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Poll: Do you like the current direction of balanceFruit.cfg
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balanceFruit.cfg

I thought kojn wants the camping rifle to become a sniping weapon.

Making the nex fire faster would make it exactly like the camping rifle. Instead of removing one of them, why not provide the alternative?
(07-23-2010, 11:56 AM)Flying Steel Wrote: you just run the risk of this becoming the third rebalance attempt in a row to never see the light of day.

If players wish so, we stick to the Nexuiz 2.5 balance.
("we" as in the community, developers, players)

Poll results suggest otherwise, but maybe that's because many haven't been able to participate in testing, and many players aren't even active on the forum (how do they expect the developers to have any clue WHAT kind of balance they want then?)
I'm trying my best to keep the majority happy here, but everyone won't be happy no matter what we do.
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(07-23-2010, 10:41 AM)parasti Wrote: So camping with a nex = good, using nex in combos = bad... Err. What exactly are you smoking. wanna share some of that?

This isn't what i said, your either being completely ignorant and/or purposely missinterperating what I wrote.

I won't bother to reply to such replies in the future.
(07-23-2010, 01:08 PM)FruitieX Wrote: I thought kojn wants the camping rifle to become a sniping weapon.

Making the nex fire faster would make it exactly like the camping rifle. Instead of removing one of them, why not provide the alternative?
(07-23-2010, 11:56 AM)Flying Steel Wrote: you just run the risk of this becoming the third rebalance attempt in a row to never see the light of day.

If players wish so, we stick to the Nexuiz 2.5 balance.
("we" as in the community, developers, players)

Poll results suggest otherwise, but maybe that's because many haven't been able to participate in testing, and many players aren't even active on the forum (how do they expect the developers to have any clue WHAT kind of balance they want then?)

Flying_Steel I did indeed ask for the camping rifle to have some changes done to it, it's really easy to use actually/aim, the nex seems better suited at the moment, because of this 'stickness', think it was Halogene who gave it that name which means it isn't used all the time due to it's less effectiveness close quarters, I know for a fact I would run around with the sniper (camping rifle) all the time if I had it and use it in long and close range fights, I mean sure we can try it on Sunday in the game replacing the nex with it and see how people find it whether they think it's too strong, used too much etc, no problem with doing that, but it may turn out to be too strong as it currently is so we would need to tweak it, and obviously see if people like using it, this is important.

Also, headshot's are not as hard to hit/take skill as you might think. ( Either that, or I just am aiming higher then most other people ).

I also am confused with what you want to do with the nex to make it 'fixed', the 'stickyness' doesn't fix anything, all it does it basically allowing for the animation to finish, which in such makes using it all the time less effective when your close that's all, I don't see how it'll promote people camping, if they want too, they will do, it'll promote the weapon being used less up close unless your prepared to fire a shot off and wait for (stickyness/animtime), or fire 2 shots or more.

It'll already helps simplify this 'problem' you speak of, of the nex being too useful in every situation, it was never put in purposely as far as i'm aware, it was always like that since I tried it in XPM a while ago..also, ask FrutieX how much I bitched about it before I took things into consideration.

Stickyness is the wrong word to use, it's the animation time, like Halogene said if there was something to show on the weapon that it was reloading/or/when it's ready to shoot again you'd know when you could swap to another weapon, personally I don't have trouble but I can imagine some will without some kind of colour change to show they can shoot again or swap weapon.

Also I find it highly critical you comment on that, I thought you hadn't even compiled xonotic yet?? And I thought you were a believer of making this weapon less used all the time, If I'm wrong on the compiling part I apologise.
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I agree with flying steel and parasiti. You're just making it so that nobody will use the nex in any situation other than the most unusual situations in 1v1 matches. You can't use it in a serious dm or tdm firefight, as you will basically be totally defenseless (can't laser out of there even) after firing one nex shot. However, camping with the nex will not change at all, it will be business as usual. Campers don't give a damn about weapon switch time, they don't need to switch weapons. You're basically solidifying the nex's function as a camping weapon, which I assume you do not want.

I also agree with merging nex and rifle. Nex damage could be moved down to 80-90, while headshot damage can be around 100. I hate having two weapons that do virtually the exact same thing. Another good point is angular velocity - it's much easier to camp with the nex than to use it well at close range, with a person in your face moving all about.

Combos are highly important to the game. A lot (and I mean a lot) of people are currently comfortable with the mortar nex combo, which is quite popular. You cripple the nex in this way, they're going to be just mortaring, and that makes for a less interesting game. Oh, wait - they can't mortar either, because mortar primary only explodes on contact with a player - sticky grenades are only useful in chance situations which might happen once in 10 games. Every other time they will explode harmlessly far far away from anyone. So now you've got a group of people who play xonotic, try to do a mortar nex combo, find mortar does not explode when contacting floor, find nex refuses to switch like a normal weapon, and they think "lol this sux" and go play another game.

When it comes to the mortar, old mortar primary is perfect. It's range means that you can't use it for long ranges, and it's explosion radius means you can't use it in close range. It is exclusively a medium range weapon, it's not the all purpose weapon that you make it out to be.
(07-23-2010, 01:13 PM)kojn^ Wrote: This isn't what i said, your either being completely ignorant and/or purposely missinterperating what I wrote.
It's definitely what you are implying/working toward.


(07-23-2010, 01:13 PM)kojn^ Wrote: Flying_Steel I did indeed ask for the camping rifle to have some changes done to it, it's really easy to use actually/aim,
How is this possible? If anything, I have more trouble hitting people with crifle than with nex.

(07-23-2010, 01:13 PM)kojn^ Wrote: I also am confused with what you want to do with the nex to make it 'fixed', the 'stickyness' doesn't fix anything, all it does it basically allowing for the animation to finish, which in such makes using it all the time less effective when your close that's all, I don't see how it'll promote people camping, if they want too, they will do, it'll promote the weapon being used less up close unless your prepared to fire a shot off and wait for (stickyness/animtime), or fire 2 shots or more.
Because people will decide "hey, I can't combo with this weapon, it's clearly not meant for this. However, this stickiness doesn't affect the possibility to snipe, so let's try that out."

(07-23-2010, 01:13 PM)kojn^ Wrote: Stickyness is the wrong word to use, it's the animation time, like Halogene said if there was something to show on the weapon that it was reloading/or/when it's ready to shoot again you'd know when you could swap to another weapon, personally I don't have trouble but I can imagine some will without some kind of colour change to show they can shoot again or swap weapon.
Don't make this into a marketing issue, we're not discussing the name or aesthetics.
(07-18-2010, 10:59 AM)Flying Steel Wrote: How could anyone with ADHD tell its a high damage weapon if it wasn't a gigantic metal cock fucking the map whenever a player gets within 3 meters of a wall?

[Image: di-712770583645.png]
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(07-23-2010, 01:13 PM)kojn^ Wrote: This isn't what i said, your either being completely ignorant and/or purposely missinterperating what I wrote.

I won't bother to reply to such replies in the future.

I was addressing Flying Steel, actually, and it was just a random childish stab at the first thing I saw. I'm not even following the discussion or the progress of the proposed weapon balance, to be honest. The basic premise here is, Nexuiz sucks, let's change everything while borrowing stuff from mainstream DM games. Since I don't agree with that at all, I can't really add anything constructive to the discussion, therefore I just troll.
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and they think "lol this sux" and go play another game. <-- First of all didn't they do this with nexuiz, 1.5 million+ downloads and only a few hundred players, speaks volumes, something has to give, if you don't want to accept that fact, fine by me.

As for the mortar I will ask frutiex to make that change on sunday so we can try it out, as for the nexgun i'm not going to ask frutiex to change it, I don't believe he will either.

Is it that hard to bring yourselve to learn something new?

Slowly, you are making me turn this thead into having to defend every change constantly, I won't do that anymore, I feel I won't be able to ever come to some kind of compromise with you (plasmasheep), so I won't try.

I will continue to ask frutiex to make changes based on feedback of what people give, but it will get to a point where the time will have to come to say 'this won't be changed' in this balance because there will be a belief that it doesn't need to be, someone's not going to be happy with something, it's the way it's going to happen.
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(07-23-2010, 02:19 PM)kojn^ Wrote: and they think "lol this sux" and go play another game. <-- First of all didn't they do this with nexuiz, 1.5 million+ downloads and only a few hundred players, speaks volumes, something has to give, if you don't want to accept that fact, fine by me.
Lots of ways to interpret this.

(07-23-2010, 02:19 PM)kojn^ Wrote: Is it that hard to bring yourselve to learn something new?
Is it that hard to bring yourself to leave it alone?

(07-23-2010, 02:19 PM)kojn^ Wrote: Slowly, you are making me turn this thead into having to defend every change constantly, I won't do that anymore, I feel I won't be able to ever come to some kind of compromise with you (plasmasheep), so I won't try.
No compromise? Really? I've already suggested making sticky nades secondary, which is definitely a compromise from my ideal of removing them entirely.
(07-18-2010, 10:59 AM)Flying Steel Wrote: How could anyone with ADHD tell its a high damage weapon if it wasn't a gigantic metal cock fucking the map whenever a player gets within 3 meters of a wall?

[Image: di-712770583645.png]
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(07-23-2010, 01:13 PM)kojn^ Wrote: Flying_Steel I did indeed ask for the camping rifle to have some changes done to it, it's really easy to use actually/aim, the nex seems better suited at the moment,

. . .

Also, headshot's are not as hard to hit/take skill as you might think. ( Either that, or I just am aiming higher then most other people ).

The headshot area is still much, much smaller than the entire player bounding box. This must make it more of a challenge to hit. making this area even smaller than it already is should make this even smaller.

So this is a fundamental difference between the Rifle and Nex which allows the former to fit into a niche and actually be balanced. If this is still insufficient, there's other things that can be done to make it fit one role or another, like range-damage falloff which no one has even looked at since it was implemented like a year ago.

Quote:I also am confused with what you want to do with the nex to make it 'fixed', the 'stickyness' doesn't fix anything,

You said yourself that the nex, along with the mortar and another weapon were used much more than the rest of the weapons. And also that the weapons aren't tactical enough or can all be used for every situation. Well the Nex was used for every situation, more so than any weapon.

But you are not sure if this is something that needs to be fixed and the weapon switch delay on the nex is purely a graphical feature for an animation that hasn't been implemented yet? It isn't meant to change the balance or is it? I don't really understand.

Quote:And I thought you were a believer of making this weapon less used all the time, If I'm wrong on the compiling part I apologise.

I am for making the Nex less overpowered. I've said that in every post that mentions the weapon. But it sounds like it will not be changed enough to be really balanced, and this weapon switch delay, while maybe making the Nex less overpowered, is not a very intuitive or clean solution, since it only happens with the Nex gun in particular.

I would much rather see the Nex debuffed in one or more ways besides this. And you could probably get away with it now politically speaking, because everyone dislikes the delay so much they'd take just about any other debuff. But it sounds like fruitiex is very attached to the legacy functionality of this weapon, so it is unlikely to truely change for the better, and that's what I was responding to.

Quote:Also I find it highly critical you comment on that, I thought you hadn't even compiled xonotic yet??

The trouble is. . . well. . . I can't! It's very frustrating, I've spent hours trying to figure it out but the damn thing just won't compile, the error it gives makes no sense to me and neither does it ring a bell for anyone else in the community apparently. Maybe it's because I'm using windows and everyone else is on a 'nix version.

But the bottom line is I probably won't be able to try this balance out until the first Xonotic unstable release, assuming that happens. That's got to be at least a month away, which means I'd otherwise have to remain totally silent about this until the balance is nearly mature.
(04-01-2010, 11:21 AM)Roanoke Wrote: Yes, beveled edges are more futuristic. Like BSG and their beveled paper.
But only on one edge.
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Ok, well we can always try new ideas obviously, I guess it's just there is a balance now what I would consider is getting closer and closer to being at a stage of going 'ok, happy with this, let's have a few games with it and see how it goes without changing something'

Did you get Mr.Bougo's .exe program thing for windows to install xonotic, he has helped me out with errors I have gotten along the way. i'm on Win7 64Bit and it works fine for me.

Oh yea, divVerent fixed the xonotic physics, people should really like this, easier to get used to then XPM, as to gain speed you just hop forward like in nexuiz.
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By the way, we will try with what is the sniper rifle now also..I know when it was tested originally people did quite like it, it seemed so we will definitely use that on Sunday.

FrutieX, has put the nexuiz mortar as primary on mortar with some changes, and sticky nades on secondary I think.
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(07-23-2010, 01:13 PM)kojn^ Wrote: Also, headshot's are not as hard to hit/take skill as you might think. ( Either that, or I just am aiming higher then most other people ).
Or, you have better aimbots than the others
Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin
Jokes aside, it really is easy to hit with (and not a problem if you miss, fast reload Smile)

(07-23-2010, 01:13 PM)kojn^ Wrote: ask FrutieX how much I bitched about it before I took things into consideration.
Too much. XD

(07-23-2010, 01:13 PM)kojn^ Wrote: Stickyness is the wrong word to use, it's the animation time, like Halogene said if there was something to show on the weapon that it was reloading/or/when it's ready to shoot again you'd know when you could swap to another weapon, personally I don't have trouble but I can imagine some will without some kind of colour change to show they can shoot again or swap weapon.
The q3 rail afaik is completely still as well. It instead uses a "reloading" sound... Color might work too.
(07-23-2010, 01:58 PM)Roanoke Wrote: I also agree with merging nex and rifle. Nex damage could be moved down to 80-90, while headshot damage can be around 100. I hate having two weapons that do virtually the exact same thing. Another good point is angular velocity - it's much easier to camp with the nex than to use it well at close range, with a person in your face moving all about.

We could nerf the nex to death on distance.
Or we could just trust the mapper not to break their large, open map by putting the Nex into it.
(07-23-2010, 01:58 PM)Roanoke Wrote: Oh, wait - they can't mortar either, because mortar primary only explodes on contact with a player
Wrong, mortar primary was just changed back to the way it was in Nexuiz. Secondaries are sticky instead (eletctro secondaries take the place of nades?)
(07-23-2010, 02:11 PM)parasti Wrote: Since I don't agree with that at all, I can't really add anything constructive to the discussion, therefore I just troll.

It's always nice to bash on the people who try to balance out the game.
(07-23-2010, 02:23 PM)Roanoke Wrote: Is it that hard to bring yourself to leave it alone?

Mind you, the Nexuiz 2.5 balance config will definitely stay there, at the very least in the form of a mod.
(07-23-2010, 03:53 PM)Flying Steel Wrote: The headshot area is still much, much smaller than the entire player bounding box. This must make it more of a challenge to hit.
You're right, it does take a fair amount of luck/skill to hit that small bbox. It sure is different from the nex...

(07-23-2010, 03:53 PM)Flying Steel Wrote: So this is a fundamental difference between the Rifle and Nex which allows the former to fit into a niche and actually be balanced. If this is still insufficient, there's other things that can be done to make it fit one role or another, like range-damage falloff which no one has even looked at since it was implemented like a year ago.
Current balanceFruit.cfg already uses this, with the following params (shamelessly stolen from the Nexuiz balance)
Code:
set g_balance_nex_damagefalloff_mindist 1000
set g_balance_nex_damagefalloff_maxdist 3000
set g_balance_nex_damagefalloff_halflife 2000
set g_balance_nex_damagefalloff_forcehalflife 2000
I think we need to tweak this still, as we sure didn't touch it yet. Maybe as I mentioned above, by making it even weaker on longer distances, and decrease the mindist?
(07-23-2010, 03:53 PM)Flying Steel Wrote: I would much rather see the Nex debuffed in one or more ways besides this. And you could probably get away with it now politically speaking, because everyone dislikes the delay so much they'd take just about any other debuff. But it sounds like fruitiex is very attached to the legacy functionality of this weapon, so it is unlikely to truely change for the better, and that's what I was responding to.

The camping rifle _is_ already the debuffed Nex though, isn't it? A "debuffed" Nex would have lower refire, lower damage right, and that's just what the camping rifle has? Smile
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trololol
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Sorry to change the subject, but I have an idea for the melee implementation, and the shotgun secondary function.

My idea for melee is that it would be an off-handed circle saw gauntlet instead of a weapon whip. You bind it to M4/M5, or some suitable keyboard key by default. It would prevent you from firing your weapon as long as you're using it.

As for the shotgun, I imagine a double barreled gun model (the current model was obviously made with the rapid secondary fire we had in Nexuiz in mind), similar to a SPAS-12, except with some futuristic changes perhaps. It would fire 12 pellets for primary, and they would be spread in a perfect pattern instead of being random (see: CPMA). The primary's spread should make it fairly easy to hit all the pellets in a close-medium distance, a bit like the Nexuiz shotgun, except a bit more spread out than that. Considering the 64 damage that all the pellets do ATM, I think that's fair.

Meanwhile, the secondary will fire, you guessed it, both barrels simultaneously. it would fire 24 pellets, and spend 2 shells instead of one. They would spread in twice as big of a circle (the 12 extra pellets spread around an identical pattern to the primary's spread pattern), so even though the max damage is twice the primary damage, it would be hard to hit with all of the pellets unless you're firing at a group. Also, the reloading time may or may not be doubled for secondary (maybe not considering the drawbacks it already has)
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(07-24-2010, 05:33 AM)Beefeater Wrote: Sorry to change the subject, but I have an idea for the melee implementation, and the shotgun secondary function.

My idea for melee is that it would be an off-handed circle saw gauntlet instead of a weapon whip. You bind it to M4/M5, or some suitable keyboard key by default. It would prevent you from firing your weapon as long as you're using it.

As for the shotgun, I imagine a double barreled gun model (the current model was obviously made with the rapid secondary fire we had in Nexuiz in mind), similar to a SPAS-12, except with some futuristic changes perhaps. It would fire 12 pellets for primary, and they would be spread in a perfect pattern instead of being random (see: CPMA). The primary's spread should make it fairly easy to hit all the pellets in a close-medium distance, a bit like the Nexuiz shotgun, except a bit more spread out than that. Considering the 64 damage that all the pellets do ATM, I think that's fair.

Meanwhile, the secondary will fire, you guessed it, both barrels simultaneously. it would fire 24 pellets, and spend 2 shells instead of one. They would spread in twice as big of a circle (the 12 extra pellets spread around an identical pattern to the primary's spread pattern), so even though the max damage is twice the primary damage, it would be hard to hit with all of the pellets unless you're firing at a group. Also, the reloading time may or may not be doubled for secondary (maybe not considering the drawbacks it already has)

Interesting idea. I'd like to keep the "weapon whip" though, as it has proven to be much more useful than a gauntlet. Tongue
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(07-24-2010, 05:52 AM)FruitieX Wrote: Interesting idea. I'd like to keep the "weapon whip" though, as it has proven to be much more useful than a gauntlet. Tongue

Well yeah, the weapon whip would work just as well in combination with my shotgun idea (just whip for all weapons), but I think a gauntlet is potentially more useful because it hits the instant you reach and aim at the enemy, instead of depending on timing of the melee swing itself. I personally prefer the Q3 gauntlet to for example, the TF2 melee weapons Tongue Maybe the hit detection thing you implemented (where hit detection follows the swing animation) would make the whip more useful than a gauntlet, but on the other hand, one could put a radius for the gauntlet so you don't have to aim on-the-spot to hit with that either Smile I think a gauntlet-like melee may prove more useful for a fast paced game like Xonotic, too (even though you run slower than Nexuiz (good thing))
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(07-24-2010, 06:04 AM)Beefeater Wrote: (even though you run slower than Nexuiz (good thing))

Unfortunately (?), sv_maxspeed was upped back to 400 from 320...
I liked 320 too, now it's just a bit fast on the ground (but in the air perfect)
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Not unfortunately - keep that speed!
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(07-24-2010, 06:32 AM)FruitieX Wrote:
(07-24-2010, 06:04 AM)Beefeater Wrote: (even though you run slower than Nexuiz (good thing))

Unfortunately (?), sv_maxspeed was upped back to 400 from 320...
I liked 320 too, now it's just a bit fast on the ground (but in the air perfect)

Aha... You know, I'm not sure if this is a good idea, but perhaps we could turn the walking speed back down, and make jumping instantly raise the speed you had when walking by 25%, so if you were running at full speed (320) and jumped you would instantly travel at 400, until you reach the ground/stop jumping. I think Counter-Strike works a bit like this, may be worth looking into? /OT
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The current walk speed is not as bad as I thought with the current default xonotic movement.

Beefeater, because the current defaults don't use strafing, the walkspeed is higher so when you circle jump you start off fairly quickly, the turning is the same as CPMA/XPM though or acts the same anyway, we had a problem before that when it was set to 320 it took an absolute age to gain up speed, reason for no strafing is because divVerent doesn't want the default physics to be cheatable..or less cheatable as possible.

Also the people who tried the current default physics out last night atleast, said that they liked the physics.

I mean, we could try your idea out though I guess, but I think more people will prefer the 400 setting.
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You should just leave it at 320, because it takes about a week of using and complaining about a new physics set before forum folks get used to it and decide it's actually better, anyway. Smile

Weapons--

Okay good to hear the Nex has falloff and I agree that it's definitely something to look into to make this weapon work. I mean, how much less would you snipe with it if it only did 25 damage at a distance?

Also if you haven't gotten to it yet, could you add a melee attack to laser secondary at some point? Be it stab or swing, doesn't really matter to me, but I think a melee attack in general really fits this weapon as a secondary.
(04-01-2010, 11:21 AM)Roanoke Wrote: Yes, beveled edges are more futuristic. Like BSG and their beveled paper.
But only on one edge.
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I agree with walkspeed of 400.

Flying steel, laser does have short range secondary.

@Fruitiex, you still haven't explained why not merge the rifle and the nex, or why not up nex reload instead of making it sticky.
(07-18-2010, 10:59 AM)Flying Steel Wrote: How could anyone with ADHD tell its a high damage weapon if it wasn't a gigantic metal cock fucking the map whenever a player gets within 3 meters of a wall?

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I think this balance is likely to just either use the nex, or the rifle, TBC as of yet.
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(07-18-2010, 08:39 PM)FruitieX Wrote:
Code:
./all checkout fruitiex/fruitbalance

So I did this and then compiled.

But the altered weapon graphics don't seem to show, is this normal? It is hard to time shotgun swings if there is no animation and such.

Also my ping on the server is kind of high, so I should probably do some offline testing too; anyone know where to check out some good maps?
(04-01-2010, 11:21 AM)Roanoke Wrote: Yes, beveled edges are more futuristic. Like BSG and their beveled paper.
But only on one edge.
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(07-24-2010, 03:09 PM)Flying Steel Wrote:
(07-18-2010, 08:39 PM)FruitieX Wrote:
Code:
./all checkout fruitiex/fruitbalance

So I did this and then compiled.

But the altered weapon graphics don't seem to show, is this normal? It is hard to time shotgun swings if there is no animation and such.

Also my ping on the server is kind of high, so I should probably do some offline testing too; anyone know where to check out some good maps?

Again, for the maps issue: cd into the directory "xonotic/data/xonotic-maps.pk3dir". Then, run these commands (again, not sure if you need the first one but this is how I did it)

Code:
git checkout parasti/allmaps
git checkout parasti/rebase/allmaps
cd ../..
./all update-maps
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I have same problem as you flying_steel got all the files in frutiex's branch but can't see the electro beam properly or the shotgun animation. for secondary.
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Can't see the electro beam, too! only some errors displayed Sad
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