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IRC Moderation Abuse by MrBougo

#1
I have been banned from #xonotic. I prefer to keep the politics out of this thread and focus on the moderation action.

MrBougo has deliberately misrepresented my beliefs after the point I am not in the channel to represent them. He has also mischaracterized my dissenting point of view as "trolling" and "harassment" while attacking me for not accepting his. My last comment that got me banned did not ping him. Furthermore, this is not Discord, and there is no 'green dot' that notifies me whether he's AFK or not.

I have my own IRC logs, and I do not use the word "subhuman" to refer to transgender patients or GRS/SRS victims. CTRL+F 'subhuman', and it is MrBougo that uses the word.  You can keep the 2 week ban, but I believe MrBougo should resign as moderator.

23:40 <+MrBougo> To anyone wondering what happened, there was a preceding discussion a couple of days ago where I gave him a warning for condoning the online harrassment of trans men, within the context of an also very unpleasant discussion. He has trolled me multiple times before, starting arguments with me in subtext when he knew I'd be around to respond.

23:40 <+MrBougo> He has not once shown any willingness to apologize, show understanding, back down or anything else. Except for calming down when he realized he was at risk of a ban two days ago.

23:49 <+MrBougo> I have no time and energy to debunk his points and I don't feel like I should have to. I hope everyone here understands that. Listen to the trans people around you, understand what they go through. Their stories are worth hearing if they choose to share them. They are framed as immature or subhuman by the likes of Antares. Don't fall for this.
Xonotic exists for a long time and low player count is the proof that nobody wants to play Xonotic since it is a bad game by default.
- Lyberta, 2017

#2
being banned from #xonotic looks more like a bliss to me "Big Grin"
<XSAX> in the world there are many more important things than talking about gays

[Image: dd7pGMB.png]

#3
I am really sorry that you feel angry after been banned.

If you feel concerned by transgender, or more generally interested by topics related to LGBT or even woman sexuality, I think that you should join a dedicated forum. Then you can express your mind and ask your questions.
I am not sure that the Xonotics chat is the right place to do this.
Furthermore, I am not sure that you will find here a lot of people to answer your questions.
If you want to talk about sexuality or polarized topics with xonotic players, maybe you can do it in a private chat ?

Please take into account that minorities play Xonotics with you and can be hurt or harassed after reading inappropriate or disrespectful content.
I tried to explain this here : https://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=8510
Some server administrators shared their point of view and proposed to "clean" their server.

Concerning Mr Bougo, I think that this community is incredibly lucky to have him. 
He shown a lot of humans value and tolerance. He is diplomate, can have empathy, is able understand a lot of problems. He is smart and always measured.
I find that it is not nice to attack him.

#4
(02-16-2021, 05:21 AM)Antares* Wrote: My last comment that got me banned did not ping him. Furthermore, this is not Discord, and there is no 'green dot' that notifies me whether he's AFK or not
I don't see how this is related to the question of whether this was admin abuse, so why do you bring that up? MrBougo being AFK doesn't change what you said.
(02-16-2021, 05:21 AM)Antares* Wrote: I do not use the word "subhuman" to refer to transgender patients or GRS/SRS victims.
I'm pretty sure that in a certain other discussion you stated that one doesn't have to use insults to indicate what they think about someone else.

I could quote some of your lines from a certain other discussion, but I honestly think that my time is wasted on you

#5
(02-16-2021, 10:20 AM)Freddy Wrote: I don't see how this is related to the question of whether this was admin abuse, so why do you bring that up? MrBougo being AFK doesn't change what you said.
He's claiming I'm trolling him. Except that doesn't make sense when my comments weren't even directed at him.
(02-16-2021, 10:20 AM)Freddy Wrote: I'm pretty sure that in a certain other discussion you stated that one doesn't have to use insults to indicate what they think about someone else.
That doesn't give anyone, not MrBougo nor you, a pass to willfully misrepresent me or anyone.
Xonotic exists for a long time and low player count is the proof that nobody wants to play Xonotic since it is a bad game by default.
- Lyberta, 2017

#6
(02-16-2021, 10:20 AM)Freddy Wrote: I'm pretty sure that in a certain other discussion you stated that one doesn't have to use insults to indicate what they think about someone else.

I could quote some of your lines from a certain other discussion, but I honestly think that my time is wasted on you

No, it was me who said that. And i also said that banning people for using certain words will lead to cotton-mouthing and a culture of "shallowness"  and shut down of honest discussions because one must always fear the bannhammer no matter how "sweet" he speaks his opinion.
The reply about that basically was  that there are other options than banning people. Funny to see how well that other options worked out...
But i don't want to be part of this discussion. I'm already worried about being the next person getting banned, i just considered it my duty to make clear that it wasn't Antares saying that. It was me and you pulled it out of context and make it seem like i planed to be rude or insulting to someone. That wasn't said at all.

#7
(02-06-2021, 05:11 PM)Antares* Wrote: So you're an adult or at least a teenager, and you're crying over words on the internet?
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#8
(02-16-2021, 11:55 AM)NoClue Wrote:
(02-16-2021, 10:20 AM)Freddy Wrote: I'm pretty sure that in a certain other discussion you stated that one doesn't have to use insults to indicate what they think about someone else.

I could quote some of your lines from a certain other discussion, but I honestly think that my time is wasted on you

No, it was me who said that. And i also said that banning people for using certain words will lead to cotton-mouthing and a culture of "shallowness"  and shut down of honest discussions because one must always fear the bannhammer no matter how "sweet" he speaks his opinion.
The reply about that basically was  that there are other options than banning people. Funny to see how well that other options worked out...
But i don't want to be part of this discussion. I'm already worried about being the next person getting banned, i just considered it my duty to make clear that it wasn't Antares saying that. It was me and you pulled it out of context and make it seem like i planed to be rude or insulting to someone. That wasn't said at all.

It's interesting that you immediately claim that I will ban you. The only people (or bots) that I've banned were spammers. Is this your only argument?

It doesn't really matter if Antares or you provided that argument. His other responses made clear that he thinks the same way.
Can you explain to me how I pulled your argument out of context? How do I make you seem rude by acknowledging that insults can be hidden in fluffy words?

I know well that I won't change the way Antares or you think, no matter how good I or anyone else argues or points out flaws in your logic or behavior. You already put me in the "SJW camp" because I argued against you. You live in an information bubble and try to create a personal safe space where anyone outside of it is a leftist.
All I really hope to accomplish with my posts is that other people reflect about themselves and don't position them in such a bubble.

I also know that this thread won't be a discussion thread. Just an emotional Antares, crying about how offended he is and that the other group (in this case the "SJW"/"leftists") are evil.

#9
(02-16-2021, 02:15 PM)Freddy Wrote: I also know that this thread won't be a discussion thread. Just an emotional Antares, crying about how offended he is and that the other group (in this case the "SJW"/"leftists") are evil.
Well here you go again. You don't even understand my beliefs or try. You're going down the same path of misrepresentation. For someone who dislikes the SJW label, you're really following the same pattern of behavior.

Add: you already misattributed a different conversation to me. So I find how you are handling this situation laughable.

(02-16-2021, 02:10 PM)Mirio Wrote:
(02-06-2021, 05:11 PM)Antares* Wrote: So you're an adult or at least a teenager, and you're crying over words on the internet?
Unlike the thread topic you have pulled this quote from, my opening post does not mention "crying". :p
Xonotic exists for a long time and low player count is the proof that nobody wants to play Xonotic since it is a bad game by default.
- Lyberta, 2017

#10
Having kept up with some of the discussions on the IRC channel, I can say that Mr. Bougo has been very patient and understanding. As a fellow moderator, I fully support his actions there; a warning was given and the ban is only temporary.

In the spirits of maintaining a clean and supportive community for Xonotic, let's please keep it civil.
[Image: 230.png]

#11
(02-17-2021, 02:39 AM)Mario Wrote: Having kept up with some of the discussions on the IRC channel, I can say that Mr. Bougo has been very patient and understanding. As a fellow moderator, I fully support his actions there; a warning was given and the ban is only temporary.

In the spirits of maintaining a clean and supportive community for Xonotic, let's please keep it civil.

Unfortunately, he was both lying about me and namecalling. That's why I disagree with his actions.
Xonotic exists for a long time and low player count is the proof that nobody wants to play Xonotic since it is a bad game by default.
- Lyberta, 2017

#12
Antares, go in the forest, breath and run... free your mind and run... just run!
Antares, take a lesson of piano : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5JUV825...eterPlutaX
Antares, try another game, https://play0ad.com/
Antares, read a book, read the wikipedia and try to understand the world, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_wave
Antares, learn a foreign language, lean Krav Maga, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY8BejD7...University

#13
(02-16-2021, 02:43 PM)Antares* Wrote:
(02-16-2021, 02:15 PM)Freddy Wrote: I also know that this thread won't be a discussion thread. Just an emotional Antares, crying about how offended he is and that the other group (in this case the "SJW"/"leftists") are evil.
Well here you go again. You don't even understand my beliefs or try. You're going down the same path of misrepresentation. For someone who dislikes the SJW label, you're really following the same pattern of behavior.

Add: you already misattributed a different conversation to me. So I find how you are handling this situation laughable.
I honestly don't care if you or anybody else puts a label on me. Call me whatever you like.
I've seen enough of your statements to get a picture of your believes. It's not like I only know you for a short while.

It's interesting that you didn't realize that I misattributed the "conversation" about "fluffy words" to you until someone else mentioned my mistake. You even responded to my statement without ever mentioning my mistake. Do you suddenly disagree with the statement that one can dress up insults in "fluffy words"?
It was not even a conversation, but a simple statement. It doesn't matter at all who said it. Is your strongest argument against me that I didn't remember who made a statement that I (and apparently also you as otherwise you would have said something against it immediately) agree on?

#14
(02-17-2021, 11:20 AM)Freddy Wrote: I honestly don't care if you or anybody else puts a label on me. Call me whatever you like.
I've seen enough of your statements to get a picture of your believes. It's not like I only know you for a short while.

It's interesting that you didn't realize that I misattributed the "conversation" about "fluffy words" to you until someone else mentioned my mistake. You even responded to my statement without ever mentioning my mistake. Do you suddenly disagree with the statement that one can dress up insults in "fluffy words"?
So you're basically reacting to me based on a "picture of me" (something you fabricated)? I wasn't going to audit a several days long IRC log on the spot. But the point still stands. I have been lied about and some people like you agree with the lie. (Your "picture" of me is close enough.) 
You might be right that I'm against the status quo. But banning someone for gender critical, anti-transmedicalist, or feminist talking points, or questioning studies with methodology crises and profit motives, is biased moderation to begin with. A lot of what MrBougo is saying post-ban about me is false.
Xonotic exists for a long time and low player count is the proof that nobody wants to play Xonotic since it is a bad game by default.
- Lyberta, 2017

#15
I chose not to interact with this thread in hope of... something I'm not totally clear about actually. I suppose I preferred to stay out of it to give you the benefit of the doubt. Of which I have very little left for you by now, to be honest.

I will expand on my two reasons for banning you, and hopefully dispel the idea that I am mischaracterising you, at least up to the level that you are mischaracterising me.

I should not be taking that much of my time to respond to your claims, but here goes.


The main reason for which I have banned you, which you have left out of this thread, and for which I should have banned you earlier in fact, is as follows.

At three different times in the IRC channel, you have linked to either one of two threads from an imageboard similar to kiwifarms. You did so to illustrate that people were authentically against trans people as political subjects, to prove your point of there existing such an opposition.

In those threads, the users catalogue trans people on the web and comment on them in the most spiteful and hateful ways. The kind of interaction that goes on there is very reminiscent of raiding / organised online harassment: deeply personal insults, belittlement, screenshots of social media accounts. Before you point out that the rules of the board states that harassment and raiding are forbidden: well of course they are.

This is what I referred to as transphobia and dehumanisation, and this is why I said of trans people that "They are framed as immature or subhuman by the likes of Antares", as you quoted in your OP.

I said "by the likes of Antares" and said you were condoning the behaviour displayed in those threads because you shared the links without an ounce of criticism or disapproval. My take is that you have perused those threads and found them worthy of being shared to support your stance. This is not to say your stance is the same as theirs, but I have not seen signs of the opposite either, even after giving you plenty of time and prompts to do so.

So I stand by what I said. Your sharing of those threads was irresponsible and a bannable offense in and of itself. If anything that is said in those threads was said on our forums or chats instead, it would unequivocally be considered a bannable offense. I would be wary myself to give visibility to that kind of hateful content, even if it were to illustrate the opposite point (i.e., that I find it despicable). Sharing it uncritically as you did reads the same as supporting those views, and I have zero tolerance for that.


On to the trolling part. I'll give an overview of what my interactions have been with you on the IRC channel over the course of a few days. Maybe it'll help to show why I have called you a troll. Timezone for the logs is Central European Time. I made it explicit where I abridged the logs, except when the lines I cut had zero relevance to the discussion (e.g., joins/parts).


The first ping I received from you, I don't take issue with:

Quote:
2021-02-08 20:34:58 <Antares> MrBougo, did she even PM you

We had a followup conversation where I felt I responded reasonably and charitably.

One thing of note to me however, is that you did not back down from calling Lara a troll after I told you some of her claims were backed by chatlogs and showed you my summary those logs. Quoting you in response to me saying she's not a troll because of those documents: "thats just how you think" and "everyone else can not verify it".


The next day, you pinged me with this, where "he" is referring to Freddy who you called a white knight (in his absence) a couple minutes before:
Quote:
2021-02-09 21:15:31 <Antares> he and mrbougo can write gender studies essays and so forth
(...)
2021-02-09 21:16:20 <Antares> so they can circlejerk about "u poor 50.7% minority population of the entire human population"

Notable followup excerpt after I responded to the ping:
Quote:
2021-02-09 21:20:51 <MrBougo> I mean, we probably don't agree on what makes it a waste of time but yes, I feel like my time has been wasted for having to repeat myself
2021-02-09 21:21:10 <Antares> wow did u write those essays for ur gender studies class?
2021-02-09 21:21:34 <MrBougo> why the snark, though?
2021-02-09 21:21:57 <Antares> because you deserve it
2021-02-09 21:22:12 <MrBougo> honest question, do you think I want us to get along?
2021-02-09 21:23:02 <Antares> maybe you want it, but you dont realize what you're doing is to the complete opposite effect
2021-02-09 21:24:12 <MrBougo> My understanding is that you are saying it's my fault that this discussion makes it impossible to get along
2021-02-09 21:24:32 <mini> nani
2021-02-09 21:25:22 <Antares> that feel when your gender studies education supplants every other social skill you could possible have


Two days later, no ping, but from our previous interactions it would have been more surprising to you if I had not responded.
Quote:
2021-02-11 00:05:47 <Antares> holy shit that forum thread is still going
2021-02-11 00:05:53 <Antares> im fucking cringing
2021-02-11 00:06:15 <Antares> do you guys literally think that is the only girl / woman to have ever played that game
2021-02-11 00:07:05 <Antares> im going to die of second hand embarassment

We had an interesting discussion thereafter about my role as a moderator in our discussions and you perceiving me as a threat. At this stage I had made no threat of silencing anyone, so I must highlight how aware you are of it being a risk. This is relevant when interpreting what comes next.


Two days later, no ping, and no immediate response from me:
Quote:
2021-02-13 20:23:29 <Antares> wow i thought that thread couldnt get any worse
2021-02-13 20:23:39 <Antares> where the fuck pendulla
2021-02-13 20:24:10 <Antares> god fucking damni t why did he have to fuel that giils [VICTIM COMPLEX]
2021-02-13 20:25:03 <Antares> the one thing i feel sorry for homosexuals about: their identity is nu-speaked to a corporate astroturf campaign
2021-02-13 20:25:24 <Antares> or well sexual orientation specifically
2021-02-13 20:26:02 <Antares> this thread is a monolith of bait
2021-02-13 20:26:44 <Antares> GOD FUCKING DAMN IT PENDULLA
2021-02-13 20:27:57 <Antares> you all should just go back to arguing in your native languages
2021-02-13 20:28:17 <Antares> god fucking damn it xonotie

I'm fine with venting, but when it's directed at specific people you can expect them not to take it too well.


Next day, addressing me by quoting a post from me on Lara's thread:
Quote:
2021-02-14 10:27:57 <Antares> >This stuff is rough. Anyone saying Lara should toughen up doesn't realize the energy that it takes to put yourself in that flag-bearing position.
2021-02-14 10:28:03 <Antares> t. Mr Bougo, 2021
2021-02-14 10:28:14 <Antares> xonotie halp i am crying at my desk from sexual harassment
2021-02-14 10:28:38 <Antares> i was -1:30'd in aerowalk. i felt the rape

I don't believe that choice of words ("rape" seconds after mocking Lara's claims of sexual harassment) was accidental, and I don't believe you were surprised that I reacted badly to that.


Later that day (or next day for your timezone I guess) we had our first big spat during which I gave you a warning for linking to the image board:
Quote:
2021-02-14 23:22:09 <MrBougo> You're linking me to a thread where people catalogue the social media profile of people they consider as "fakebois".
2021-02-14 23:22:39 <MrBougo> You can't hide behind civility while condoning that sort of behavior
2021-02-14 23:23:04 <MrBougo> I don't care if I'm misinterpreting this, you're getting the banhammer if you do this one more time. This is a warning.
(...)
2021-02-14 23:26:30 <Antares> you were JUST about to ban me for linking to a site ive linked to before
2021-02-14 23:26:42 <Antares> and this whole talk against medical treatments
2021-02-14 23:26:50 <MrBougo> I did not click your link before minutes ago
2021-02-14 23:27:41 <Antares> it wont totally be a politically motivated ban, right?
2021-02-14 23:27:52 <MrBougo> I called you out and gave you a warning for promoting abusive behaviour.
2021-02-14 23:27:53 <Antares> if you dont like being called an SJW is that NOT precisely what SJWs do?
2021-02-14 23:27:58 <Antares> against you?
2021-02-14 23:28:07 <Antares> im abusing you?
2021-02-14 23:28:09 <MrBougo> who cares against whom
2021-02-14 23:28:34 <Antares> for a case of abuse?
2021-02-14 23:28:37 <Antares> are you serious?
2021-02-14 23:28:38 <MrBougo> you're not abusing me but you are showcasing and condoning abuse of one group toward another

It took you all but 8 minutes to start cherry-picking to mischaracterise my intent:
Quote:
2021-02-14 23:33:52 <Antares> you cant ban your way to social acceptance tbh
2021-02-14 23:34:14 <MrBougo> I can ban my way to peace of mind tho. It's not my preferred avenue.
2021-02-14 23:34:29 <Antares> you can try. but people will find a way and it just drives the wedge further
2021-02-14 23:34:47 <Antares> thanks for admitting that.
2021-02-14 23:34:49 <MrBougo> hello, you've been a good wedge-driver yourself today
(...)
2021-02-14 23:35:40 <Antares> i don tban people for opinions
2021-02-14 23:35:57 <MrBougo> I don't either, I hope you understand that.
(...)
2021-02-14 23:36:26 <Antares> t0uYK8Ne, it will not cross my mind to ban people for my personal peace of mind


Two days later, a little under three hours after mikeeusa pinged me, got banned, and with no activity inbetween, you broke the silence to back him up:
Quote:
2021-02-16 08:17:59 <Antares> why yes, exploiting mentally vulnerable people with irreversible procedures and surgery is wrong morally
2021-02-16 08:18:07 <Antares> broken clock is at least right sometimes

I objected to it and stated this:
Quote:
2021-02-16 08:23:17 <MrBougo> I consider what you did there trolling. You're validating mikeeusa's point to rile me up.

You then started describing gender reassignment surgery in graphic detail completely unprompted, during which I banned you.


I hope this all helps people understand the context of this part of your OP, which I earnestly thank you for quoting:
(02-16-2021, 05:21 AM)Antares* Wrote: 23:40 <+MrBougo> To anyone wondering what happened, there was a preceding discussion a couple of days ago where I gave him a warning for condoning the online harrassment of trans men, within the context of an also very unpleasant discussion. He has trolled me multiple times before, starting arguments with me in subtext when he knew I'd be around to respond.

23:40 <+MrBougo> He has not once shown any willingness to apologize, show understanding, back down or anything else. Except for calming down when he realized he was at risk of a ban two days ago.

23:49 <+MrBougo> I have no time and energy to debunk his points and I don't feel like I should have to. I hope everyone here understands that. Listen to the trans people around you, understand what they go through. Their stories are worth hearing if they choose to share them. They are framed as immature or subhuman by the likes of Antares. Don't fall for this.

#16
With that being said, since you seem intent on making this personal, I will extend the two-week ban to this forum. I have been open about this with the Xonotic team.

I have no intent of stepping down and I take full responsibility for my decision for now.

#17
(02-16-2021, 02:15 PM)BuFreddy Wrote:
(02-16-2021, 11:55 AM)NoClue Wrote:
(02-16-2021, 10:20 AM)Freddy Wrote: I'm pretty sure that in a certain other discussion you stated that one doesn't have to use insults to indicate what they think about someone else.

I could quote some of your lines from a certain other discussion, but I honestly think that my time is wasted on you

No, it was me who said that. And i also said that banning people for using certain words will lead to cotton-mouthing and a culture of "shallowness"  and shut down of honest discussions because one must always fear the bannhammer no matter how "sweet" he speaks his opinion.
The reply about that basically was  that there are other options than banning people. Funny to see how well that other options worked out...
But i don't want to be part of this discussion. I'm already worried about being the next person getting banned, i just considered it my duty to make clear that it wasn't Antares saying that. It was me and you pulled it out of context and make it seem like i planed to be rude or insulting to someone. That wasn't said at all.

It's interesting that you immediately claim that I will ban you. The only people (or bots) that I've banned were spammers. Is this your only argument?

It doesn't really matter if Antares or you provided that argument. His other responses made clear that he thinks the same way.


What's the "same way"? Why are you projecting? The only thing me and Antares MIGHT have in common is that we're agains banning trashtalk. And what other "arguments" i'm supposed to have when the only thing i wanted to do is stepping in when you projected things i said on Antares. You should be more careful about that when you're building a "full picture" of a person with things he never said.
You can read my Opinion about this whole topic in the other thread.  
I made it clear that i'm not here to insult anyone. It's you who want to believe that i'm something like a troublemaker and it's you who want to push me into the "troll corner". And such a person i'm supposed to "trust" when he says he won't bann me for discussing such things? You find that funny? Really? You might instead question yourself why i lost my trust in you. You also might question yourself if you're reply would be as toxic and passive aggressive if my name was Lara.

Edit: Oh and don't worry. I'm not mad about your toxicity, no hard feelings. No need to say sorry or reflecting yourself. And don't worry i wont open up a thread about that and telling everyone how toxic i have been treaten by the xonotic community. Because in the End i know we just share different opinions about certain things and it got a bit heated.
I just don't trust you as a moderator anymore. But i guess you're okay with that. So it's pointless to go on with that and i think we both made our Opinions pretty clear.

#18
Everyone is entitled to their opinions, of course. Discussion of them on our various communications channels, however, is not always appropriate. As moderators of these various comm channels we reserve the right to remove individuals who exhibit vitriol and/or harassment. This is one such case, and we've had a couple others in recent history.

After having read through the logs, I fully support Mr. Bougo's actions here. He's not being toxic at all, but rather quite protective of this community (and for that I'm thankful!). As for his moderation capabilities, let me state: not many would go to such lengths to document and substantiate their actions.
asyyy^ | are you releated to chuck norris?

#19
(02-18-2021, 03:38 AM)NoClue Wrote: What's the "same way"? Why are you projecting? The only thing me and Antares MIGHT have in common is that we're agains banning trashtalk.
Since I was talking about "that argument", I though it would be clear that I meant that Antares and you both think that "fluffy words" can hide insults. That is all that I said with that statement. Next time I will make sure that noone can misunderstand me.
(02-18-2021, 03:38 AM)NoClue Wrote: And what other "arguments" i'm supposed to have when the only thing i wanted to do is stepping in when you projected things i said on Antares
You could have corrected my mistake without any comment, but you chose to add a hidden argument. This lead me to believe that you didn't want to stay out of this discussion.
(02-16-2021, 11:55 AM)NoClue Wrote: I'm already worried about being the next person getting banned
I could have called it "intentional mischaracterization" or "bad-mouthing", but I chose not to as I understood that as your real "fear" and don't think that mischaracterizing you will do any of us a favor.
(02-18-2021, 03:38 AM)NoClue Wrote: You should be more careful about that when you're building a "full picture" of a person with things he never said.
Antares and I are both part of this community for a long time. Have you considered that he might have said something similar or agreed to it in another context? I could nitpick that I never said "full" picture. I've only seen what he chose to show publicly.
(02-18-2021, 03:38 AM)NoClue Wrote: I made it clear that i'm not here to insult anyone. It's you who want to believe that i'm something like a troublemaker and it's you who want to push me into the "troll corner".
Can you show me where I called you "troublemaker" or "troll"? Honestly, I don't think that you're intentionally sexist or racist. At least you didn't show it and I don't have a "full picture". I just think that you never really considered what emotional background other people have.
(02-18-2021, 03:38 AM)NoClue Wrote: And such a person i'm supposed to "trust" when he says he won't bann me for discussing such things?
I could say the same thing about "full picture".
(02-18-2021, 03:38 AM)NoClue Wrote: You find that funny? Really?
No. Search this thread and you will find that you are the only one who used the word "funny". Antares used the word "laughable". I don't see any similar words. I don't have the slightest bit of fun in this thread.
(02-18-2021, 03:38 AM)NoClue Wrote: You also might question yourself if you're reply would be as toxic and passive aggressive if my name was Lara.

You make it seem as if my replies to you are extremely toxic. I thought that you dislike hiding true intentions in "fluffy words", so I chose to be more straightforward (I still wouldn't consider that toxic). If I have a discussion with someone who gets emotionally stressed easily, then of course I choose different words and phrases in order to keep the discussion calm and rational.
(02-18-2021, 03:38 AM)NoClue Wrote: Because in the End i know we just share different opinions about certain things
I'm not sure if our opinions are as different as you think. Your latest post has a different vibe than the posts claiming that I'm eager to ban people. Our opinions will surely not align, but maybe they will be close enough to get along in a respectful way

#20
MrBougo, I'm a little annoyed.  You've stated the ban was about linking an inappropriate imageboard but you were the one who claimed drugs and surgery were the best known care.  If you're not willing to hear the other side after making highly-contentious claims in IRC, why did you choose to argue there in the first place instead of asking the conversation be moved elsewhere?  Scolding others for not accepting your ideas and defending theirs is not reasonable behavior.  Neither is taking the convenient out of claiming that facts and opinions you don't want to see or be seen are trolling.  You're entitled to your opinions but others are not?

I think you have certain dogmatic beliefs that you will not allow to be questioned and that's what this ban was really about.

#21
(02-21-2021, 11:32 PM)mini Wrote: MrBougo, I'm a little annoyed.  You've stated the ban was about linking an inappropriate imageboard but you were the one who claimed drugs and surgery were the best known care.  If you're not willing to hear the other side after making highly-contentious claims in IRC, why did you choose to argue there in the first place instead of asking the conversation be moved elsewhere?  Scolding others for not accepting your ideas and defending theirs is not reasonable behavior.  Neither is taking the convenient out of claiming that facts and opinions you don't want to see or be seen are trolling.  You're entitled to your opinions but others are not?

I think you have certain dogmatic beliefs that you will not allow to be questioned and that's what this ban was really about.

Sorry that it rubs you the wrong way, mini. I understand that we have a disagreement in our opinions on the matter. Do note that I have heard this other side that you mention, and I have been hearing it for years. (Besides, I do not see what highly-contentious claims you are referring to. My reference to standards of care? I would be surprised. But I don't want to bring that conversation in here.)

Yes, my opinions did play a role in this decision. I do not see that as a problem. My drive as a moderator is to make this community a good and welcoming place. I have a lot of sympathy for queer people and their struggle, broadly speaking, so you can expect me to defend them if someone threatens their place in this community. That is not a bias you can remove from me, so aside from removing me from the moderation team I do not see what we can do about this. But again, my values are not the problem here if you ask me.

Indeed, if you read my post again, you will notice I have made sufficient effort to justify the ban of Antares outside of those considerations. I do not believe I am coddling anyone with that decision aside from the community at large. I saw behaviour that was harmful to the community and took action against it.

If I had not held back for so long (as evidenced by the logs), given a fair warning and consulted the rest of the team on my reaction to that situation, I would take the criticism that my decision was made out of bias. But I think that is a unfair way to represent it, considering the above.

#22
Xonotic indeed is lucky to have Mr.Bougo here. I wonder who would have had the patience to deal with this so carefully and well-balanced. Thank you for your amazing job! <3
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#23
MrBougo, you're still not hearing the other side.  Many are concerned that it's being pushed on children.  The UK thought that was important enough to address that concern (https://www.segm.org/Keira_Bell_ruling_g...ercussions).  You wrote a lot to frame Antares as a troll when the concerns I saw being expressed were concern for children and for the mentally ill that are neither gender dysphoric nor trans but are falling into something for the sake of community and acceptance.  Those are not uncommon views and I see nothing -phobic about asking if treatments of permanent consequence are the best option when some studies suggest that they are and others focus on the permanent damage and suicide rates.  Chemical or surgical castration, endocrine system failure, other organ failure and possible increases in suicide rates should be considered carefully.  If you haven't read about the problems with many studies, I really think you should read those and, at least the abstracts of studies supporting and against drugs and surgical options before pushing that they are the best known option.


You're an op in #xonotic.  You arguing on any side of that is implicit permission to argue with you on the subject.  You could have asked to not have that conversation but that's not what you did.  If you've followed GID/trans treatment at all, you should know that pushing for surgery and drugs is highly-contentious and political.  I've read your post several times and referred to the logs and what I've drawn from that is you threw Antares into the little mental box where we keep Mikee and stopped trying to understand.  


Quote:2021-02-16 08:17:59 <Antares> why yes, exploiting mentally vulnerable people with irreversible procedures and surgery is wrong morally
That line stands on it's own, and, if you tried to understand that point of view you'd see that, but instead you implied that Antares was just trolling you for fun.

#24
(02-22-2021, 01:15 PM)mini Wrote: MrBougo, you're still not hearing the other side.  Many are concerned that it's being pushed on children.  The UK thought that was important enough to address that concern (https://www.segm.org/Keira_Bell_ruling_g...ercussions).  You wrote a lot to frame Antares as a troll when the concerns I saw being expressed were concern for children and for the mentally ill that are neither gender dysphoric nor trans but are falling into something for the sake of community and acceptance.  Those are not uncommon views and I see nothing -phobic about asking if treatments of permanent consequence are the best option when some studies suggest that they are and others focus on the permanent damage and suicide rates.  Chemical or surgical castration, endocrine system failure, other organ failure and possible increases in suicide rates should be considered carefully.  If you haven't read about the problems with many studies, I really think you should read those and, at least the abstracts of studies supporting and against drugs and surgical options before pushing that they are the best known option.


You're an op in #xonotic.  You arguing on any side of that is implicit permission to argue with you on the subject.  You could have asked to not have that conversation but that's not what you did.  If you've followed GID/trans treatment at all, you should know that pushing for surgery and drugs is highly-contentious and political.  I've read your post several times and referred to the logs and what I've drawn from that is you threw Antares into the little mental box where we keep Mikee and stopped trying to understand.  


Quote:2021-02-16 08:17:59 <Antares> why yes, exploiting mentally vulnerable people with irreversible procedures and surgery is wrong morally
That line stands on it's own, and, if you tried to understand that point of view you'd see that, but instead you implied that Antares was just trolling you for fun.

Please read my post again mini. Antares has been more hostile to trans and queer people than you are hinting at, has been repeatedly inflammatory about it, has linked several times to an image board that reeks of harassment tactics and dehumanization, and did not show the slightest consideration after being warned. Suffice it to say that I consider Antares' attitude a danger to the trans and queer people I frequent.

So please stop trying to smooth the corners.

I will side with Antares' OP and not bring the politics of the matter in here. We are not having this debate on these forums.

#25
When people start to talk about "Chemical or surgical castration", "suicide" and the "UK thought", I can only remember what happened to the father of computer science, Alan Turing (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing).
Please Mr Bougo, just bannish them. You don't need to explain what means "dignity" in the human rights.
They don't have to talk about such topic here, and they know this.



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