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Map incubator thread: Vociferous
05-25-2012, 03:58 PM (This post was last modified: 06-08-2012 05:19 PM by CuBe0wL.)
Post: #1
Exclamation Map incubator thread: Vociferous
I finally pulled myself together, and I'm back again in the mapping business. As I prmosied earlier, I'd like to make this mapping progress as transparent as I can.

Right, so Ladies and Gentlemen, I'd like to give you:

Vociferous! A new, COMPETITIVE ORIENTED TDM MAP!

Latest alpha link (will always change!)
http://beta.xonotic.org/autobuild-bsp/vo...a4d230.pk3

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The name might ring some bells for you, yes, it is named after one of our community member, to whom I long ago promised I'll make this map, and name it after him. The name might change later, ofc. Smile
Map is in PLANNING PHASE. This means:
This is the first alpha playtest release of the map. I'd like to ask everybody to give suggestions about the map LAYOUT and ITEM PLACEMENT ONLY for now. This means, I'd like to ask server admins to place the map on pickup servers, so the crowd that it is geared towards gets a chance to test it, and give feedback about the map here.

Right now, I don't care for the visuals, I think this is obvious. So I won't listen to any comments about that (right now ofc. visuals can come later). I'd like to get this map later into master, so it'll have to be par on any official maps visually anyway.

So, tell me, what do you think about the map, the gameplay. Give CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, like:

"There are too few items"

This is not constructive, because I don't know how to change the thing you complain for. In case there are too few items, name them what you'd like to see, where, how much, and WHY! Remember, this is a TDM map, item placement needs to be tactically thought through.

On behalf of room/walls layout: I pretty much consider it finished, though there are parts I'm not really satisfied with either, like the Nex room. It is too large, and too empty. However, I ran out of ideas there. Sad So suggestions and ideas are welcomed!

ATTENTION ARTISTS!
I'm seeking for help in actually building the map too. In case you have any kind of mapping skills (like texturing, concept art, or prop modelling), and would like to help, please contact me!

Let the discussion begin!

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05-25-2012, 04:59 PM
Post: #2
RE: Map incubator thread: Vociferous
(05-25-2012 03:58 PM)C.Brutail Wrote:  The name might ring some bells for you, yes, it is named after one of our community member, to whom I long ago promised I'll make this map, and name it after him.
a very very long time ago Tongue


(05-25-2012 03:58 PM)C.Brutail Wrote:  Right now, I don't care for the visuals, I think this is obvious. So I won't listen to any comments about that (right now ofc. visuals can come later). I'd like to get this map later into master, so it'll have to be par on any official maps visually anyway.
just a suggestion in that direction. what about a defunct complex as in portal2? a fight nature vs techcomplex.


(05-25-2012 03:58 PM)C.Brutail Wrote:  On behalf of room/walls layout: I pretty much consider it finished, though there are parts I'm not really satisfied with either, like the Nex room. It is too large, and too empty. However, I ran out of ideas there.
why dont you use something like you use this? as you used on franticPlease do not embed images from pics.nexuizninjaz.com! Click here to attempt to see the image anyway.

You could place it at the top of the wall. not enter able. just as eyecandy

(05-25-2012 03:58 PM)C.Brutail Wrote:  I'm seeking for help in actually building the map too. In case you have any kind of mapping skills (like texturing, concept art, or prop modelling), and would like to help, please contact me!

i guess some potential people which are able to help with this are busy with the mapping contest

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regarding the item placement i use a simple rule. Place the strong powerups in the corners and the smaller ones in the middle

<Samual> I am the most unprofessional developer ever
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05-26-2012, 12:55 AM
Post: #3
RE: Map incubator thread: Vociferous
Thank you Cortez! Smile

This would rather be an "arena" style map, not a real place. Hence I'm hesitant to add any distracting eye candy like the walker-room you posted. I'd like to shrink that room, just don't know how yet...

As for item placement: you almost nailed it, the Megahealth and the Megaarmor are just where you've put them, the strenght is at the room where you can see the Xonotic logo. Smile
I'll try to explain later a lot more about the map, making more screenshots, I was just too tired yesterday.

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05-26-2012, 03:02 AM
Post: #4
RE: Map incubator thread: Vociferous
nexuizninjaz seriously sucks as an image sharer...


(i will try to post a bit more constuctive feedback later)

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05-26-2012, 03:56 AM (This post was last modified: 05-26-2012 04:30 AM by Cortez666.)
Post: #5
RE: Map incubator thread: Vociferous
(05-26-2012 12:55 AM)C.Brutail Wrote:  I'd like to shrink that room, just don't know how yet...

http://ompldr.org/vZHhjbg/example.map
how about something like this?

You cant control the entrances from the top just the nex in the middle

<Samual> I am the most unprofessional developer ever
<bluez> halogene, you make awesome music, but you have no clue about ctf.
<Halogene> I didn't know mappers include some mysterious waypoints so members of the BOT clan can navigate a map?
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05-26-2012, 11:17 AM
Post: #6
RE: Map incubator thread: Vociferous
FIRST POST PK3 LINK UPDATED!

I implemented the idea from Cortez, made the Nex room a bit smaller, and opened a new pathway to the room from the 3rd floor.

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05-27-2012, 03:05 PM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2012 03:14 PM by rocknroll237.)
Post: #7
RE: Map incubator thread: Vociferous
Nice map. I like the layout and the fact that you have to risk jumping in the water and being hemmed in when retrieving the Nex. I'm not sure if having a gap in the glass above the Nex is a good idea though, as it makes it too easy for someone to jump in and out with the laser.

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05-27-2012, 03:49 PM
Post: #8
RE: Map incubator thread: Vociferous
You can't laserjump out from the water Wink

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05-27-2012, 04:19 PM
Post: #9
RE: Map incubator thread: Vociferous
(05-27-2012 03:49 PM)C.Brutail Wrote:  You can't laserjump out from the water Wink

Oh okay. That's good. Even though I played it, I hadn't tried jumping out and just assumed that you could use the laser to do so.

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05-27-2012, 04:38 PM
Post: #10
RE: Map incubator thread: Vociferous
About the update:
I've opened a new path from the 3rd floor to the nex room:

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This is what you can see from up there:

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Cortez's idea about blocking view at the top of the nex room:

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05-28-2012, 01:26 AM
Post: #11
RE: Map incubator thread: Vociferous
Shouldn't this thread be in the mapping section?

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05-30-2012, 12:26 PM
Post: #12
RE: Map incubator thread: Vociferous
No, it shouldn't. This i not a release, but WIP development discussion for an official map.
*BUMP. Playtest please, I won't map further in case nobody is interested...

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05-31-2012, 06:16 AM (This post was last modified: 05-31-2012 06:17 AM by tZork.)
Post: #13
RE: Map incubator thread: Vociferous
I added the map to Overkill's map pool. Obviously wont say much abt item placement, and OK is more casual then competitive. Non the less, ill get back with my tough's on the layout as soon as i tried it with real ppl™.

(05-28-2012 01:26 AM)Mr. Bougo Wrote:  Shouldn't this thread be in the mapping section?
No such thing. There is a map release section, but given this is for feedback, i think "Creating & Contributing" seems like the right place.
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05-31-2012, 12:43 PM
Post: #14
RE: Map incubator thread: Vociferous
... Ive been sticking WIP stuff in editing and concept art ...

Samual can can control the powers of the xonotic's source ... but can he see why kids like cinnamon toast crunch?
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06-05-2012, 03:10 AM
Post: #15
RE: Map incubator thread: Vociferous
I don't even know why the hell I bother myself with this map...

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06-05-2012, 04:40 AM
Post: #16
RE: Map incubator thread: Vociferous
(06-05-2012 03:10 AM)C.Brutail Wrote:  I don't even know why the hell I bother myself with this map...

Why? I like it!

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06-05-2012, 06:58 AM
Post: #17
RE: Map incubator thread: Vociferous
(06-05-2012 04:40 AM)rocknroll237 Wrote:  
(06-05-2012 03:10 AM)C.Brutail Wrote:  I don't even know why the hell I bother myself with this map...
Why? I like it!

because he asked for suggestions and all people do is arguing in which forum section this thread belongs.
does this really matter?

im not a real good competitive player so i cant help you much with this side, but if you need some help with the mapping stuff, you know where you can find me Smile

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06-05-2012, 07:44 AM
Post: #18
RE: Map incubator thread: Vociferous
(06-05-2012 03:10 AM)C.Brutail Wrote:  I don't even know why the hell I bother myself with this map...

Sorry but it's hard to give feedback on this map in it's current state. The layout seems generally to be set in stone and the item placement are in a state advanced enough to give us a decent idea how it's going to play, but it's only theory until it's seen in action. I mean, I can jump around on it, look at where items are and imagine how it will work out in a match, but it's really hard to give the useful suggestions that you want unless we have 8 competitive players on at the same time to play 4v4tdm (this has not happened in a while).

However, you seem really intended on getting feedback, even annoyed that you are not getting any. To be completely honest, and I know this is very negative but I don't see how else to explain, I find that there is a very severe lack of "flow" on the map to the point that I can't imagine the layout to be "fun" to play on at least not in the competitive sense. One-way teleporters really should not be there to fix the lack of flow, it really has to work without them, their purpose should be to add some more possibilities + an extra fun factor. Instead they seem to be there as the only sane/safe way to get from one side of the map to the other (avoiding the very long L-shaped corridor and the huge middle room). There should be a better way to fix this problem.

The thing is, I can't easily offer a solution to my complaints and I don't think saying "there is no flow" helps you very much. It just is too complicated to explain in writing which is why I have not participated in this thread or on irc before. They only way I'd be able to give suggestions would be if I could test ideas directly on the map so it could be easier to show you, or even collaborate if you're open to that. Last time I tried to edit the map I was not able to compile it (no idea why), but it seems to work with last version you posted so now I could do it. Obviously I am asking you beforehand, because it's your map and what I might suggest are possible major changes to the layout which might not be what you have in mind.

For example, I feel that the megahealth room (regardless of it's content) is completely off in how it is located in the layout, it has it's own small "loop" going thru it that is completely outside where other major loops meet, but I don't see how I could give you a suggestion on how to fix it other than opening netradiant and moving stuff around to try it out. So, I would be happy to help but it depends if you prefer to keep working on it yourself, which would be understandable.
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06-05-2012, 08:24 AM
Post: #19
RE: Map incubator thread: Vociferous
W00t, feedback. I'll reply one by one

(06-05-2012 07:44 AM)nifrek Wrote:  The layout seems generally to be set in stone

Not at all! The reason why there is little to no eye candy, normal texturing etc. on the map, because I suspect MAJOR changes here and there, according to other peoples ideas. Also, once I was told that it's hard to imagine a map only from 2D blueprints and birds-eye views, so I decided to quickly caulk-up the major outline of the map, so one can actually look around, toy with it, and don't have to only rely on imaginations.

(06-05-2012 07:44 AM)nifrek Wrote:  item placement are in a state advanced enough to give us a decent idea how it's going to play

Items are there so you can actually...

(06-05-2012 07:44 AM)nifrek Wrote:  but it's only theory until it's seen in action. I mean, I can jump around on it, look at where items are and imagine how it will work out in a match, but it's really hard to give the useful suggestions that you want unless we have 8 competitive players on at the same time to play 4v4tdm (this has not happened in a while).

BAM YOU NAILED IT! PLAYTEST FFS! As I cannot clone myself, nor think I'm an experienced dueler/tdm player enough to do this playtest for myself, this is what I generally asked for in the first place! I cannot make you good competitive maps without them being tried by you! So pretty please, get your asses together, and get #pickup players test it! I nagged for several times, but nobody cared. I cannot help anymore.

(06-05-2012 07:44 AM)nifrek Wrote:  I find that there is a very severe lack of "flow" on the map to the point that I can't imagine the layout to be "fun" to play on at least not in the competitive sense.

Finally, we're talking.

(06-05-2012 07:44 AM)nifrek Wrote:  One-way teleporters really should not be there to fix the lack of flow, it really has to work without them, their purpose should be to add some more possibilities + an extra fun factor. Instead they seem to be there as the only sane/safe way to get from one side of the map to the other (avoiding the very long L-shaped corridor and the huge middle room). There should be a better way to fix this problem.

You are right about one teleporter, and that's the one leading from the nex room to the Mega Health. For the teleporter with the Mega Armour, it is intended that way: you can time how that spawns, and you can take the fast, but risky way to get it, because you can't escape from that corridoor if you get caught. At least that's how I imagined the flow for that part.

(06-05-2012 07:44 AM)nifrek Wrote:  The thing is, I can't easily offer a solution to my complaints and I don't think saying "there is no flow" helps you very much.

Sure you do help.

(06-05-2012 07:44 AM)nifrek Wrote:  It just is too complicated to explain in writing which is why I have not participated in this thread or on irc before. They only way I'd be able to give suggestions would be if I could test ideas directly on the map so it could be easier to show you, or even collaborate if you're open to that.

Now this is the part that truly saddens me, because:
-the git branch is there. It is public. Anybody can toy around with it. If I wanted to keep this to myself, I wouldn't made the branch in the first place.
-As I specifically stated in Proposal to change the mapping procedure for official Xonotic maps what I'm doing right now, as trying to get as much feedback as I can, while recruiting for a mapping team. Comappers, modellers, playtesters are what I seek.
-Also, I'm a bit hurt personally too, as you should know me well from IRC, I'm always opened for discussions, compromises, and I think I can work well in a team too. How could you even think I don't want to team up and such Sad

(06-05-2012 07:44 AM)nifrek Wrote:  Last time I tried to edit the map I was not able to compile it (no idea why), but it seems to work with last version you posted so now I could do it. Obviously I am asking you beforehand, because it's your map and what I might suggest are possible major changes to the layout which might not be what you have in mind.

Same as above. Of course I am ok with that!

(06-05-2012 07:44 AM)nifrek Wrote:  For example, I feel that the megahealth room (regardless of it's content) is completely off in how it is located in the layout, it has it's own small "loop" going thru it that is completely outside where other major loops meet, but I don't see how I could give you a suggestion on how to fix it other than opening netradiant and moving stuff around to try it out. So, I would be happy to help but it depends if you prefer to keep working on it yourself, which would be understandable.

Feedback again, hurray! Yeah, that room is very odd too, it mainly has that "loop" because of the opened floor aka. dropdown-shortcut from the second floor to the RL.
So, thx for all these feedbacks, this is exactly what I wanted. I might not be anymore 24/7 on IRC because of zug zug, but during the evening hours, I am mostly there, and anybody can reach me, even via PM on the forum.
Once again: I'm open for all suggestions, ideas, and I accept, I ASK for help.

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06-05-2012, 09:12 AM
Post: #20
RE: Map incubator thread: Vociferous
Ah, well awesome, I'll get back to you soon then Smile
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06-05-2012, 12:26 PM (This post was last modified: 06-05-2012 04:47 PM by Mr. Bougo.)
Post: #21
RE: Map incubator thread: Vociferous
This post removed, nevermind.

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06-06-2012, 07:52 AM
Post: #22
RE: Map incubator thread: Vociferous
ill make a tune for it if ya want cubey

(tune may , or may not be any good , chooky will try his best for mr awesome cube owl like man)

btw cubey , HAI! , t


t


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06-06-2012, 07:56 AM
Post: #23
RE: Map incubator thread: Vociferous
Cheers for the offering chooksta! Smile Let's hear what you compose for us Smile

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06-07-2012, 04:46 AM
Post: #24
RE: Map incubator thread: Vociferous
Thank you for Sless and Cortez for helping me yesterday, and making a quick testrun on the map. We've found numerous things to remap, or fix in the map. Yesterday I didn't have any time to do these, but expect these changes to be done:

The "new path" will have stairs at it's end
A new corridoor will be opened from the nex room to the way above to east
A new corridoor will be opened from RL room, with stairs leading up to the floor where you came out from the large jumppad
Mortar room will be expanded, so it's easier to drop down to mortar
Glass will be removed from the lower window, replaced with larger barrels
50 armor will be moved to nex room, replaced by 25
Zig-zag connection will be diagonally cut, so you don't bump in the corners
Couple of other fixes I can't remember now.

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06-08-2012, 05:18 PM
Post: #25
RE: Map incubator thread: Vociferous
UPDATE

The "new path" with stairs at it's end plus a couple of bridges in the Nex room. Also, I added an Invincibility too
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New corridoor from the nex room to the way to east
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New corridoor opened from RL room, with stairs leading up to the floor where you came out from the large jumppad
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Mortar room expanded, so it's easier to drop down to mortar
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Glasses removed from the lower windows, replaced with larger barrels
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Zig-zag connection diagonally cut
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pk3 updated in the first post.
PLAYTEST!

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