Ladder rules proposal

We still don't have ladder rules for Xonotic, which makes pickup game modes difficult to setup. When ppl are unhappy about something, they ask me to change it, while other ppl don't want to.

This is why I took old ladder rules and prepared a new config in form of a table for cleaner presentation. It will be used to automatically generate the config files).

Please tell me what you think about it.

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To use the configs, extract that file to your data folder and add the following lines at the end of server.cfg:

Code:

exec ladder_common.cfg
dm1v1 // this will start an initial ladder game, can be replaced by tdm2v2, ca2v2, ca3v3, ctf3v3 or ctf5v5

I'd change weaponrespawn time to 20 for TDM (old was 25) in that list and 10 for duel (I'm happy with 15 as it was this in nexuiz but i'm sure it'll get complaints).

Also 10 minute duel game's seem to be the 'craze' these day's but I'm happy with either 10 or 15.

Nice work. But, I'm not sure about g_powerup_strengt 1 for 1v1DM.

a timelimit 15min for 3on3 ctf would be better, because it 20min is pretty long time and it could easily get very boring.

I'd prefer points instead of caps. It leads to better results and on maps which rely on defending like hydronex you dont end up with something like 1-1. The team which was more active wins by points.

CTF..caps not points, I will never go with points..it does not mean you have been more active, it can also mean someone has just been fragged more when they had the flag, so the guy picking it up got a load of points, or loads of DeathMatching..just no.

If it's 1-1 then it's a draw.

Also, friendlyfire & Mirror Damage OFF for CTF. This is truely bad for CTF when it is not disabled.

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Powerups off for duel also.

Score is very bad in CTF, losing an enemy flag makes you lose points, so in 0:0 cap score, a totaly defensive team (no attempts at capturing) wins with a team that tried to capture. This would be visible on maps like hydronex

I'm for friendly fire in team-play (CTF, CA, maybe not in TDM). You'll have to watch your fire + you'll have a chance that your enemies kill each other .

I prefer caps for CTF because when score is even frags shouldn't decide the game.

Friendly Fire should be ENABLED imo

Friendly Fire should be ENABLED imo

+1

Score is very bad in CTF, losing an enemy flag makes you lose points, so in 0:0 cap score, a totaly defensive team (no attempts at capturing) wins with a team that tried to capture. This would be visible on maps like hydronex

it was fine since people start to complain about it and wanted caps and -z- got the fantastic and for losing the flag you should get negative points. On the planetnexuiz.de server we played it this way till end and it was good

Friendly Fire should be ENABLED imo

+1

+1


I have to admit that CTF-points need to be redone. This losing points for losing the flag just suxx, so does one point per cap.
Probably there should be changes made to scoring with the flag (50pts+) so that you can prolly snipe your ass off, but (nearly) never get to the amount of points.

I think it's ok as it is, except the score (that doesn't count for wining). Score is a nice indicator of how active a player was during a game, so I'm against loosing points (other than team killing).

And about friendly fire / mirror damage, it's 5:2 for enabling it right now (second point for disabling is from Unknown on IRC).

Ok so if you want team-damage in ctf i suggest you create your own game mode, like REALctf or something. CTF always had a standard in this genre and it was sorta like this: no team-damage to help boosting and prevent almost any type of team-killing. The original ctf(threewave) had no teamdamage, quake (all of em) ctfs have no team-damage, unreal tournament (all of them) have no team-damage in ctf ladders, doom(all of them) ctf have no team-damage.

Now let's stop trying to make this game "special" and at least use some de-facto standards that are wildly accepted by the whole world.

Also ctf3v3 = ctf5v5 same for ca, they should have the same rules no matter the amount of players, only maps would matter for these gameplays, ie 3v3 and some huge map will never work.

Hi, i don't want teamdamage in CTF either.. Takes fun and speed out of it..

Ok so if you want team-damage in ctf i suggest you create your own game mode, like REALctf or something. CTF always had a standard in this genre and it was sorta like this: no team-damage to help boosting and prevent almost any type of team-killing. The original ctf(threewave) had no teamdamage, quake (all of em) ctfs have no team-damage, unreal tournament (all of them) have no team-damage in ctf ladders, doom(all of them) ctf have no team-damage.

Now let's stop trying to make this game "special" and at least use some de-facto standards that are wildly accepted by the whole world.

Also ctf3v3 = ctf5v5 same for ca, they should have the same rules no matter the amount of players, only maps would matter for these gameplays, ie 3v3 and some huge map will never work.

This is all I have to say on the matter.

So until now:
- remove Quad from 1v1
- remove shotgun modifications
- 20 sec respawn time in TDM for weapons (no one commented on that)

Things still waiting decisions:
- score fixes for CTF (shouldn't however affect CAPS being the points to count for wining/losing)
- friendly fire in CTF (off 3 : 5 on) <- anyone else whishes to comment on that?
- I also heard some complaints about weapon respawn time

For duel either 5, 7.5 for weapon respawn time. People should not wait for weapons, map control is already done on the armor and health level, being able to control weapons too will just make the mode imbalanced. Also quad should be disabled as it gives a way too big advantage to one side, matches will become even more one sided this way.

For ctf again, both modes should have 5s weapon respawn(to always give people weapons, stacking ammo from just weapons isn't a problem as it takes too long and you have to stay in one place hence you die). Friendly fire and mirror damage should both be off, first of all to allow and award greater teamplay through the right use of boosting and to prevent unnecessary teamkils, also being killed by your teammate is annoying, no matter if it is a mistake or a rage or whateva.

Weaponrespawn time 10 secs in CTF worked fine.

Friendly fire and mirror damage should both be off, ... , also being killed by your teammate is annoying, no matter if it is a mistake or a rage or whateva.

TDM has that to, does it mean we should disable it for that reason? So our team mate won't frag us by "mistake or a rage or whateva"?

TDM has it's own rules and scopes, not shooting teammates is a rule there, even without ff you would cause more damage, here you can actually help them through boosting since the mode is focused around two flags, being able to speed up your team without causing unnecessary damage is good, being able to kill teammates in a chaotic 5v5 game is bad and harms gameplay nothing you say can prove otherwise. All the reasoning besides you shouldn't shoot teammates anyways is wrong, you should shoot them if it helps them and they shouldn't die from that shot even if they have 10 health. You should stop comparing the two modes there is nothing similar between them except the fact they have more players than the other modes in your list.

Weaponrespawn time 10 secs in CTF worked fine.

It never worked fine for 5v5 and never will 10 seconds is just too much because there are too many people

In CTF 5v5, with 5 seconds respawn time, you need 25sec to arm the entire team with the same weapon. I wanted that time to be similar in CTF3v3, it's 30 with that setup. Lowering it to 8 - 8.33 will maybe a little better.

CTF3v3, CA3v3, FT3v3, DOM3v3 <- all have 6 players

TDM and CTF are similar in both having teams and in none of them you don't want to frag a teammate. I one of them, you want to make it possible in the other you don't. I'd like to notice that it's harder to get a hitscan weapon in TDM (especially with 20sec weapon respawn time you guys want) than in CTF, so it makes team fragging more frequent in TDM than CTF (and this is how I remember nexuiz pickup and clan games).

Also to every argument for enabling friendlyfire in CTF, you respond:
- 99% of CTF games have friendlyfire disabled
- all games I ever played had friendlyfire disabled
- I don't want to accidentally kill my flag carrier
- I won't be able to boost my teammates
- it was added to punish newbies
- you're a noob
- insideOut would never capture vs allstars on mikectf2 if friendly fire was off in nexuiz

So a big request to DMs clan. Please listen to our arguments too and don't force on the community disabling friendlyfire in CTF. Currently most players answered they want it on.

In the last CTF5v5 pickup game, kojn was flag carrier, I was his support. We did some nice caps there, everyone said he had a nice teamwork. During two maps we played, not even once I needed to shoot at FC or explode a rocket near him, so friendly fire ON wouldn't affect those games. Then maybe it's just you are playing it wrong when you constantly need to shoot your FC?

Self damage is like 0.65 currently and flag carrier self damage is 1, maybe that needs fixing?

Look atheros, letters might be hard to read or something so try harder, i never said i constantly needed to push my FC, i said there are those very special moments where it would make a difference, also i don't want to kill him in the mids of a chaotic fight, because that's how ctf is, xonotic is not spammy anymore yet you can't predict a whole team of adversaries even if you can synch up with your team.

The only arguments you EVER gave for have for turning FF on are:
- Nexuiz had it on and i copied the setting over
- TDM has it on and CTF is TDM with flags, must be on
- Most players answered yes(5)

My arguments:
- It's a de-facto standard used in EVERY Arcade 3D Shooter for the default CTF, from ROTT to Unreal Tournament 3(and everything in between) this game is not Call of Duty to be realistic in any way, I don't see why we should be "special" when it comes to STANDARD pickup CTF
- It improves teamplay allowing for more acrobatics and daring escapes OR saving your flag from the enemy base BY working as a team as opposed to just killing each other
- If you really want it, you can have it in your own ruleset/game mode
- There was never a real CTF ladder in Nexuiz rules were copied over from TDM, there it was TDM with flags
- Most players are inactive, we can use standard rules and after there is a real ladder with loads of active players IF it is requested by the majority activate it

I showed you concrete examples WHERE that would make a difference, the FC being the point of focus as this is CTF not team deathmatch, I can have no kills and still win a game because I had the most CAPS. All you did was say it must be on because you have 5 votes and nexuiz + tdm has it. Now how 'bout you bring some arguments to why it should be on, besides just YOU think so.

ALSO CTF should have the same rules no matter the number of players, it's a game mode entirely different rules like higer weapon respawn time is just wierd. What works for 5v5(the most player example) works for 3v3. The same thing goes for CA.

Just to clarify.

TDM has friendly fire ON, mainly to stop just spamming a spawn point constantly otherwise if it was off if you hit your team-mate you do no damage but if a enemy spawns there you always damage him so you could just keep spamming spawn point's with no risk of hurting your own-team, CTF is not about spamming spawn points nor is it about map control or all-out fragging. In CTF this does not apply because each side spawns on THERE side of the map, blue doesn't spawn in the red base for example. You can not compare the two game-mode's in that sense because one has it on and one has it off, I just give a reasoning above for why it is ON in TDM so we can stop this 'oh but it's on in TDM' sillyness, apples & oranges.

By the way, we tried 25secs in TDM..mainly vs affro..we being me and fruitiex, and anyway we decided to go to 20 and it still allows for the better team to get map control but also you don't have to wait so long to potentially get a weapon if you die and are waiting for one. I did not request this but morfar and ai did when we played, 20 actually also make's sense because you can move around maps quicker in xonotic..not particularly faster straight line but because of the air control, so reducing to 20 from nexuiz's 25 make's some sense.

By the way 'most player's answered they want it on'

5:3 is not a majority, come on, sample size?

Oh yea grunt shot me in the back in yesterday's game's (by accident,) guess he thought I was the enemy even though I wasn't fighting so his instincts, but it took off most of my armour on attic and it was quite annoying..not the fact I get accidently shot, but that I lost my armour before getting to there flag, CTF is quite chaotic, and I really really believe that FF and mirror damage is bad..it was designed in nexuiz CTF to punish newbies (Which I also dislike as they have no idea why), actually it's more to do with stopping lame teamkiller's on public..however pickup/clan game's do not play like publics.

That's all from me.

Look atheros, letters might be hard to read or something so try harder, i never said i constantly needed to push my FC, i said there are those very special moments where it would make a difference, also i don't want to kill him in the mids of a chaotic fight, because that's how ctf is, xonotic is not spammy anymore yet you can't predict a whole team of adversaries even if you can synch up with your team.

Well - in opposite you still can push your FC. But you have to think first if that shot really is neccessary, or your FC really can handle it. It's like - being more tactic, more thinking in game.

The only arguments you EVER gave for have for turning FF on are:
- Nexuiz had it on and i copied the setting over
- TDM has it on and CTF is TDM with flags, must be on
- Most players answered yes(5)

I can add some more
- It's getting more challenging with team-damage
- You cant defend with spam-weapons with the thought "ah, my teammates will survive anyway"
- teams based on defending are even harder to defeat (especially when the weapondroprate increases)
- you have to think more in-game; try to be more tactical (as mentioned above)

My arguments:
- It's a de-facto standard used in EVERY Arcade 3D Shooter for the default CTF, from ROTT to Unreal Tournament 3(and everything in between) this game is not Call of Duty to be realistic in any way, I don't see why we should be "special" when it comes to STANDARD pickup CTF

Sorry that i have to tell you, but xonotic is an other game. Whatever others do or set up as default settings to their game shouldnt effect any decision. Especially when most of the community is against this "default".

- It improves teamplay allowing for more acrobatics and daring escapes OR saving your flag from the enemy base BY working as a team as opposed to just killing each other
- If you really want it, you can have it in your own ruleset/game mode

Same in opposit - if you dont want it - you can have it in your mode.
But yes - it's allowing more acrobatics.

- There was never a real CTF ladder in Nexuiz rules were copied over from TDM, there it was TDM with flags

Yepp - exactly. Whether these settings are "good" or "bad" is discussed here.

- Most players are inactive, we can use standard rules and after there is a real ladder with loads of active players IF it is requested by the majority activate it

Because (still) most of the players come from nexuiz and have gotten familiar to these settings - why bully them up and change it ?

I showed you concrete examples WHERE that would make a difference, the FC being the point of focus as this is CTF not team deathmatch, I can have no kills and still win a game because I had the most CAPS. All you did was say it must be on because you have 5 votes and nexuiz + tdm has it. Now how 'bout you bring some arguments to why it should be on, besides just YOU think so.

ALSO CTF should have the same rules no matter the number of players, it's a game mode entirely different rules like higer weapon respawn time is just wierd. What works for 5v5(the most player example) works for 3v3. The same thing goes for CA.

My biggest concern is, that if FF will be changed, not really aim is neccessary but speed. As long as you can be shot from one side of the map (or room) to the other without any consequences you (nearly) always will escape with the flag. That anyone following you with normal bunnyhopping is quite illusionary. In addition is an escaping FC who got shot by a teammate faster than any weapon / projectile but instant hit weapons.


- just my two cents of opinion -

In regards to pushing your FC, I think Unknown means in a sense of more 'pre-planned' strategy, with FF On you can't wait and ask 'hey do you have more then X amount of damage', essentially the power to be able to employ setplays where possible..I can tell you these are very rare in CTF, you have to have exceptionally good teamplay and your player's need to know when they can do it, this is just by experience and knowing how each other plays.