Ladder rules proposal

Well - in opposite you still can push your FC. But you have to think first if that shot really is neccessary, or your FC really can handle it. It's like - being more tactic, more thinking in game.

Wrong, you will just scare the idea of boosting away, nobody will try it because it will hurt, anything(worth boosting) would damage your teammate too much to make it worth it. This boost idea is an art, it can be used in both attacking, retrieving, capping or whatever else there is. You are saying to always risk killing your teammate in the hopes you will also boost him.

I can add some more
- It's getting more challenging with team-damage
- You cant defend with spam-weapons with the thought "ah, my teammates will survive anyway"
- teams based on defending are even harder to defeat (especially when the weapondroprate increases)
- you have to think more in-game; try to be more tactical (as mentioned above)

- Xonotic isn't spammy anymore, welcome to balance
- Don't see how this is relevant?
- This is not true, you just dig in a reflex to NOT shoot any teammate because you don't know if he will survive, having FF off would make you think if you are helping him by boosting or not.
- Xonotic default CTF has FF off because now there is virtual FF and virtual Reflect damage to warn newbies, it shouldn't prevent teamplay through boosting(since it takes skills to get orchestrated right, you don't have it and you will just FAIL abominably)

Sorry that i have to tell you, but xonotic is an other game. Whatever others do or set up as default settings to their game shouldnt effect any decision. Especially when most of the community is against this "default".

Same in opposit - if you dont want it - you can have it in your mode.
But yes - it's allowing more acrobatics.

Sorry to have to tell you this but xonotic, being another game took every game mode from those other games that created them. I fail to see why we should just be retarded and say WE must be different. If you take the whole mode form another game, you take all the settings too (that's how it was in the beginning then all the omg newbie team shooter business started). Therefore my saying that YOU guys can have your game mode is much more relevant, as CTF has been like that for 20 years, why should you take this name because you want it different?

Because (still) most of the players come from nexuiz and have gotten familiar to these settings - why bully them up and change it ?

Most players are still accounted to 5 people at the moment. Also read above.

My biggest concern is, that if FF will be changed, not really aim is neccessary but speed. As long as you can be shot from one side of the map (or room) to the other without any consequences you (nearly) always will escape with the flag. That anyone following you with normal bunnyhopping is quite illusionary. In addition is an escaping FC who got shot by a teammate faster than any weapon / projectile but instant hit weapons.


- just my two cents of opinion -

You can get boosted to catch up to a fast FC too, this is probably my MAIN use of having no FF.

In regards to pushing your FC, I think Unknown means in a sense of more 'pre-planned' strategy, with FF On you can't wait and ask 'hey do you have more then X amount of damage', essentially the power to be able to employ setplays where possible..I can tell you these are very rare in CTF, you have to have exceptionally good teamplay and your player's need to know when they can do it, this is just by experience and knowing how each other plays.

Exactly, this exceptionally rare and awesome moment will be gone from CTF with FF on. Good point, couldn't have said it better.

Seriously .. if your FC runs away and you run to him you would try to kill the enemies (hold them up) at first instead of boosting or whatever (more useful anyway).

Everyone just tries to find more "arguments".

Maybe just give it a try? Let people play games with FF On and with FF off. Then everyone can get his own opinion about it.
This discussion is useless anyway, because the "FF On" guys got their opinion and the "FF Off" got their opinion.

5:3 is not much for both sides. More people need to share their opinion and not only like ~10.
This needs a poll since this is a community project and other decisions are made like this. In the end you will see if people like to have it On or Off.

End of discussion. (Not! )

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Can we spawn immediately (and automatically) after a death ?

Kojn, currently pickup server has FF and mirror damage off, so it couldn't be your teammate who ate your armor.

I'm mainly scared of spam weapons. Unknown, if you say there arn't spammy weapons, you seriously need to play more CTF5v5 pickup. Yesterday's pickup games showed a lot of spam defence. I don't like it. I think FF makes it more challenging and require more from everyone <- that's a nice addition to ladder/pickup CTF

Also, no one said Xonotic must be different because it's Xonotic. We have reasons to want those changes, which again you discard saying that we just want to make things differently that everyone else, proving my point you're ignoring our arguments.

Also, with 20 ppl playing pickup, 25% are for enabling FF, 15% are for disabling it, the rest is indifferent. I don't want to make a poll, as we won't really know who voted what (which would probably include ppl now playing pickup). This is important because right now we know it's pickup players who votes.

My suggestion is to use those rules we have now, discuss all the problems as they appear, and think of fixing them with the next release of xonotic, what do you say to that?

Seriously .. if your FC runs away and you run to him you would try to kill the enemies (hold them up) at first instead of boosting or whatever (more useful anyway).

Everyone just tries to find more "arguments".

Maybe just give it a try? Let people play games with FF On and with FF off. Then everyone can get his own opinion about it.
This discussion is useless anyway, because the "FF On" guys got their opinion and the "FF Off" got their opinion.

5:3 is not much for both sides. More people need to share their opinion and not only like ~10.
This needs a poll since this is a community project and other decisions are made like this. In the end you will see if people like to have it On or Off.

End of discussion. (Not! )

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Can we spawn immediately (and automatically) after a death ?

And that's what you would usually do, you would try to kill people following him, this is something that only matters in rare cases for both arguments, but it's something that can completely turn the match around, it's the tie breaker, one would put your own FC at risk and possibly kill him and the other would allow you to help daring escapes and possibly turn a loss into a victory(you need shitloads of teamwork for this).

Kojn, currently pickup server has FF and mirror damage off, so it couldn't be your teammate who ate your armor.

I'm mainly scared of spam weapons. Unknown, if you say there arn't spammy weapons, you seriously need to play more CTF5v5 pickup. Yesterday's pickup games showed a lot of spam defence. I don't like it. I think FF makes it more challenging and require more from everyone <- that's a nice addition to ladder/pickup CTF

Also, no one said Xonotic must be different because it's Xonotic. We have reasons to want those changes, which again you discard saying that we just want to make things differently that everyone else, proving my point you're ignoring our arguments.

Also, with 20 ppl playing pickup, 25% are for enabling FF, 15% are for disabling it, the rest is indifferent. I don't want to make a poll, as we won't really know who voted what (which would probably include ppl now playing pickup). This is important because right now we know it's pickup players who votes.

My suggestion is to use those rules we have now, discuss all the problems as they appear, and think of fixing them with the next release of xonotic, what do you say to that?

Not playing for a week doesn't mean I don't know how defense is done and no this isn't spam, Nexuiz had spammy weapons, here you are limited by too many things to actually use that effectively OR call it spammy. Also this type of defense is always used and if you add FF it will not go away, it always has been a part of CTF yet it isn't quite effective, there are better ways of doing it yet that depends on players. Being able to hurt your teammates won't stop you from spamming, it won't stop anyone, you just naturally think they should get out of the way. It adds an unnecessary complexity in a place people won't care to use it anyways(if you spam on the defence it won't affect your team that much since they are on the offence or some other parts of the map), the same "spam" will be there yet the awesome moments will be gone. I'm not discarding your arguments Atheros, yet I am speaking out of experience not out of OMG that would be cool, think about Nexuiz FF was added for the SAME reason, yet did anyone stop spamming/teamshooting? The answer is no, not in public games and not in pickup games.

I suggest we do not start from the Nexuiz ladder rules and use the normal Xonotic ones, IF anything is obvious enough it needs changing for the ladders it can be changed at that time, just like it always is done (don't see why you even bothered taking those from Nexuiz), the Ladder should be as close as possible to the normal game rules anyways. We have XPM or we can make mods for anything else.

Unknown, I have different memories from both, pickup and clan CTF games from nexuiz. Ppl didn't spam and didn't do mass murder on team mates.

You say it should be as closed as possible to normal Xonotic, yet you don't imagine playing 1v1 with quad, you want to lower weapon respawn time, in TDM you want to raise weapon respawn time, enable FF, in CTF you want 5 sec respawn time.

So let's use all the default settings and only add votes to change gamemodes (just as we have it already). What do you say to that? Probably a big NO and FU, kojn as you said would commit a ritual sepuku.

Most of us agree on the config already. I'm just suggesting for you to give it a try, as before Xonotic 1.0 those rules may change a few times.

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Oh, I only have 1 bad memory from pickup games. Monkey aka Ozomatli (or whatever) team fragging on purpose, but then a kickban from #xonotic.pickup solves the problem.

Unknown, I have different memories from both, pickup and clan CTF games from nexuiz. Ppl didn't spam and didn't do mass murder on team mates.

You say it should be as closed as possible to normal Xonotic, yet you don't imagine playing 1v1 with quad, you want to lower weapon respawn time, in TDM you want to raise weapon respawn time, enable FF, in CTF you want 5 sec respawn time.

So let's use all the default settings and only add votes to change gamemodes (just as we have it already). What do you say to that? Probably a big NO and FU, kojn as you said would commit a ritual sepuku.

Most of us agree on the config already. I'm just suggesting for you to give it a try, as before Xonotic 1.0 those rules may change a few times.

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Oh, I only have 1 bad memory from pickup games. Monkey aka Ozomatli (or whatever) team fragging on purpose, but then a kickban from #xonotic.pickup solves the problem.

Desperation is tough mate, 1v1 is unplayable with quad, it's too one sided. Simple enough? And you probably have selective memory, if you can remember yesterdays spam in this game and there wasn't any in Nexuiz.

As I said AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE, go back and read those four words again. Pickup always has SOME differences to adhere to the higher skill/more numbers of the players. For example you should almost always have a weapon in ctf, not wait 30 seconds because somebody else took that before you or the enemy team is controlling weapons in YOUR base. Quad is imbalanced in DUEL, duel is not FFA and it is not TDM, the modes are completely different, that's why most games call it DUEL not 1v1DM(we also call it duel remember?). Higher weapon respawn improves "Team Cooperation" in TDM and i have no idea why FF is on there, i don't play that and can't say.

Ladder ALWAYS was a BIT different, per game mode, whenever a problem in these LADDER games was found the balance was tweaked a little to provide the generally more experienced players a more enjoyable game compared to public matches, also some settings were turned on that were not used in normal game mode ie g_shootfromeye that are more usable to experienced players, something you somehow failed to grasp(which by the way is dissapointing).

I'm just trying to make a point here. If you can change it in one place, why won't you allow to change it in an other place if most of us want it? (not as a bug but as a feature)

Look most of us means 5 people from the eu, it's too little to make a decision YET, MOST of us agree on the other changes, here it's more or less split. Letting 8 votes make a change that could annoy people YET is bad. I will always be against it BUT there will be a pickup community again(most players active before are away now) making a choice like this NOW would further spite arguments in the future. Just leave it as in the normal balance(it's the logical thing to do) IF it picks up support(for example there is a MAJORITY ruling that wants to change a standard setting) you can have it, otherwise NO.

1. 8 ppl, is like 40% of active pickup players, the retest don't care about it being on or off, not active players don't get to vote as they don't play yet
2. since those rules are based on nexuiz ladder, THE LOGICAL thing to do, it to copy it, especially if most of active players that cares want it
3. as I said before, those rules arn't made frozen for the entire life of xonotic, consider them version 0.1preview, as current release
4. there is no ladder yet and pickup is the best place to test those (and other) changes before 1.0 xonotic is released and xonotic ladder starts
5. if you are so sure it's a mistake, allow us to make it so we can learn our lesson

and btw. I never played in nexuiz a spammy clan game nor a spammy pickup game. Ask kojn how did it feel to get constantly fragged by spams from crylink yestrday and last time I saw you playing was like 3 weeks ago.

1 irrelevant as said above
2 rules should be based of xonotic not nexuiz, just because it was easier does not make it right
3 exactly, you can leave them as they are, unnecessary changes are not needed
4 exactly it can be votable, as in if they want it on SPECIFICALLY to test if it's better than the current setting
5 it's just your way of forcing your idea, and forcing others to behave by your rule, see 4 above, BOTH can be allowed as valid, one needs to be votable, non-standads ftw

1. irrelevant for you, because you want to force your idea of CTF and ignore other players
2. arguable as xonotic is based on nexuiz
3. as they are, it's FF on in the config
4. I don't want 10 configs, also that way it will be better tested
5. deal with the 5:3 votes already

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Unknown, seriously, I don't think there is anything else to say on that matter from both of us

It just doesn't matter 5 people is just as good as 3, live with the standard rules or go play nexuiz. When you have a majority come back. You are just trying to force a decision based on the moment, there are still people that play nexuiz and are inactive because they have work AT the moment or whatever else problems. You won't make a decision with these small numbers just because, there are plenty others. also 5 is 40% of the people that played in the last 5 days, there are still more besides these guys.

There are ~30 ppl on #xonotic.pickup right now, and I didn't see atleast 10 of them ever playing xonotic pickup, the majority is the majority,

When there will be more ppl, more opinions based on actualy playing xonotic pickup, we may discuss it once more. Right now other than both of us accusing each other of forcing ideas, repeating same arguments over and over or insulting me saying I'm a noob, we can't do more about it. 5:3 stands for now

If were playing pickups for FF and mirror damage off already, then it should be kept off for now we have already been playing with it off then, why is why I don't understand the reasoning to turn it on..no one complained about it being off, it was me who complained about mirror damage that started this stupid 'debate'.

P.S, are you sure FF was off?

Seriously If I had known me mentioning mirror damage/FF was going to cause such a argument i'd of get my mouth shut.

P.S Yes I got kille my crylink but I wasn't being spammed with it, it was more a case of I just ran into/got hit by every shot fired, maybe the primary is a little too strong but it was on one map I experienced it so I can't really complain too much over it.

And 5:3 isn't a true majority just because there is one more vote..if it was 5:1 that would be a majority given the sample size, a sample size of 8 is lol too. Oh yeah NO and FU

There are ~30 ppl on #xonotic.pickup right now, and I didn't see atleast 10 of them ever playing xonotic pickup, the majority is the majority,

When there will be more ppl, more opinions based on actualy playing xonotic pickup, we may discuss it once more. Right now other than both of us accusing each other of forcing ideas, repeating same arguments over and over or insulting me saying I'm a noob, we can't do more about it. 5:3 stands for now

What about morfar, ai, tzork, thyr4ne, fruitiex ? just off the top of my head, there are even more people. You have no majority there, you have nothing, just some active players now trying to capitalize on the fact most of the community is dormant now. It should stay off and if you want it you can have it as a votable and viable mode. I'm sorry you took insult to that but whatever, I call everyone a noob now and then and I expect them to reason out the fact it's a joke. This doesn't give you have to be a hard head, you can have that as a votable viable mode, it's different from the standard it's different to how we played until now, there are plenty of arguments pro and a few contra. I can't see why you would want to change that, except for trying to impose a feature a fictional "majority" wants on for no reason except to you know do "something".

I said majority of those ppl who voted, you know, like sv_vote_simple_majority_factor, I've posted the link on all xonotic channels a few times, especially on pickup.

Anyways, I'm tired of ppl bitching at me. So fuck it all, hf.

As I said on IRC, go try it out if you want too I'm not going to stop you.

Unknown, you asked who put me in charge of pickup. No one did, so I won't try to assume that position. Find someone who will do it, I'll return to play pickup then.

Well, then we have to keep everything as it is by default (weapon respawn times, quad in 1v1 etc.) now, until more people comment on this.

IMO FF=off and Mirror Damage = on:

- If someone tries to teamfrag he just can't do it.
- You can boost your FC and you know if you'll die or not.

Pls turn off powerups in 1vs1 competely as they give a huge advantage.

Also 15 minutes is better for a fast an more risky play-style since you have aditional 5 minutes to come-back in comparison to now populat 10 minutes but Xonotic allready has a pretty fast movement and a high spawn-rape potential so 15 minutes could easily turn into a verry long time of rape. Most fast 1vs1 games like CPMA, QW and Wa§ow use 10 minutes timelimts for duel.

Updated the config table and ladder-config.zip contains generated config files.

For duels, I would also suggest g_footsteps 0. It would remove footstep sounds while walking (doesn't remove jumping/landing sounds).

It's not important for other game modes, but IMHO in duels having footstep sounds removes A LOT of strategy as it is impossible to be sneaky to confuse enemy of your whereabouts. You can't ever be silent unless you stand completely still.

I'm curious to know what you guys think about that, but to me, footsteps pretty much removes half the fun I can have in a duel. Always knowing where your opponent is (and knowing that he always knows where you are), that's very boring to me. It's a lot more interesting to try to figure out where my opponent is by listening for item pickups (when he's not bunnyhopping all over the place).

IMO the "it's not realistic" argument has no value at all for duels/ladder rules. The arguments should be about strategy and gameplay.

EDIT: BTW, not that it matters but just for reference, Nexuiz had footsteps disabled by default so you never had that in duels (unless it was intended by server admin). So this is new to Xonotic.

nifrek, g_footsteps is also important in CA. And it is proven you can move silently, it's just hard and work only horizontaly or when you move up, moving down always makes noises.

Anyway, I know waterlaz wants it off too and no one else doesn't object to that, so I'll think about it.

For duels, I would also suggest g_footsteps 0. It would remove footstep sounds while walking (doesn't remove jumping/landing sounds).

It's not important for other game modes, but IMHO in duels having footstep sounds removes A LOT of strategy as it is impossible to be sneaky to confuse enemy of your whereabouts. You can't ever be silent unless you stand completely still.

I'm curious to know what you guys think about that, but to me, footsteps pretty much removes half the fun I can have in a duel. Always knowing where your opponent is (and knowing that he always knows where you are), that's very boring to me. It's a lot more interesting to try to figure out where my opponent is by listening for item pickups (when he's not bunnyhopping all over the place).

IMO the "it's not realistic" argument has no value at all for duels/ladder rules. The arguments should be about strategy and gameplay.

EDIT: BTW, not that it matters but just for reference, Nexuiz had footsteps disabled by default so you never had that in duels (unless it was intended by server admin). So this is new to Xonotic.

As far as I know, if you walk crouching you don't emit footstep sounds. Then you have double strategy:

- if you want to be fast you can't be silent
- if you want to be silent you can't be fast

I played some pickup games and IMHO they are very good like they are now in this aspect (g_footsteeps).