wrote: And NNs are not just used for classification generally.
Obviously I giving a simple explanation that I think can be easily understood. I am not an AI scientist. I have not read all the various papers, and books. I certainly don't have access to budding research in the field like Googe's deepmind AI.


RE: POLL Do you want RTX? Cross-website-post. - ballsystemlord - 02-21-2019

(02-21-2019, 10:48 AM)_para Wrote: No worries I kinda understand NNs but thanks for explaining. (on my github below is a simple backpropagation one in lua and some comments)

Ha! I've only been doing a lot of reading on the subject and you have a whole implementation!


RE: POLL Do you want RTX? Cross-website-post. - ballsystemlord - 02-21-2019

(02-21-2019, 06:12 PM)morosophos Wrote: I plan to live with my current 1080 GTX for 4-5 years, then I'll see what's there to update it.

The whole question was intended to foster a conversation such that I could direct it to AMD and say, "Here's what the Linux community thinks of RTX." (As I [tried to] made clear in my initial post.)
In 4-5 years they would have already made up their minds on the whole RTX debate and we'd be out of luck if we see things differently.
So do please vote. It's not a commitment to buy a GPU any time soon.


RE: POLL Do you want RTX? Cross-website-post. - Lyberta - 02-22-2019

Well, from a more abstract standpoint, ray tracing is pretty old technology. I've spent hundreds of hours waiting for my Team Fortress 2 maps to compile in 2007-2008 and most of that time was computing static lighting via ray tracing. So I kinda have PTSD from that. When I learned that DarkPlaces and Q2/Q3 engines still keep this pipeline I was like "hell, no! never in my life I'm ever waiting for a map to compile ever again". It's a shame there are no FOSS games on Doom 3 engine except The Dark Mod because Doom 3 no longer precomputes lighting.

So if the hardware can do this in real time, it means no more PTSD'd mappers and very clean rendering code. We're just not there yet.


RE: POLL Do you want RTX? Cross-website-post. - ballsystemlord - 02-27-2019

The poll should end tonight (in about 6 and 1/2 hours).
If you did not vote yet you still have a chance.