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[SUGGESTION] Discrimination against HPBs

#1
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I love Xonotic. Not many people play Xonotic. I live in Australia. There is really only one active server in Australia, and it's all but deserted except for a few hours Friday/Saturday nights.

When I get a Xonotic craving or have time to kill, I look at the short list of usually 1-3 bright red servers in my list and commit to 200-400ms worth of pain for a fix. Against any half decent player I don't stand a chance obviously but generally put up with it for the sake of play. Sometimes I get rewarded with really great, highly challenging games. Lento is a great guy and sometimes is gracious enough to reverse roles but he's an exception to the rule.

Here's the problem: as a high ping bastard I feel like a second class player.

Example: This afternoon I joined the [Mon] Overkill server with 350 ping, because it was the only server in the entire fucking world which had anybody on at all. Straight away [Mon] lunatix tells me to go find another server because he's capping or some shit. Then he says "your ping sucks anyways". No sooner have I responded "you have got to be fucking kidding me" have I been kicked. The other guy there "Doink" with about 130 ping who was the one actually shooting at him, I didn't see kicked?

Couple of weeks ago, same story. I join some anonymous amatuer server with a half dozen noobs and 350 ping. I start to pwn said newbs and get told "your ping is too high, F.O" and get kicked. I tried to reconnect a couple times and get banned.

This kind of thing keeps happening to me constantly. For "some reason" I get kicked more frequently when I'm winning, with the excuse given that my ping is too high for their tastes.... well news flash: playing with 350 ping is pretty painful but shows some damn dedication to the game I think.

Way to foster a friendly international relationship in the community, guys. Like this game needs a great divide in it's player base on top of the existing sparsity of servers...

When people join the aussie server, most of us try to welcome a foreign friend rather than shove them off. Is this a cultural difference or something?

Here's the suggestion: why not build in a feature I believe already exists in some games - a server specified ping cap. Just plain take your server off the plate for those damned foreign HPBs with added benefit that you needn't waste your time being a prick kicking/banning them so they don't pester you again. Then hopefully one day nobody will be able to play anywhere and everybody will just stop playing. Mission accomplished!

/rant
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#2
:(

Sorry to hear that. although 350 ping would have been absolutely unplayable anyway.

The best way to solve this problem I think would be to distribute copies of the game to your fellow antichthones in Australia, help and grow the community there.

Some mods are going to have bad tempers and there's really nothing you can do about it.

I'll try to play on some AU servers more often. I only get around 220 ping on Osiris's. There are also some Japan servers that i get 150 on and i imagine you could get low ping on as well.
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#3
Thanks for sympthay. Actually I quite regularly play with 350 ping and sometimes don't do so bad. I consider it "weighted training". Takes a lot of getting used to and all weapons other than nex are usually 5-15%... Hence the enormous challenge. With 400 ping though, I emptied an entire MG clip at somebody close range and heard one single "doot" lawel.

I've tried proselytising Xonotic to everybody and anybody that will listen. Most aren't interested in breaking the skill ceiling or think that arena style shooters are "so 2000", and go play some BF3 or one of the thousands of zombie or 'realism' themed P.O.S's... Either that or generalise free games as low quality.

All are welcome on Osiris' server, you just have to time it right Smile
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#4
rcon2irc, Xonotic's admin toolset, has a plugin to auto-kick high pingers.
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#5
you're always welcome on my servers, flimmy flammy Smile

i'll keep playin' over there every so often too
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#6
Give the desk minsta/hook server a try, I've seen quite a lot of Australian players on with ~200 ping

If I recall I think I've actually seen you on as well.
[Image: 12766.png]
Sucks at weapons
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#7
If you ruin the game with warping, you get kicked.
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#8
Netcode really screws with the entire community, anything above 100ms feels differently, seeing a US player is quite rare. Maybe the client side thingy will improve the situation a bit. When it gets released...
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#9
Hey kammy, I do go there sometimes but minsta+hook isn't my preference and the servers usually pretty chockers when there's people on...
After this whinge the other day, we had an influx of HPBs on the aussie server. Welcome!
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#10
Well that sucks. The problem with high ping players is that others see them skipping around, and it's very difficult to tell their speed and predict their trajectory, making it difficult to hit them. This can potentially give them an advantage, to the extent that some people consider high ping a form of cheating.

I personally don't mind high ping players, and I certainly do not consider having an high ping cheating (I've been there - due to a crappy connection - and I know it gives you anything but an advantage). In Overkill we have some American friends which regularly play with ~150ms ping. 350ms though, that's a lot. But if you're fine with that, join us anytime. We're usually very friendly and I've never seen people kicked for reasons other than insulting other players or team fragging. Your case was probably an exception due to the fact that lunitix was playing speed capping and you may have been stealing his flag (shooting is less of a problem, since you can rarely hit). It's a public server so in my opinion he shouldn't have kicked you, but well, he's admin, his choice.

Unfortunately xonotic's players are mostly European, so there is no easy solution to your problem. On the bright side, as s1lence said, it's an opportunity to spread the word Smile . (You could also rent a server in Europe, install xonotic and connect to it from Australia. That would undoubtedly solve the ping problem Tongue )
[Image: 5132.png]
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#11
(01-13-2013, 07:23 AM)stdi Wrote: The problem with high ping players is that others see them skipping around, and it's very difficult to tell their speed and predict their trajectory, making it difficult to hit them. This can potentially give them an advantage, to the extent that some people consider high ping a form of cheating.

However bad things may look for someone else, the player with the very high ping is at far more of a disadvantage. They'll see everyone else moving in the same lagged way and whereas you could shoot at anyone else in the game OK, everyone will appear bad to them. Unless you're in 1v1 where things would be closer, they are at a far greater inconvenience.
I'm at least a reasonably tolerable person to be around - Narcopic
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#12
You have to remember tough, even if the situation for the HBP is worse then for the other server population, the HBP's situation affects one players, while him warping around and whatnot possibly affects the entire server population.

Speaking form personal experience (but its been a long time since i saw this, mind you) i known some "flag runners" that somehow coped with the terribad ping, warped around like mad but still manage to do amazing cap times. while this is a awesome skill level, it does totally fuck over the game for everyone else as this "warper" is essentially unhittable by anything but dumb luck or huge exploitation Wink By this im not saying its "a good thing" to kick ppl for high ping, but if one player's connection issues is screwing up the experience for 15 others, it is the right thing for a admin to do.

afar as the incident on overkill go, im preddy sure it was either a very untypical thing for lunatix (i have known him for a *long* time and i have a hard time beveling he would kick someone without explanation for no other apparent reason then their ping is bad) to do or above story is a bit to concatenated to give proper perspective to it (quite possibly both).

As mentioned the very best solution to this is the obvious one; work actively towards establishing and growing a healthy AU Xonotic community.
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#13
I understand completely why people would want you off if you are warping although two things: personally I think anybody who believes this is a form of cheating has not played high ping.
If you've never played with 350 pings, you should try it. Play your best and you will still feel like a noob. Read the points below and then consider usually the majority of my time in game is 300ms+.

Point two is my original point: Mr Bougo says it's possible to auto kick HPBs but it would be friendlier still to either give them a warning in the MOTD that they will be kicked, or to prevent them from joining in the first place, not wait until they're (potentially) enjoying themselves then inexplicably get confronted with a blank UI background screen.

IMHO the worst attributes of having around 350 are:

1) When entering a room, there is a noticable fraction-of-a-second delay until any models are drawn. I'm not sure exactly the timing but I'm guessing it's approximately the ping time, plus a little bit for data transfer? Given average human reaction time is about 200ms, 350ms means you don't even see what to aim at until 50ms after they've already shot you. This is lethal in minsta as you can enter a densely populated room and be shot at or at least aimed at before anybody is even drawn for you. Even 1v1, the strangest thing keeps happening: just as you click on somebody, YOU die, not them! And people say ping isn't such a disadvantage in minsta...

2) If you try to move fast, client prediction or no, you encounter a kind of "flickering/warping" and it becomes very difficult to tell exactly where you are. This is confounded by #1 - quite often bumping into other players at high speed or missing what should have been easy shots because the opponent was drawn late. In reality this is an illusion - you are moving normally and should simply ignore the flickering, but it's so distracting and confusing. Kudos to anybody who can get a good cap with that.

3) Being hit with any weapon that has a knock-back effect (worst are laser, mortar and rocket, but others such as hagar and machinegun have it bad too) effectively teleports you - your location and orientation are seemingly randomised from your perspective. If somebody hits you with successive shots, easy to do in close range, your view is so jumpy you literally cannot aim at them let alone hit them with anything.

4) For each additional player, all these effects become worse.

5) anecdote: I thought the MG was supposed to be scanning, but at close range I held the MG steady on somebody who was barely moving and emptied an entire clip. One.Single.Doot.....! FYI: you can expect to get about 1/10th your normal accuracy except with nex - with a little practice you can lose perhaps only 5-10% from your avg.

As I mentioned, I've had plenty of good duels with Lento where to survive I had to be extra smart and sneaky, very defensive and rely a lot on prediction, and a bit of luck. These matches are very challenging and some of the most enjoyable I've had. Having said that, there are some maps where I get steamrolled 30:0 but given the right kind of map, I've even won a few times which is a very pleasing reward.
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#14
I think on one of the loading screens there is very smart advice:
"you can't play this game with ping > 100"

That's how video gaming on the Internet works - players must have stable fast connection in order to make whole gaming worth something. If participants of game have bad connection, they ruin fun for everybody else, who's paying attention to problem and made sure that his connection is ok.

I hate playing with warpers in any kind of FPS game. FPS games are stressful enough already Big Grin
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#15
Read: http://sprunge.us/XZNH

I btw definetely think you should be allowed to play with high ping. A few months I used to play in the morning, and then the only active servers were in Aussieland, and I had a lot of fun playing there Smile

Imo players should never be kicked due to high pings.

Well, unless they do things like I saw someone do in Sauerbraten. He forced his ping to about 10000, and just went capping the flag. Because of the antilag he could perfectly move around and cap the flag, but it was practically impossible to shoot him because he was warping all over the place.

But well, that isn't even possible in Xonotic Big Grin
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#16
It's not right to blame developers for the behavior of some players. I know that a lot of players and developers here spend a lot of time to promote friendly behavior. Definitely do this:
Quote:The best way to solve this problem I think would be to distribute copies of the game to your fellow antichthones in Australia, help and grow the community there.

Quote:If participants of game have bad connection, they ruin fun for everybody else, who's paying attention to problem and made sure that his connection is ok.
Often it's not their fault that at this moment the connection is for some reason going to crap. Besides, there is a difference between a warper and a player with high or even medium ping, if there is no warp and stuff like that there should be no kicking, imo.
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#17
I don't get it, everybody is complaining about the lack of players on Xonotic servers, and then people think they need to kick some that are willing to play? I mean, seriously? I know high ping players can be harder to hit, but hey, they got the same disadvantage on their side with every weapon except perhaps nex. I consider the drawbacks of playing with a high ping far worse than playing against someone that has a high ping. So if someone faces the drawbacks of playing with a high ping, other players should rather respect that commitment instead of whining that this creates a little bit of inconvenience for them, too. I really fail to see any justification for complaints in this respect.
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#18
Quote:I don't get it, everybody is complaining about the lack of players on Xonotic servers, and then people think they need to kick some that are willing to play?
Because every HPB can annoy and frustrate up to 15 players on a 8v8 server. Many players actually want a smooth experience when playing online and get a proper internet connection, a fast pc for stable fps, a decent mouse and so on. And a HPB can ruin their online experience. I know I wouldn't play on a server with warpers..
To me, personally, it looks quite strange to play with all those drawbacks he lists anyway - doesn't sound like fun they way he describes it. And if you want a technical reason, the antilag netcode just doesn't work at those latency times.
Commitment? Try to build an Australian community if you think you are really committed to the game..
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#19
(01-15-2013, 06:47 AM)asyyy Wrote: Many players actually want a smooth experience when playing online and get a proper internet connection, a fast pc for stable fps, a decent mouse and so on. And a HPB can ruin their online experience.

Excuse me, to me that attitude sounds awfully ignorant and arrogant. Not everybody is capable of building up an infrastructure that allows for participation in publicly offered services at the same quality level. Because some people are capable of building up infrastructure, other, not so fortunate people should be excluded from utilizing publicly offered services? Same goes for the "build your own community" statement from you that comes from the country with probably one of, if not THE biggest national Xonotic player base worldwide.

Apologies, but I can't get comfortable with that attitude at all.
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#20
Jesus, we'll end up with "Xonotic is human right!" statement very soon and we'll invent new term "pingophobia" or "pingoscism" Big Grin
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#21
The great thing about Xonotic is that it is completely free. Everyone can set up a server, everyone can approach gaming forums/his social network/etc to gain new players and build a community. It IS possible. Also playing on privately hosted servers is not a right, it's a privilege. If that server admin in question sets up a rule that prohibits playing on an unstable connection (if it makes the other players noticeably suffer), then the server admin is free to do so. No one has the right to ruin the game for everyone else.. (people like OP who do that, that's what I call arrogant and ignorant!).
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#22
Ok, fair enough - to the extent you're arguing from a server admin's perspective, I agree. Whoever contributes to Xonotic by providing a server is of course free to set up whatever rules he deems appropriate for his own contribution, and I would not object to a maximum ping cap server side as an admin's decision.

From a player's perspective it still feels ... awkward to me to say the least that the players that have the privilege to be able to play at low ping are supposed to be the ones that require solidarity, the ones that need to be protected against those arrogant and ignorant players that don't have this privilege but dare to join the server nonetheless as they lack alternatives. My mind simply doesn't run this syntax, I'm afraid.
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#23
There is never a lack of alternatives, they could read a book or do something useful with their life. HPBs are just not supported by Xonotic's netcode and result in one or more people suffering, which shouldn't be the idea of playing a video game.
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#24
Quote:they could read a book or do something useful with their life
Oh what the hell, did i just really read that on an arena-FPS forum?

But nobody called him a warper, he could successfully play. The only thing people complained about was that he had "ping too high". Lot's of newbs do that when they see yellow color on the ping/lag counter. I was kicked once from Quake 3 because my ping was 80 (yellow). I don't know how things happened exactly, but by author's version it's seems that he simply encountered bunch of lame angry cunts, or couple of inexperienced admins. Or both.
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#25
(01-15-2013, 04:55 PM)asyyy Wrote: There is never a lack of alternatives, they could read a book or do something useful with their life. HPBs are just not supported by Xonotic's netcode and result in one or more people suffering, which shouldn't be the idea of playing a video game.

I propose genocide.
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