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WTFPRooF?!s Suggestions List
01-03-2011, 03:07 PM
Post: #1
WTFPRooF?!s Suggestions List
So after playing the game a little (still only bots because I'm not at my gaming-rig) I found some things I would like to see in Xonotic. I will add suggestions over time as I continue playing Xonotic online and get some more indepth look on the game. Most of my suggestions will probably be "important" for duel as it is the most important gamemode for me, but they could probably help other modes too.

1. Set fixed Item Names

I know that there allready is a poll about weapons so I won't post my toughts about them here but I think we should add some fixed names for Armor and Health aswell as for the Powerups like this they could also be shown on the hud when picked up, this could help newcomers to learn what they actually picked up. They should be kind of unique but should not be too missleading. My sugestion would be:

Armors:

-Body Armor (100AP)
-Chest Armor (50AP)
-Helmet (25AP)
-Shards (5AP)

Health:

-Mega Health or Ultra Health (100HP)
-Big Health-Box or -Pack (50HP)
-First Aid Box or Pack (25HP)
-Adrenaline Shot (5HP)

Power Ups:

-Stenght should be renamed to something like Quad Damage or Damage Amplifier (I think this was discussed on a other topic)

2. Spawn Indicators

I don't know if in Xonotic there is a warm-up mode cuz I did not play it online yet, but if there is it is the perfect time for newbs to learn maps and strategies on them and learning the spawns it a big part of getting to know a map, so I would suggest to add default spawn indicators on all maps (they could be glowing Xonotic-Logos or Transparent Playermodels or whatever). Especially in duel knowing the spawnpoints is crucial for controling the situation on the map.

3. Remove the free kill when a player gets pushed into the space

It was like this in Nexuiz and it will be the same in Xonotic if it does not get changed: I start raging every time I get pushed into the space (we had a lot of space in Nexuiz I hope this will change in Xonotic) by my opponet and he gets a free kill for doing nothing and landing a lucky bounce on me. Please! Please, please remove the kill and instead make the pushed player loose a point! Thank you! Smile

That's it for the moment

Peace
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01-03-2011, 03:16 PM (This post was last modified: 01-03-2011 03:17 PM by Inso.)
Post: #2
RE: WTFPRooF?!s Suggestions List
I don't agree with point #3.
Many times it's easier to push your opponent off the map rather than killing him with weapons.
I don't agree with point #3.
Many times it's easier to push your opponent off the map rather than killing him with weapons.
#1 & 2 are fine though.
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01-03-2011, 03:40 PM
Post: #3
RE: WTFPRooF?!s Suggestions List
Fixing names for items isn't a bad idea, but personally I think "50AP" or "25HP" is nice and short and best of all you don't need to remember how much each is worth. I call the quads "Powerup Punish" and Powerup Protect" Big Grin

Mappers have been trying for centuries (well ok, not quite that long) to make a map where spawnfragging isn't how to win. Winning should be about gameplay. You want newbs to learn how to fight, not how to run around to all the spawnpoints with the Nex waiting for their enemy to respawn. If we teach them to do this, then they'll rely on it for winning, which will be about knowing the map, not about how good you actually are. I'm not too sure on this one, this is just the result I foresee. Maybe it's what you want, IDK.

Voidpushing is a tactic and strategy just like any other. It also makes the RL, GL and other push weapons a little more powerful (on space maps), making the Rifle and Nex no longer the dominators. Also when dueling, does it matter if you lose a point or if your enemy gets one? Still 1 point difference.

If I was betting only one or two maps space maps will make it into 1.0, Relent (Soylent remake) and maybe Abandon.

Peace Heart

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01-03-2011, 06:55 PM
Post: #4
RE: WTFPRooF?!s Suggestions List
I totally agree with point #1, it can be very confusing for newbies when they pick up strength or shield and have no idea what it does. Naming the armour/health shards etc. is probably less important because a simple centerprint of "[+5|+25|+50|+100] [Health|Armour]" would do.

On the other hand, I agree with nowego4 on points #2 and #3. Voidpushing *is* a valid tactic™ and spawnpoints are something you learn with time (marking them would lead to camping, especially on TDM/CTF matches).

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01-03-2011, 10:26 PM (This post was last modified: 01-03-2011 10:27 PM by FruitieX.)
Post: #5
RE: WTFPRooF?!s Suggestions List
TOTALLY disagree with #3, this is the number one thing I hate about most other shooters! I caused his death, why shouldn't I get a point?

I like #2 though, we need someone to make a nice model and then put such a thing into code if we can, so it'll be consistent across all maps

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01-03-2011, 11:22 PM
Post: #6
RE: WTFPRooF?!s Suggestions List
yeah I also like #1 but point #2 and #3 no no and no way.

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01-04-2011, 10:19 AM
Post: #7
RE: WTFPRooF?!s Suggestions List
I think some of you guys did not get the idea behind no2. The spawn indicators should only be visible in warmup not in match time. And don't tell me that you don't know every spawn on a map and don't spam spawns you can see from the place you killed your opponent.

About the space-kill, I will say what I think about it without thinking about politeness: "It takes a fucking luck shit rocket to push someone into the space. No skill or anything near it needed its only shitty luck. Noone should get rewarded for having luck. That's why I hate space-maps in any game and don't think they are somewhat suited for duel, they are only shitty fun maps where the one with more luck-free-frags wins". But if the majority thinks that it's pure skill to land a bounce rocket and they should be rewarded for it, fine.

As for point no1, I don't say my suggestions are the best way to call it, but it would be really good to have fixed names that can appear as a pickup.
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01-04-2011, 10:37 AM
Post: #8
RE: WTFPRooF?!s Suggestions List
If you miss someone with a rocket in a close map, but the rocket hits the wall and he dies cause of splash damage its some kind of luck too isn't it? Tongue

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01-04-2011, 10:51 AM
Post: #9
RE: WTFPRooF?!s Suggestions List
(01-04-2011 10:19 AM)WTFProoF Wrote:  About the space-kill, I will say what I think about it without thinking about politeness: "It takes a fucking luck shit rocket to push someone into the space. No skill or anything near it needed its only shitty luck. Noone should get rewarded for having luck. That's why I hate space-maps in any game and don't think they are somewhat suited for duel, they are only shitty fun maps where the one with more luck-free-frags wins". But if the majority thinks that it's pure skill to land a bounce rocket and they should be rewarded for it, fine.

Actually I dedicated myself to doing just what you said is pure luck. On every map that supported it on Nexuiz I tried whenever I could (i.e. whenever void was near) to push the opponent off the map. To some extent I got rather good at this, even playing some maps ALWAYS laser only (!) and doing actually very well on public matches (revdm3, pushmod...). To place a rocket just sideways to the opponent that is in mid-air and to detonate it at that exact moment where the blast throws the opponent off the map is very tricky, as is lasering people mid-air. If you think that's purely luck, then you don't consider that you CAN actually do this intentionally, even though it is sometimes more difficult than just decreasing your opponent's hitpoints below zero. I've seen much more of lucky "conventional" kills than unintentional pushing off the map. Of course some people tend to fall of the map without reason (especially including me), giving someone else a free frag. So?

I see pushing people off the map as a very big challenge and a lot of fun - an additional way to play the game. This is also why I tried to emphasize the importance of the push-force of weapons, especially the laser.

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<ZeRoQL> i think i got 1 proper quad and that cunt halogen fuck me over with a laser
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01-04-2011, 10:57 AM
Post: #10
RE: WTFPRooF?!s Suggestions List
I admit it's annoying WTFProof, like you say it create's randomness in duels which is bad which is the only reason I dislike space maps for duelling and personally I think they don't have a place, but for everything else normal gameplay wise they are fun Smile

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01-04-2011, 11:43 AM
Post: #11
RE: WTFPRooF?!s Suggestions List
hehe, I am not surprised of your view on falling into void ;o)

You should probably play some matches on space maps and concentrate yourself of exclusively pushing people off the map, just try it out. On several maps you can be very efficient that way and maybe you find out that pushing off maps doesn't necessarily mean randomness but can also be quite calculated. Like when you are going for the mega armor at the rocket launcher on Soylent, a well placed mortar from around the corner can, if you predicted the movement of your opponent right, extend a bunnyhop just far enough so the opponent hops off the map. I have done that very often (both the mortar shot and the hopping off the map). Same with the nex on Soylent, if the opponent comes from the mega armor on the top level going for the nex and you see him jump over the gap above the mortar you can time your rocket launcher or mortar shot so that the splash through the walls extends his bunny-hop just so he falls off. I could go on, just think about the path to the mega health with those neat little 5 armor cells - perfect to time your shot from below to make a bunnyhop end in space. You call that randomness? ;o)

Of course I know there always are lucky pushes, but aren't there always quite a lot of lucky spam shots, too?

Anyhow, whenever playing enclosed maps (even when playing duel), I miss the ability to push people off the map. I think it boils down to whether you like that aspect of gameplay or not - I don't think adds significantly more randomness to the game.

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<ZeRoQL> i think i got 1 proper quad and that cunt halogen fuck me over with a laser
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01-04-2011, 07:36 PM
Post: #12
RE: WTFPRooF?!s Suggestions List
Imo space kills are just as valid as any other. hell with current agile physics is so damn hard to push ppl off (and keeping them off, high air-control) that perhaps you should get a double frag for it Big Grin Super serious pro gamers (or what ever to call it) can always stay away from space maps as those ppl tend to play pickup or ladder games where maps are decided on forehand.
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01-05-2011, 11:02 AM
Post: #13
RE: WTFPRooF?!s Suggestions List
There was even a minigame in Nexuiz called Laser Sumo - you could only score points by pushing your opponent off the map!

[Image: 370.png] AKA [~] John Smith on Nexuiz
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01-05-2011, 11:05 AM
Post: #14
RE: WTFPRooF?!s Suggestions List
I have nothing against you being awarded a frag if you push someone off the map. I think WTFProoF is used to the classic way in the older DM game's where you just lose a frag/score.

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01-05-2011, 01:23 PM
Post: #15
RE: WTFPRooF?!s Suggestions List
Yep, I'm used to the way, Quake-Series, Unreal Tournament-Series and other games like Painkiller/War§ow handel "enviroment-deaths" (that includes falling into deep space, getting grilled by lava, falling into void, getting eaten up by acid aso.). They register such deaths as a suicide from the player who died in one of those traps. And imo it is the only fair way to handle such deaths in duel. I however know that it can be fun to push players from the map in DM/FFA, however imo it has no place in competetive gametypes like TDM, CTF or Duel, so I will rewrite my suggestion:

3. Remove the free-kill trough space/lava/acid in competetive modes (TDM/CTF/Duel) or make it a votable "mutator".

Peace
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01-06-2011, 05:06 AM
Post: #16
RE: WTFPRooF?!s Suggestions List
Xonotic hands you a point only if you hurt the opponent shortly before they died a environmental death. Else it just counts as -1 to the departed. As such i really cant say i see the randomness or negative PvP impact. (score difference will be just the same, so what the fuzz if its +me or -you?). tbh i never heard anyone consider the way Nexuiz / Xonotic handles this bad before, and unless that changes its rather unlikely this will be turned into a mutator that defaults to off for pickups an ladder games.
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01-06-2011, 11:05 AM (This post was last modified: 01-06-2011 11:06 AM by Samual.)
Post: #17
RE: WTFPRooF?!s Suggestions List
^ what he said. One example of where this really is needed is if I nex someone off a space map, they are DIRECTLY forced into their death by my nex shot and thus I should get the kill.

Honestly idea #1 probably isn't needed, but #2 in my opinion could be very useful. I don't suggest doing it via waypoints though actually, I just suggest making it fairly obvious where spawn points are with some standardized effect across all default maps.
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11-29-2011, 11:13 AM
Post: #18
RE: WTFPRooF?!s Suggestions List
Assume this game situation:

A kills B 20 times regularily
B kills A 25 times regularily

A pushed B into void 17 times
B pushed A into void 3 times

A jumped into void (by own fault) 2 times
B jumped into void (by own fault) 3 times

Then, currently, A will have 20+17-2 = 35 frags, and B will have 25+3-3 = 25 frags. A leads by 10 frags difference.

By your suggestion, however, A would have 20-3-2 = 15 frags, and B would have 25-17-3 = 5 frags. Here, A also leads by 10 frags difference.

If you think about it, this never makes any difference at all for 1v1 matches that are decided by timelimit - and most competitive matches are exactly that.

In CTF, the frags don't count anyway, so it's no issue there either.

And in 2-teams TDM, this also makes no difference, as the same calculation as above applies.

It only makes a difference in 3-team or 4-team games, or FFA games. And these typically are not competitive anyway.

So where exactly is the problem? I think what you actually found out, is that fraglimit sucks and that competitive games should be decided by timelimit Tongue


For that there is also another reason:

Assume you are going to get killed by an incoming rocket. No problem! Just fire rocket at your own feet! Then attacker gets no frag. Problem?

This could be abused to sabotage fraglimit-decided games by not letting the winning player get the final frag for a long while.

Note that this issue - sabotaging fraglimit - also exists with our current rules and is no problem of your suggestion. It just shows that only timelimit- or maybe caplimit-decided games make sense. And in these games, the decision how a "push" is handled, doesn't matter anyway, except for visual cosmetics.

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11-29-2011, 11:24 AM
Post: #19
RE: WTFPRooF?!s Suggestions List
Jumping on the bandwagon here. If I cause a death, I expect to be rewarded for it. Also, Quake III Dreamcast used to award points to your opponent in 1v1 matches if you suicided and he/she had nothing to do with your death! Giving you absolutely no room to screw around.

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12-02-2011, 09:03 AM
Post: #20
RE: WTFPRooF?!s Suggestions List
Point 1: I don't think that's necessary, the item models are quite self explanatory. Red = Health, Green = Armor, the bigger the better. There are already to many text messages in the middle of the screen for my taste anyway.
Point 2: Yeah, why not.
Point 3: I'd prefer the classic "-1 for killing yourself" scoring.

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12-02-2011, 10:51 AM
Post: #21
RE: WTFPRooF?!s Suggestions List
Quote:the bigger the better
The point is, some pedantics might wanna know how much points exactly do those power-ups carry.

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12-19-2011, 03:11 AM
Post: #22
RE: WTFPRooF?!s Suggestions List
I won't post my toughts about them here but I think we should add some fixed names for Armor and Health aswell as for the Powerups like this they could also be shown on the hud when picked up, this could help newcomers to learn what they actually picked up.
It's really a great one thank you for sharing..
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