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[SUGGESTION] graphical interface for vcalls

#1
I here come back with an old idea, but still fully needed imo.
As for the suggestion itself, everything is said in the topic title.

Let me develop some few arguments:
- vcalls by console are largely a geek-oriented function. This definitely not goes toward a democratization of the game. And even for old players, they are rather annoying to use.
- a graphical interface vcalls could be 100% compatible with console vcalls. Nothing would have to be broken.
- technically, i guess there is no big issue.
For example (it's just an example): one can prior define a list of vcalls in some .cfg file. In-game, pressing some defined key bind, the list appears and the vcall can be selected.

What do you guys think? Is it needed? Is it technically feasible?

We could obviously extend this mechanism for calling other binds.
Fat.bot.Slim
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#2
Not needed imo tilde + vhelp + vcall gotomap go. idk seems simple enough.
<[-z-]> have you seen the documentary "happy"?
<Samual_> no
<Samual_> it sounds horrible
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#3
well, someday, make a little survey on a public dm server for example and ask who knows the vcall command.
You'll see.
Fat.bot.Slim
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#4
Ok but who will know the key for it? Wink
See the default binds on the num pad, not many newbies know about them. And the console is not really hard to use. Smile
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#5
(04-16-2011, 07:33 PM)Mirio Wrote: Ok but who will know the key for it? Wink
In the bind key setup, you would have a vcall bind. Some very common vcalls (restart, kick JEFF_french, etc.) could be proposed by default.

(04-16-2011, 07:33 PM)Mirio Wrote: See the default binds on the num pad, not many newbies know about them.
True. But precisely here lies all the advantage of graphical binds: with graphical items, the selection of an option is not blind, you actually see what you are selecting and you don't have to know/memorize anything.
You even can imagine that when you press the vcall key bind, you automatically see all vcall proposed by the server you are currently playing on.

(04-16-2011, 07:33 PM)Mirio Wrote: And the console is not really hard to use.
2 answers:
- for the advanced players who knows what a vcall is, the console is not friendly to use. A graphical support would only bring some ease.
- for begginers who play Xonotic for the first times, i hope that all of you are convinced that it's not a problem of "how easy to use?", it's rather a problem of "will it be someday used?".
Again, go on a public dm servers (DCC for example): there are very descent players playing since several years who never have opened the console.

Please all keep in mind that graphical vcalls (and more generally, any kind of user-centric interface) would not address the average reader/poster of this forum.
Fat.bot.Slim
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#6
The problem is that average reader of this forum would continue to use the console so don't have a reason to implement a gui. The ones who have a reason don't have the skills.

But if somebody has some free time why not? There are plenty of players who are scared of typing commands and they want to start votes too.
chooksta Wrote:640t ought to be enuf for antibody
- microsoft windows
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#7
really this all comes down to accessibility of the GUI, and there are a lot of problems like this in any open source game. Basically, the game designers design the GUI the way they want, and don't give a damn if anyone else can use it.

So I have given up trying to argue with them about it. they are pretty much set in their ways, and unwilling to make any kind of compromise. The functionality is there, and if you cant use it, you must be stoopid.
Master of mysterious geometries

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#8
I'd like a GUI for vcalls, too! Wink
MY NOOB STATS:
[Image: 788.png]
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#9
In Nexuiz, after playing the singleplayer, I went online, played some, and noticed the voting panel appear every so often. On a busy day on HOCTF, I asked how and someone told me. I think this and related newb/pro arguments come down to if the pros will take the time to help the newbs. Like telling people bunny hop. Just stuff like that.

But ofc I'm not against a GUI Smile In general the more GUI options for players the less ––underdeveloped?–– the game will seem.
nowego [MLP:FiM]
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#10
+1 theShadow

(04-17-2011, 05:33 AM)naryl Wrote: The problem is that average reader of this forum would continue to use the console so don't have a reason to implement a gui. The ones who have a reason don't have the skills.
I'm glad someone else has written this Smile

I hope, I really hope, I really really hope that nice people who code something in xonotic are all aware that they have the mission to make xonotic a popular game (which, from my understanding of the project, is a major goal).

And, the end-user profile is obviously not the 50 members currently active on the project. So this makes no sense to develop something for the 50 active members. Instead, we have to feel/imagine what a new player will expect from xonotic and adpat developments according to this new player. Graphical vcalls is just an example of such feature.

More generally, as long as we will keep saying something like: "if the player doesn't make the effort to learn, ask how to use, and adpat to the game, then he doesn't deserve to play xonotic", the player base will remain small and geek-populated.
Fat.bot.Slim
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#11
I was bored

[Image: xonotic001022.jpg]

Available in akari/vcallgui branch @ xonotic-data, some stuff is untested.
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#12
nice shot Akari! Smile
Fat.bot.Slim
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#13
(04-17-2011, 05:00 PM)Rage_ATWM Wrote: geek-populated.

To be honest, this is one of the reasons why I like Nexuiz.
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#14
(04-18-2011, 10:55 AM)Akari Wrote: To be honest, this is one of the reasons why I like Nexuiz.
well, i can understand this. I personnaly do not have any clear stand on this. A geek game has advantages and drawbacks.

What I can only say is that this likely does not make sense to, in one hand, complain that the player base is too small and, in the other hand, to want a geek-oriented game.
Fat.bot.Slim
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#15
(04-18-2011, 11:16 AM)Rage_ATWM Wrote:
(04-18-2011, 10:55 AM)Akari Wrote: To be honest, this is one of the reasons why I like Nexuiz.
well, i can understand this. I personnaly do not have any clear stand on this. A geek game has advantages and drawbacks.

What I can only say is that this likely does not make sense to, in one hand, complain that the player base is too small and, in the other hand, to want a geek-oriented game.

Did I complain about small player base?
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#16
(04-18-2011, 11:39 AM)Akari Wrote: Did I complain about small player base?
you? probably not.
But, as far as i know, it was one of the identified starting points of Xonotic project.
Fat.bot.Slim
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#17
Information 
(04-17-2011, 03:52 AM)Rage_ATWM Wrote: Again, go on a public dm servers (DCC for example): there are very descent players playing since several years who never have opened the console.

Wow really? One should take some time to learn the console its worth it but whatever, if GUI vcalls keeps players in the game then so be it. I just don't see it.
<[-z-]> have you seen the documentary "happy"?
<Samual_> no
<Samual_> it sounds horrible
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#18
I'm definitely for the interface. I mean, sure, I can bind myself some keys to vcall my favourite map, but vcalling may be faster when done from a GUI. Try it:
[~] → [v][c][a][l][l][ ][c][h][m][a][p][ ][d][a][n][c][e] → [Enter]

vs.

[Esc] → [click on vcall window] → [click on chmap] → [click on dance] → [click 'VCALL NOW']
(08-10-2012, 02:37 AM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: Cloud is the new Web 2.0. It makes no damn sense to me.
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#19
Yes, Minkovsky, the first one is faster because you waste a lot of time grabbing the mouse and... ohwait.
chooksta Wrote:640t ought to be enuf for antibody
- microsoft windows
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#20
[~] → [v] → [c] → [a] → [l] → [l] → [SPACE] → [c] → [h] → [n] → [BACKSPACE] → [m] → [a] → [p] → [SPACE] → [r] → [u] → [n] → [n]→ [i] → [n] → [g] → [BACKSPACE] → [BACKSPACE] → [BACKSPACE] → [BACKSPACE] → [BACKSPACE] → [BACKSPACE] → [BACKSPACE]→ [d] → [a] → [n] → [c] → [r] → [BACKSPACE] → [e] → [Enter]

vs.

[Esc] → [click vcall] → [click chmap] → [click dance]

Tongue
MY NOOB STATS:
[Image: 788.png]
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#21
yeah that.
(08-10-2012, 02:37 AM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: Cloud is the new Web 2.0. It makes no damn sense to me.
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#22
(Please don't tell me people here don't know anything about UIs too. Oh well...)

(TL;DR Scroll to the last sentence)

So we're comparing console interfaces with GUIs. Console interfaces are generally faster if you know what to do because it allows you to enter the required command from one of the few tens/hundreds/thousands *without perception feedback*. But you need to read some docs to find the required command which is a slow both-way process. GUIs require you to always pay attention to what is happening on the screen. Also the most time-wasting and annoying thing about GUIs is that you constantly need to grab the mouse but for Xonotic it works for GUIs because you usually already have a mouse in your hand. So the proper comparison is as follows:

CLI:
[Probably read some docs with vhelp. Once] →
[Probably find how exactly your favourite map is called. Both of these waste too much time to consider CLI a winner.] →
[Put the right hand on the keyboard home row] →
[~] → [v] → [c] → [a] → [l] → [l] → [SPACE] → [c] → [h] → [m] → [a] → [p] → [SPACE] → [d] → [a] → [n] → [c] → [e] → [Enter]

GUI:
[ESC] → [Find where the cursor is] → [Find where the vcall button is] → [Move the cursor to the vcall button] → [Click] → [Find where the chmap is] → [Move the curor to the chmap button] → [Click] → [Probably scroll the list of maps looking for the one you want which wastes too much time to consider GUIs faster in this case] → [Move the cursor to the map name in the maplist] → [Click] → [Click]

In the worst case you'll waste more time with CLI, in the best case you'll spend nearly equivalent time depending on what human interface device (mouse or keyboard) you are more familiar with. Most geeks use keyboard a lot more often than mouse. Most gamers do not.

So GUIs can be made quite efficient in Xonotic if we try to minimize time losses. Here are some hints:
1. Highlight the cursor when the player hits [ESC]
2. Order maps by popularity so the maps you usually want to vote for are always in sight without scrolling. But there's a catch. You'll waste more time if the map is in another spot every time you vote for it.
3. Make a filter for the maplist. Using it requires shifting your hand to the keyboard and back once but it will save a lot of time when we have hundreds of maps. ;)

And there is a very obvious way to make the console more efficient. Make the client fetch the maplist on connect and tell user what maps are available when he/she/it hits [tab] after typing "vcall chmap".

And Minkovsky, as you said you can trivially bind votes to a key which is impossible with vcall GUI.

So the way to go is to make both interfaces efficient.
chooksta Wrote:640t ought to be enuf for antibody
- microsoft windows
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#23
(04-25-2011, 12:31 PM)naryl Wrote: So the way to go is to make both interfaces efficient.

I suppose.

Players should still take the small amount of time that it takes to familiarise ones self with the console, once they do that I'd bet money that they would keep using it.

~ vcall endmatch
<[-z-]> have you seen the documentary "happy"?
<Samual_> no
<Samual_> it sounds horrible
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#24
While I understand that no-one in here wants to make the game noob-friendly (or, in any case, user-friendly), GUIs are one of the things that help people feel confident about what they're doing, especially if the user is from Windows and thinks that the console is black magic, now that kind of person wouldn't know to look for a console in their game. Also consider: Mac fans. While MacOS is closer to Unix, and thus the console is more used, it still uses GUIs for most of the config stuff. Still then, people new to Xonotic are quite possibly going to "like it better clicking". A good idea would be to highlight the cursor after clicking Esc, or putting it in the centre of the screen and highlighting. As for scrolling the maplist, people would still remember names of the map, either the real ones or the printed ones, and that's probably the best basis for a filter in this case.
(08-10-2012, 02:37 AM)Mr. Bougo Wrote: Cloud is the new Web 2.0. It makes no damn sense to me.
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#25
WE'RE TALKING OF N00BS, RIGHT?


CLI:
[Search all over the internet and ask in forums and here and there how to vote in Xonotic] → [Probably read some docs with vhelp. Once] → [Probably find how exactly your favourite map is called] → [Put the right hand on the keyboard home row] → [find ~ Button] → [press ~ Key] → [find v Key] → [press v Key] → [find c Key] → [press c Key] → [find a Key] → [press a Key] → [find l Key] → [press l Key] → [press l Key] → [find SPACE Key] → [press SPACE Key] → [find c Key] → [press c Key] → [find h Key] → [press h Key] → [find m Key] → [press m Key] → [find a Key] → [press a Key] → [find p Key] → [press p Key] → [find SPACE Key] → [press SPACE Key] → [find d Key] → [press d Key] → [find a Key] → [press a Key] → [find n Key] → [press n Key] → [find c Key] → [press c Key] → [find e Key] → [press e Key] → [find ENTER Key] → [press ENTER Key]

GUI:
[ESC] → [Move the cursor to the vcall button] → [Click] → [Move the cursor to the chmap button] → [Click] → [Probably scroll the list of maps] → [Move the cursor to the map name in the maplist] → [Click] → [Click]
MY NOOB STATS:
[Image: 788.png]
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