Xonotic Serverlist Categories

Nothing wrong with sorting per se. Like you say "it allows people to find the type of gameplay they're looking for more easily". What i dislike is an implementation where everything is crammed into a single list forcing users to scroll down for a server that would otherwise be at the top. Lets say user sorts for pings looking for mods (or at least does not mind them). Now he has to scroll through dozens of unmodded servers which for a good part have unacceptable pings. A tabbed version would solve the scrolling issue while also serving as a clear indicator that there actually is more even if the unmodded tab is selected by default.

Nothing wrong with sorting per se. Like you say "it allows people to find the type of gameplay they're looking for more easily". What i dislike is an implementation where everything is crammed into a single list forcing users to scroll down for a server that would otherwise be at the top. Lets say user sorts for pings looking for mods (or at least does not mind them). Now he has to scroll through dozens of unmodded servers which for a good part have unacceptable pings. A tabbed version would solve the scrolling issue while also serving as a clear indicator that there actually is more even if the unmodded tab is selected by default.

Firstly, you can modify the sorting order of the categories... as well as which categories are even displayed... Secondly, tabs are an incredibly bad utility for displaying such information. Example: Player selects Tab A, but the only active servers are on Tab B-- they can't even scroll through the list to find more servers, and absolutely must switch tabs. It has been done in other games, and I am not satisfied with that implementation.

In design, you weigh these things... Scrolling to search is valued to cost lower than clicking to search.

Additional notes: Tabs would require stealing another row from the dialog to display their listings, decreasing the maximum number of items displayed at once. Also, they're quite ugly and would have issues with scaling with mods-- i.e. more than 5, and we'd need to create a second row for them. We do not have drop-down box support, either, so that is not an option. (Even if drop down boxes were existing, it would be far worse anyway, as this would then be two clicks to search instead of just one)

Short answer: No, tabs are less efficient.

as well as which categories are even displayed...

I might be to tired but right now i cant think of a way to do this visually without using up lots of space (as tabs do) but you probably got this covered already.

Secondly, tabs are an incredibly bad utility for displaying such information. Example: Player selects Tab A, but the only active servers are on Tab B-- they can't even scroll through the list to find more servers, and absolutely must switch tabs. It has been done in other games, and I am not satisfied with that implementation.

With all due respect but if you fear not having a single active server in the default category this whole thing is overkill, isnt it?

Additional notes: Tabs would require stealing another row from the dialog to display their listings, decreasing the maximum number of items displayed at once. Also, they're quite ugly and would have issues with scaling with mods-- i.e. more than 5, and we'd need to create a second row for them. We do not have drop-down box support, either, so that is not an option. (Even if drop down boxes were existing, it would be far worse anyway, as this would then be two clicks to search instead of just one)

Yes, tabs are hard to pull off nicely. Never had any illusions about that and to be honest if you really want to categorize every single mod on its own tabs are undoable. No denying that but do really want to do that? I mean when your game gets popular you will be swamped in mods. Even a scrolled list wont be that pretty when the header entries slowly approach the 50% mark.

Thank you for providing good reasons with your answer, Samual. Wannabeuser, you indeed seem to have been very tired when you wrote this as it is hard to identify your point... With the ability to sort categories every user will be able to find his preferred game modes at the top of the list while seeing other active servers at the same time. What's more to wish and where would tabs be better?

Thank you for providing good reasons with your answer, Samual. Wannabeuser, you indeed seem to have been very tired when you wrote this as it is hard to identify your point... With the ability to sort categories every user will be able to find his preferred game modes at the top of the list while seeing other active servers at the same time. What's more to wish and where would tabs be better?

Ok, this is going to be hard. How am i supposed to answer this in a professional manner? I guess i wasnt bold enough to get across to you. Sorry about that but i like to keep it polite and repeating/clarifying myself ad nauseam gets old very fast. Also i know very well whatever i say wont change anything so i have little interest in starting a war over it.

Apologies, it was not my intention to disqualify your post neither to attack you. I just really did not understand from your post how Tabs would solve the problems any better than the current implementation. But maybe you didn't even intend to make that statement?

Glad to hear that. If that wasnt your intention no offense taken of course. I have to admit that my reply to Samual was really a bit hazy which is mainly because i tried to be the least confrontational as possible while still getting across that there isnt as definitive of an answer as he tried to make it look like so i hope you can forgive me that i got a bit irritated.

Ok to get back to topic: Yes, i fully intended to make that statement and i will stand firmly behind it even if it contradicts some design paradigm but i would be more than happy to just agree to disagree. At least id like to avoid wasting more time before i know how for example "as well as which categories are even displayed..." is implemented. At the moment i cant imagine how this is going to work: Having lots of checkboxes in the browser - well that wastes pretty much the same space as tabs. A clickthrough label with a single checkbox to enable/disable the current category - well thats just going to be a nightmare if you really want to categorize every mod (especially if clicking is generally as bad as Samual thinks). Config pages or cvars obviously dont count.

In my opinion the most intuitive way for users to do something is clicking on a clearly labeled button (which a tab pretty much qualifies as). Sure having more than a single row of buttons is pretty much out of the question but thats just fine in my opinion. It removes complexity. Not only for the user but also the guy that has to separate the different mods. I mean have you seen a popular quake based game? Modding it is so easy every guy and its dog is going to add its favorite kind of fluffy bunny.

Ok and now i am going to enjoy the nice spring evening here. Hopefully i could at least get across where i am coming from and we can start to agree to disagree.

Thank you for clarifying. I still find it more important that, if their favorite servers are empty, people see what other servers have players on without having to click on another tab. But as with many things, it boils down to what priorities you weigh heavier. It might very well be that if the popularity of this game expands (and with it the number of mods to be potentially categorized), a solution with tabs is easier to handle. For now I'd settle on an agreement to disagree :o)

(Did you intentionally close the thread, Halogene?)

A (scrollable) list box containing the mods with the ability to select multiple mods to filter them would seem like a fine compromise to me, would it not?

Huh, did I close it? No, not intentionally. I was accessing this through my phone, so who knows where my chubby fingers went. :o/

A (scrollable) list box containing the mods with the ability to select multiple mods to filter them would seem like a fine compromise to me, would it not?

Oh, nice. I did not think of this. Yes, i agree - at least in theory - that seems like a reasonable space/usuability compromise to me.

What about foldable list categories, expanded by default?
For each category show number of servers / number of active servers, e.g. Modified Servers (3/20). BTW, this feature seems nice to have even in the current implementation.
Maybe by default keep collapsed categories without active servers.

Regarding foldable list categories: We discussed that upon original implementation, it's technically not practical as it adds quite a lot of extra processing for what is essentially a filtering device which could be a lot faster using the real filtering system.

Maybe they can be in a separate category (at the bottom of the list).

I think that turning off "Show Empty" does it for me very well. Without the 14-day bias, but I don't care.

People run Xonotic servers, take time, offer their hardware, network traffic, and pay bills - to get kicked from the game's Server List for not having luck with players for two weeks? D'oh! I think we'd not only keep loosing players, but find ourselves short on playing space... remember - the server admins don't get paid for this, they do it as a gift!

I think it's up to all of us to get more people come and stay here. I have started a thread just about that.

I think that turning off "Show Empty" does it for me very well. Without the 14-day bias, but I don't care.

People run Xonotic servers, take time, offer their hardware, network traffic, and pay bills - to get kicked from the game's Server List for not having luck with players for two weeks? D'oh! I think we'd not only keep loosing players, but find ourselves short on playing space... remember - the server admins don't get paid for this, they do it as a gift!

I think it's up to all of us to get more people come and stay here. I have started a thread just about that.

The problem is that show empty is disabled by default, and a new player will see a huge list of empty servers and they may think that nobody is playing thus turning them away