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[SUGGESTION] Vortex changes

#1
Kinda continuing the last post which I could find which has here https://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php?tid=8121
NOTE: in terms of testing any vortex variables yourself please be aware that there is a bug that in the recent autobuilds charging looks to take twice as long when comparing to 0.8.2 stable release. For example charge limit 1, charge rate 0.2, charge start 0 should take 5 seconds to go from 0% charge to 100% charge with the 20% charge gained per second rate which is the case for stable but for some reason on autobuild it takes 10 seconds. Please be aware of this when testing any variables yourself or discussing variables with others. I do not know what causes or caused this change.

EDIT: I've been told that the difference in charge time was due to g_balance_vortex_charge_always which was implemented 2.5 years ago AFTER stable release(it does not work in the stable at all) which makes vortex charging take twice as long if enabled. I brainfarted and forgot to include this cvar in the proposed changes where I meant to have it, it is now there. I also removed g_balance_vortex_charge_start from the proposed changes after learning that it infact does not affect the amount of charge vortex begins to recharge with after having fired, it only changes how much charge vortex has when it's freshly picked off the ground or a player (re)spawns with the vortex. This is not something which is a major factor in current vortex balancing.

I would like to propose the following cvarchanges
g_balance_vortex_charge_always 1
(g_balance_vortex_charge_limit 1 as it is)
g_balance_vortex_charge_rate 0.6 ->  g_balance_vortex_charge_rate 0.4 (effective charge rate is halved by g_balance_vortex_charge_always 1, use 0.2 if you wish to see the charge rate I propose without having always charging on for some reason)
for a total of 5s recharge time

(g_balance_vortex_charge_mindmg 40 as it is)
(g_balance_vortex_primary_damage 80 as it is)


Currently no other weapon is capable to the same amount of DPS at long range and vortex stands alone at the top, completely uncontested. I would like to propose these changes to make the vortex's uncontested position not as strong to encourage the use of other weapons more but to not remove vortex's role as the railgun capable of long range domination completely. The changes would mostly only impact rapid firing of the vortex without the usage of other weapons.


Currently in autobuild:
If vortex is used alone to fire shots one after another as fast as possible the damage per shot is 76 damage per 1.5 seconds.

If vortex is used while comboing the damage which vortex does per shot is 59.


With these cvar changes in autobuild:
If vortex is used alone to fire shots one after another as fast as possible the damage per shot would drop to 52 (from 76) damage per 1.5 seconds.

Damage when shot while comboing back and forward with a single weapon (with 0.3 animation time and 0.2 drop and raise time) would also drop to 52 (from 59) vortex damage per 1.6 seconds (vortex shot was just shot before, start of the cycle, 0.5 anim, 0.2 drop vortex, 0.2 raise another weapon, fire another weapon with 0.3 anim, drop another weapon 0.2, raise vortex 0.2, fire vortex to end the cycle).

Damage when shot while comboing in a triangle with 2 other weapons in a circular cycle would be basically the same as now with 58 (58 vs. 59 is basically hair splitting, identical) vortex damage per 2.2 seconds (vortex shot was just shot before, start of the cycle, 0.5 anim, 0.2 drop vortex, 0.2 raise weapon1, fire weapon1 with 0.3 anim, drop weapon1 0.2, 0.2 raise weapon2, fire weapon2 with 0.3 anim, drop weapon2 0.2, raise vortex 0.2, fire vortex to end the cycle).

Damage after having vortex in your pockets for 5 seconds for it to be fully charged would be the same 80 damage which people love to poke with in duels.


TL;DR Currently it's possible to have first shot be from 59 to 80 damage depending on if you remembered to hold vortex in your hand while out of combat. With these changes first shot after not having fired vortex for 5 seconds would always be 80 damage now and would reward hitting the first vortex shot with good aim. Only holding vortex firing would drop in DPS, comboing between vortex and another weapon would receiving a tiny barely noticeable damage nerf, comboing with vortex and 2 other weapons in a circular cycle would be the same as before.



And as we all know the knockback for vortex is way too high, completely blasting people off the maps unless they are moving towards the shooter and a vortex shot will also almost always stop all momentum or even sends backwards anyone trying to get closer to the vortex user making it impossible to engage a good vortex user with jumping horizontally from a wall with blaster or devastator making it only possible to ambush them. Ambushing isn't an option in open maps so the only option is to resort to vortex vs. vortex hide and peek fights.
g_balance_vortex_primary_force 400 -> g_balance_vortex_primary_force 200
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#2
I think weakening it could be a good idea. But making it less fun to use... i don't like.

I would make it do like 40% damage, 60%force and almost double the refire speed. So you shoot almost twice as often but doing effectively only 80% the damage.
Its a little more forgiving when you miss but also does significantly less damage then. It will also make camping a little less effective but still good to finish off someone.
Waiting 5 seconds to shoot takes all the fun away...
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#3
(02-25-2021, 03:03 PM)_para Wrote: I think weakening it could be a good idea. But making it less fun to use... i don't like.

I would make it do like 40% damage, 60%force and almost double the refire speed. So you shoot almost twice as often but doing effectively only 80% the damage.
Its a little more forgiving when you miss but also does significantly less damage then. It will also make camping a little less effective but still good to finish off someone.
Waiting 5 seconds to shoot takes all the fun away...

Why would you wait to fully charge when it has linear charge from 40 to 80? Firing twice and dealing 50+50 damage in 3 seconds is already higher than firing once for 80 damage in 5 seconds...
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#4
I don't have the exact numbers and the charge thing is irrelevant to me. I'd solve the numbers to however it works. That's why I used the %. I assume how it is and it should refire ~twice as fast while dealing less than half damage. The force should be somewhat lower then but still push you as it is intended.

I agree that the vortex is a bit too string. But in principal dealing the same amount of damage but wait even longer for an already slow weapon in this fast paced game makes no sense to me. That's why I would split the damage into 2 shots essentially. That way the weapon is also a bit more forgiving.
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#5
(02-26-2021, 09:24 AM)_para Wrote: I don't have the exact numbers and the charge thing is irrelevant to me. I'd solve the numbers to however it works. That's why I used the %. I assume how it is and it should refire ~twice as fast while dealing less than half damage. The force should be somewhat lower then but still push you as it is intended.

I agree that the vortex is a bit too string. But in principal dealing the same amount of damage but wait even longer for an already slow weapon in this fast paced game makes no sense to me. That's why I would split the damage into 2 shots essentially. That way the weapon is also a bit more forgiving.
I'm afraid that change would ruin vortex's combo viability. If you look at electro's primary fire it has a higher fire rate but lower damage per shot, the single weapon DPS is about the same as mortar's but due to the timings it only has 3/4ths of the combo damage as mortar has. Xonotic's current nature is VERY combo heavy, mg does have 100 paper DPS compared to comboing's ~80 DPS but due to the very high spread its actual DPS is way lower. Hagar has a whopping 150 paper DPS but it's impossible to aim at any opponents which actually moves making the DPS most often range from 10 to 0. Electro's primary is currently the only weapon which doesn't have high damage per shot nor does it have very high paper DPS like mg and hagar which are situationally viable, Electro is just useless, I feel like with those railgun changes railgun would be completely stupid at long range and other weapons are even less worth using OR vortex is completely trash at close range. Vortex does have dmg fall off by range cvars but the mappers would need to set these map by map based on how open their map is which would be a huge pain in the ass and would make maps configured by newer players without proper understanding complete railfests and unfun to play.

Changing vortex to have twice the fire rate but half the damage would ruin vortex's combo viability and make sniping damage more consistent but lower per shot. Receiving random shots from across the map isn't fun and currently if the first shot is missed as it's hard to predict where players are moving when they are not aware of you at all, surely it's possible to take cover within 1.5s. Sorry to put it in this way but your suggestion may sound good in your head but it'd completely change the current balance overall which would anger probably half of the current vanilla playerbase at least or require MASSIVE efforts to implement correctly making the suggestion bad in terms of actually having a balanced and fun balance. :S
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#6
It would ruin the comboing how it is, yes. But as it is now it's like do some damage with any weapon and finish off with 80dmg insta. So I think comboing in general wouldn't suffer greatly.
I would argue that it's easier to spot the sniper if he has to shoot more often and make you take a different approach.
Making the delay longer would anger the other half. xD

And adjusting the falloff damage for it per map is just bullshit as the weapon would be inconsistent which destroys the feel for it.
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#7
I tested and would like to propose this change:

Code:
g_balance_vortex_primary_refire 0.8
g_balance_vortex_primary_damage 50
g_balance_vortex_primary_force 300
g_balance_vortex_primary_ammo 8

DPS:  53.33 > 62.5
Force: 400 > 300
Ammo: 6 > 8 (3 shots per cell pickup instead of 5)

Makes it damage-wise more effective for a shorter time. And would make snipers search for ammo more often. It's also a bit more forgiving for newbies and a bit (25%) less pushy.
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#8
(03-14-2021, 08:30 AM)_para Wrote: I tested and would like to propose this change:

Code:
g_balance_vortex_primary_refire 0.8
g_balance_vortex_primary_damage 50
g_balance_vortex_primary_force 300
g_balance_vortex_primary_ammo 8

DPS:  53.33 > 62.5
Force: 400 > 300
Ammo: 6 > 8 (3 shots per cell pickup instead of 5)

Makes it damage-wise more effective for a shorter time. And would make snipers search for ammo more often. It's also a bit more forgiving for newbies and a bit (25%) less pushy.

This rail does not play well at higher levels. For people who can't aim and struggle hitting players with all weapons the balance barely matters unless there are weapons like electro which make hitting far easier and therefore give easy and effective DPS. At this level it's just the matter how easy a weapon is to use rather than what DPS and features it has. At higher levels where high ground and positioning render almost all weapons ineffective (except vortex & mg and severely cut devastator's DPS) a player who is just chilling in high ground in an open area will be inapproachable with these 300 force hits about every second. There's no way to get enough velocity between those to approach them unless it's just straight walking towards them when you're a sitting duck by moving like a bot. The ~60 DPS at unlimited range with that amount of "you can't come near me" just makes every capable point and click adventure player stupidly OP without a chance to counter them except with your own vortex/mg assuming that you can't surprise them while they are focused on someone else.

IMO Having weapons which are balanced at high level isn't the only important thing. But having more easy "no risk only reward" weapons for newbies to use without an incentive to learn to use other harder weapons isn't really going to encourage them to use weapons versatilely. Having weapons which are balanced at the high end and don't fail in trickle-down-balancing by becoming obselete or stupidly OP at the low end is the best scenario for balancing a skill based game.
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#9
(03-14-2021, 09:32 AM)Dr. Jaska Wrote:
(03-14-2021, 08:30 AM)_para Wrote: I tested and would like to propose this change:

Code:
g_balance_vortex_primary_refire 0.8
g_balance_vortex_primary_damage 50
g_balance_vortex_primary_force 300
g_balance_vortex_primary_ammo 8

DPS:  53.33 > 62.5
Force: 400 > 300
Ammo: 6 > 8 (3 shots per cell pickup instead of 5)

Makes it damage-wise more effective for a shorter time. And would make snipers search for ammo more often. It's also a bit more forgiving for newbies and a bit (25%) less pushy.

This rail does not play well at higher levels. For people who can't aim and struggle hitting players with all weapons the balance barely matters unless there are weapons like electro which make hitting far easier and therefore give easy and effective DPS. At this level it's just the matter how easy a weapon is to use rather than what DPS and features it has. At higher levels where high ground and positioning render almost all weapons ineffective (except vortex & mg and severely cut devastator's DPS) a player who is just chilling in high ground in an open area will be inapproachable with these 300 force hits about every second. There's no way to get enough velocity between those to approach them unless it's just straight walking towards them when you're a sitting duck by moving like a bot. The ~60 DPS at unlimited range with that amount of "you can't come near me" just makes every capable point and click adventure player stupidly OP without a chance to counter them except with your own vortex/mg assuming that you can't surprise them while they are focused on someone else.

IMO Having weapons which are balanced at high level isn't the only important thing. But having more easy "no risk only reward" weapons for newbies to use without an incentive to learn to use other harder weapons isn't really going to encourage them to use weapons versatilely. Having weapons which are balanced at the high end and don't fail in trickle-down-balancing by becoming obselete or stupidly OP at the low end is the best scenario for balancing a skill based game.

Hmm ok then how about lowering the force to like 100? Why even need such a pushback for this weapon? Also don't forget that you need to switch positions more often because you run out of ammo faster.
It's not only reward. I mean if you miss you effectively wait 1.6 seconds for 50 dmg. While it also consumed 16 cells (more than half an ammopickup)

Also the blaster is quite effective for disturbing snipers. They can't camp that easily and if they do they get knocked out of position. (thinking about improving the counter-weapons)

I mean I agree with you that the vortex is a bit too dominant. So what would be the change to make it still useful for how it's used while cutting apart the features that make it too powerful?

So why not start by listing the stuff it does, doesn't, should, shouldnt?

Features it has:
-killing someone that tries to escape for health reliably
-long distance

Features it should not have:
-camping in one spot (which can also be caused by bad map design)
-keeping enemies at distance

Strength:
-against everything in line of sight at medium to long range

Weakness:
-short range weapon
-explosives and blaster
-close range has better options

Maybe we could turn this into a discussion about a more general rebalancing of the game. Because if the vortex is too powerful it also means that the other weapons wre too weak in comparison.
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#10
Quote:Ammo: 6 > 8 (3 shots per cell pickup instead of 5)
Keep in mind that in CA, FT and LMS you spawn with 180 cells which means that someone could fire vortex for 22 shots while camping in a spot if they wanted to, with your higher ammo usage.

Quote:I mean I agree with you that the vortex is a bit too dominant. So what would be the change to make it still useful for how it's used while cutting apart the features that make it too powerful?
I already started the post with what I think is a good solution. My solution correlates with what you said what it should be able to do and what it should not be able to do except that I don't solve camping completely. I just reduce the rapid fire damage of vortex making it less effective at range and giving less of a reason for being far away as you can't deal as much damage anymore. Normally camping isn't a problem unless they are in a vantage spot where they can see everything(fuck railfest maps) or they are in a place where you also need to go and you don't have a teammate and need to solo push that vortex user. In modes with pickups camping isn't as big of a problem as there's a reason to move then. Being even at high medium range where mg is viable when tap fired would be a major boost to DPS as vortex would then charge when not held and it would encourage weapon variety.
I don't think other weapons are too weak, as I've said vortex is the best weapon at long range by far but projectile weapons by nature just can not be viable at a range. Too few hitscan weapons to have multiple long range viable ones and only having 1 makes it stick out so clearly. :>
Quote:Maybe we could turn this into a discussion about a more general rebalancing of the game.
yeees let's derail instead of creating new threads Smile
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#11
(03-14-2021, 12:43 PM)Dr. Jaska Wrote: [1]Keep in mind that in CA, FT and LMS you spawn with 180 cells which means that someone could fire vortex for 22 shots while camping in a spot if they wanted to, with your higher ammo usage.

[2]I already started the post with what I think is a good solution. My solution correlates with what you said what it should be able to do and what it should not be able to do except that I don't solve camping completely. I just reduce the rapid fire damage of vortex making it less effective at range and giving less of a reason for being far away as you can't deal as much damage anymore. Normally camping isn't a problem unless they are in a vantage spot where they can see everything(fuck railfest maps) or they are in a place where you also need to go and you don't have a teammate and need to solo push that vortex user. In modes with pickups camping isn't as big of a problem as there's a reason to move then. Being even at high medium range where mg is viable when tap fired would be a major boost to DPS as vortex would then charge when not held and it would encourage weapon variety.
I don't think other weapons are too weak, as I've said vortex is the best weapon at long range by far but projectile weapons by nature just can not be viable at a range. Too few hitscan weapons to have multiple long range viable ones and only having 1 makes it stick out so clearly. :>

[3]yeees let's derail instead of creating new threads Smile

[1] but then you've also got a nex to counter him while its easier to hit when you have to move

[2] yep ok i gotta admit that till now i kinda misread the first post ^^'
ehm i like that idea very much but i still think it should be able to shoot faster like:
0.8s@35dmg,100push,6ammo => 3s@80dmg,400push,8ammo
Adding the ammo variation because i think you should not waste too much ammo on a weak shot but also a strong shot would be worth it.
Or how about this:
[Discharged]0.8s@40dmg,100push,6ammo => [Charged]2s@60dmg,200push,6ammo
and if you hold the attack key you can super charge it for 1.5 additional seconds to [Supercharged]80dmg,400push,8ammo(or maybe even stronger after more time)
This makes it less powerful in combination but just as strong and a little more cumbersome for camping.

[3]well i know but in this case its kinda liked very tightly so...
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