[SUGGESTION] Input from a fairly new player

I had thought to add this to the thread about making Instagib an offical game mode, but decided to make it it's own thread.

As I'm new to these forums, I'm going to go ahead and say I started playing FPSes back around Doom, Heretic, and Duke Nukem 3D, so I can't say anything from the viewpoint of someone who grew up on CS and CoD. I've only ever been a (extremely) casual player, but a number of years ago I ran across Nexuiz and played it some (mostly Minstagib, or whatever it was called), and now Xonotic some.

Since there seems to be some interest in how to draw players into the game and making Xonotic fun (for new players), I'm going to toss out a few thoughts I've had from just recently picking Xonotic up for the first time in years:

#### Gameplay ####
1) There are 13 different game modes. For the casual player, most probably won't even look at the "Create" tab of the Multiplayer screen to see that, but why are there so many game modes? Sure some are neat just-for-fun things (I seem to recall a big freezetag match can be quite fun), but from what I've read in the other thread it sounds like some of these modes are unlikely to be official, much less really supported by the devs. imo, if the devs aren't going to support it and no one is playing it, why not remove it (or just remove it from the list and require a console command to start up a match of that type). If nothing else, if a player decides to do some research prior to playing so they have some clue what they are doing, then there is that much less a new player feels they need to learn and understand. In some cases (like Freeze Tag), the game mode might be better served as a mutator for a match or something; Heck, that would be right up there with the old Paintball mode for Goldeneye for being a "nonviolent" option for those people who don't care too much for violence.

2) Can someone explain the weapons in Xonotic to me? Let's ignore the fact that most young gamers today probably never played Quake and might expect a realistic weapon selection and simply look at the weapon selection from the view of utility; From what I'm looking at, there are 3 rocket launcher things (Devastator, Electro, and Hagar (sorta)), 2 grenade launchers (electro alt-fire (i think), mortar), a machine gun, a couple of shotguns (crylink (a really weird but neat weapon), hagar alt-fire (again, sorta), shotgun (I must say, the alt-fire for the shotgun is nonobvious, but honestly that's the best melee attack I've ever had the pleasure of killing a digital person with), and a sniper rifle. The redundency should be obvious (at least how one could develop such an impression that there is redundency). Some of the weapon's uses aren't obvious (Who would think to smack someone with their shotgun? What are the chances a newbie is going to shoot his Electro as a pile of glowy balls on purpose, or think to do so? WTF is the Hagar and what the hell am I supposed to do with a crappy take on Duke Nukem 3D's Swarmer?), and so a player is left wondering what to do should they pick up something and have to try and make it useful. (Also note I'm not touching the weird weapons you find in modded servers or from mutators. Some things no sane man wishes to try to comprehend).

3) Some of the mechanics of Xonotic aren't exactly well-known anymore (bunny hoping should be somewhat familiar to new players; using a ramp to jump higher isn't exactly obvious), but maybe the Race gamemode and map(s) could be tweaked to give players some place to practice this in a nonthreatening, competative enviroment (like jump maps for TF2 Soldiers and Demomen, only without the explosions and 12 year olds whining into their mics).

#### Servers ####
Someone mentioned EU servers in the other thread and the lack of NA servers; yeah, this is a problem but when it comes to free-to-play games like TF2, DotA 2, ect. ect. ect. the playerbase ends up being lower class (income-wise) people who don't have the money to drop on the latest, flashy games some AAA company crapped out and is selling for a silly-high price. When it comes to hosting a server in the US, most residential ISPs won't allow a subscriber to host anything on their home network, so then you end up with people having to host off someone else's servers, and since no one seems to know about Xonotic (at least not enough to have a server with a playerbase), there is a Catch-22. The only solution is for someone to start up a server (or five) and start hosting games and hope people start to play.



I like Xonotic, but right now the only way for me to play the game is either on EU servers and their high ping (just looked at the server list. The nonempty, nonfull servers all have 170-190 ping for me) or against bots on my desktop. The bots would be fun if they didn't keep getting stuck in corners, stop walking about, or basically bug out and stop playing the game...

While a tutorial (the campaign?) is useful, maybe some ingame documentation on how the weapons work and some top-down views of the maps would be nice so a newbie could familiarize themselves with things before joining a match. Even something as simple as a .png file a player could look at (instead of trying to embed something like a document viewer or web browser in the game) would do the trick. At least then newbies might know to shoot the glowy balls with the glowy laserrocketthingy.

Also (and I'm sure this has been mentioned before) there is the option of putting Xonotic up on Steam (maybe). I know ToMe did this (a roguelike, but I don't know anything much beyond it is/was an F/OSS project that is now distributed via Steam), so maybe that might be worth a look if a broader playerbase is of interest. Heck, maybe the devs could sell Xonotic dirt cheap via Steam and fund some offical servers off of that.

Not sure how much of this is of value to anyone, but at least it's some info that might prove useful to someone.

That is some very valuable feedback, thank you for taking your time to write all that up!

As for game modes, sure, some are seldomly played but I think the majority of them is getting played regularly. Removing working game modes to reduce complexity doesn't seem to be reasonable nor required to me - it's not THAT many that people couldn't deal with them.

The weapons, I agree, they need explaining. As do the gameplay mechanics. Fortunately, there's the Newbie Corner doing just that. Of course it's cumbersome to check the web page for Newbie tips, and there are plans to introduce a sort of documentation that is accessible from within the game. Also a tutorial campaign is in conceptualization.

With regard to the NA player scene, hop on to IRC (#xonotic.pickup @quakenet) to meet fellow NA players.

Welcome to the forums!

I have to take care of a few things in real life these months so I may not be able to respond again soon, but I think you make some very good points worth discussing.

1) There are 13 different game modes. For the casual player, most probably won't even look at the "Create" tab of the Multiplayer screen to see that, but why are there so many game modes? Sure some are neat just-for-fun things (I seem to recall a big freezetag match can be quite fun), but from what I've read in the other thread it sounds like some of these modes are unlikely to be official, much less really supported by the devs. imo, if the devs aren't going to support it and no one is playing it, why not remove it (or just remove it from the list and require a console command to start up a match of that type). If nothing else, if a player decides to do some research prior to playing so they have some clue what they are doing, then there is that much less a new player feels they need to learn and understand. In some cases (like Freeze Tag), the game mode might be better served as a mutator for a match or something; Heck, that would be right up there with the old Paintball mode for Goldeneye for being a "nonviolent" option for those people who don't care too much for violence.

I like the fact that Xonotic has many modes, and even more so about the fact some modes are just silly. It's a community project, not a commercial product, i.e. it reflects the people behind it, fun, silly, and generous (to donate their time doing this).

I myself had been very confused about game modes too -- it took me a long time to understand that I had to connect to specific servers for some modes, as opposed to just starting a LAN party locally to play those modes just from the game menu.

I like the idea about freeze tag being a mutator rather than a separate mode; it's more intuitive, and it can even potentially work with other modes, e.g. CTF freezetag. However, having attempted to re-organize the menu and trying to add some features made me realize that if the menu structure is too different from the underlying code structure, the maintenance cost would be quite high. I can understand why it's not worth doing so for just one game mode. Hiding a game mode behind the command line is a bit extreme. If anything, perhaps we can just sort the game modes in the menu according to their popularity, and probably a pop-up.

I do hope to help create a better in-game help system, eventually (I have about 1.5 months per year to have more spare time). We need popups that actually explain things rather than list their variable names.

2) Can someone explain the weapons in Xonotic to me?
(Also note I'm not touching the weird weapons you find in modded servers or from mutators. Some things no sane man wishes to try to comprehend).

I actually enjoy those silly weapons. They are fun and amusing for a casual gamer like me.

Again, what we need is a better in-game help system, or some single-player tutorial to go over weapons. However, choosing the right weapons is part of the game play, so it's just part of the learning curve. Halogene's tutorial is an excellent read.

3) Some of the mechanics of Xonotic aren't exactly well-known anymore (bunny hoping should be somewhat familiar to new players; using a ramp to jump higher isn't exactly obvious), but maybe the Race gamemode and map(s) could be tweaked to give players some place to practice this in a nonthreatening, competative enviroment (like jump maps for TF2 Soldiers and Demomen, only without the explosions and 12 year olds whining into their mics).

I'd claim trick jumps are optional in most maps. I can't really do many trick jumps but I can still go places in most maps. Yes, better players always beat me, but that's precisely what makes Xonotic challenging and fun.

I can't do any Race myself. Most maps on the server require precise control and timing, and I'm just not that good in those department. I'm also not patient enough to master that set of skill (it's actually funny for me because I spend a lot of time practicing musical instruments). However, I'm very OK with it. There are plenty of players who enjoy it, and I'm happy that they are part of the Xonotic universe.

#### Servers ####
Someone mentioned EU servers in the other thread and the lack of NA servers; yeah, this is a problem but when it comes to free-to-play games like TF2, DotA 2, ect. ect. ect. the playerbase ends up being lower class (income-wise) people who don't have the money to drop on the latest, flashy games some AAA company crapped out and is selling for a silly-high price.

I never knew that free FPS games are mostly played by lower income players. Younger players who haven't entered the job market, perhaps?

I like Xonotic, but right now the only way for me to play the game is either on EU servers and their high ping (just looked at the server list. The nonempty, nonfull servers all have 170-190 ping for me) or against bots on my desktop. The bots would be fun if they didn't keep getting stuck in corners, stop walking about, or basically bug out and stop playing the game...

I see you found the NA player thread. As Halogene pointed out, the IRC is the way to meet and invite other gamers.

While a tutorial (the campaign?) is useful, maybe some ingame documentation on how the weapons work and some top-down views of the maps would be nice so a newbie could familiarize themselves with things before joining a match. Even something as simple as a .png file a player could look at (instead of trying to embed something like a document viewer or web browser in the game) would do the trick. At least then newbies might know to shoot the glowy balls with the glowy laserrocketthingy.

Again, I very much agree with you that we need an in-game tutorial/help/doc/gallery system.

On the other hand, I have also seen that people tend to stay around longer if they are connected to the community via the forum/IRC.

Also (and I'm sure this has been mentioned before) there is the option of putting Xonotic up on Steam (maybe). I know ToMe did this (a roguelike, but I don't know anything much beyond it is/was an F/OSS project that is now distributed via Steam), so maybe that might be worth a look if a broader playerbase is of interest. Heck, maybe the devs could sell Xonotic dirt cheap via Steam and fund some offical servers off of that.

I'm against charging players. I think we have enough servers and generous admins who are paying for the infrastructure. Players are what we need.

Steam discussion is not new. Basically we'd like Xonotic to be very mature before the grand opening. However, I think there's a balance to strike. If it takes another 5 years to reach maturity, will we have lost the best timing while new people still find games like Xonotic attractive?

Not sure how much of this is of value to anyone, but at least it's some info that might prove useful to someone.

It's excellent. Thank you for raising these questions.

I have to take care of a few things in real life these months so I may not be able to respond again soon, but I think you make some very good points worth discussing.

1) There are 13 different game modes. For the casual player, most probably won't even look at the "Create" tab of the Multiplayer screen to see that, but why are there so many game modes? Sure some are neat just-for-fun things (I seem to recall a big freezetag match can be quite fun), but from what I've read in the other thread it sounds like some of these modes are unlikely to be official, much less really supported by the devs. imo, if the devs aren't going to support it and no one is playing it, why not remove it (or just remove it from the list and require a console command to start up a match of that type). If nothing else, if a player decides to do some research prior to playing so they have some clue what they are doing, then there is that much less a new player feels they need to learn and understand. In some cases (like Freeze Tag), the game mode might be better served as a mutator for a match or something; Heck, that would be right up there with the old Paintball mode for Goldeneye for being a "nonviolent" option for those people who don't care too much for violence.

I like the fact that Xonotic has many modes, and even more so about the fact some modes are just silly. It's a community project, not a commercial product, i.e. it reflects the people behind it, fun, silly, and generous (to donate their time doing this).

Please note that I didn't just suggest removing modes; just hide some of them until they are more mature, or there is a playerbase for them.

I myself had been very confused about game modes too -- it took me a long time to understand that I had to connect to specific servers for some modes, as opposed to just starting a LAN party locally to play those modes just from the game menu.

The confusion is part of the problem, which is only compounded by the generally obfuscated server list. If you want new players, a lot of game modes is a good thing, but a lot of game modes coupled with no players is just weird, especially since it seems none of the servers support changing game modes via voting (or if that IS supported, it isn't an obvious feature).

I like the idea about freeze tag being a mutator rather than a separate mode; it's more intuitive, and it can even potentially work with other modes, e.g. CTF freezetag. However, having attempted to re-organize the menu and trying to add some features made me realize that if the menu structure is too different from the underlying code structure, the maintenance cost would be quite high. I can understand why it's not worth doing so for just one game mode. Hiding a game mode behind the command line is a bit extreme. If anything, perhaps we can just sort the game modes in the menu according to their popularity, and probably a pop-up.

I think I can understand there being an issue migrating a game mode to a mutator, but if moving things from one menu to another is a real problem (I havn't bothered reading either link, btw), then I'd say there is a huge problem with the codebase which is likely going to call for a reorganization and refactoring before anything else is done since I would see such a problem as a symptom of a much more dangerous problem: organic, unchecked growth.

I do hope to help create a better in-game help system, eventually (I have about 1.5 months per year to have more spare time). We need popups that actually explain things rather than list their variable names.

Documenation is always really far down on the list of things that people want to do, but is really high on the list of things that need to be done. Unless one stays with it from the start, going back and updating documentation is a pain. Personally, I'm not going to hold documentation sucking against anyone too much; everyone knows how important it is already (unless you are dealing with a really old school programmer, but even the sane ones from such a long time ago know how important it is for people to understand how things work).

2) Can someone explain the weapons in Xonotic to me?
(Also note I'm not touching the weird weapons you find in modded servers or from mutators. Some things no sane man wishes to try to comprehend).

I actually enjoy those silly weapons. They are fun and amusing for a casual gamer like me.

I played a lot of TF2. I vividly remember stalking Spycrabs across Dustbowl and pretending to be a naturalist. There is a difference between "fun and amusing" (the tuba), and just plan weird (Hagar, Electro (which, after seeing somoene else use it, I kind of get now)).

Again, what we need is a better in-game help system, or some single-player tutorial to go over weapons. However, choosing the right weapons is part of the game play, so it's just part of the learning curve. Halogene's tutorial is an excellent read.

A tutorial posted on a wiki in the repo for the game isn't exactly "good" documentation. While Halogene's tutorial is good, it's in a rather weird location. In this kind of situation, I'd almost suggest migrating to a system like what Funtoo (a linux distro) uses, which is simply to host everything in a wiki and forgo any other website. At least then there is a bit more uniformity to everything. Heck, in addition to that taking a Ruby-like approach to a mailing list would be nice (at least when I used it, Ruby's mailing list and forums were directly linked to one another so one could post to threads in both the mailing list and forum from the same place. It was a neat system).

3) Some of the mechanics of Xonotic aren't exactly well-known anymore (bunny hoping should be somewhat familiar to new players; using a ramp to jump higher isn't exactly obvious), but maybe the Race gamemode and map(s) could be tweaked to give players some place to practice this in a nonthreatening, competative enviroment (like jump maps for TF2 Soldiers and Demomen, only without the explosions and 12 year olds whining into their mics).

I'd claim trick jumps are optional in most maps. I can't really do many trick jumps but I can still go places in most maps. Yes, better players always beat me, but that's precisely what makes Xonotic challenging and fun.

I wouldn't call a ramp jump a trick jump. Yeah, making the jump from the top of the stairs in Afterslime to the Electro ledge is pretty hard, but the general concept is a very basic mechanic of the game; height is really valueable, especially given the number of AoE weapons in the game, and ramp jumps make getting that height so much easier (if, for no other reason, than it prevents you from having to switch to your blaster before taking off).

I can't do any Race myself. Most maps on the server require precise control and timing, and I'm just not that good in those department. I'm also not patient enough to master that set of skill (it's actually funny for me because I spend a lot of time practicing musical instruments). However, I'm very OK with it. There are plenty of players who enjoy it, and I'm happy that they are part of the Xonotic universe.

As I mentioned in another thread, I think Race maps could have a more promenent place in the map rotations. What I'd suggest would be a set of race maps that are geared towards newer players so they have some place to start working on their jumping. It wouldn't be a training map for a pro-level racer, but more of a training map, like jump maps for TF2.

#### Servers ####
Someone mentioned EU servers in the other thread and the lack of NA servers; yeah, this is a problem but when it comes to free-to-play games like TF2, DotA 2, ect. ect. ect. the playerbase ends up being lower class (income-wise) people who don't have the money to drop on the latest, flashy games some AAA company crapped out and is selling for a silly-high price.

I never knew that free FPS games are mostly played by lower income players. Younger players who haven't entered the job market, perhaps?

Younger players or those without a lot of income. I can't site any direct sources, but instead look at it from the perspective of what kind of players seem most prevalent. Do take my previous statement with a grain of salt, as I may be judging the group(s) i've seen by a minority that seems to make itself more known, so sorry if that is in error.

I like Xonotic, but right now the only way for me to play the game is either on EU servers and their high ping (just looked at the server list. The nonempty, nonfull servers all have 170-190 ping for me) or against bots on my desktop. The bots would be fun if they didn't keep getting stuck in corners, stop walking about, or basically bug out and stop playing the game...

I see you found the NA player thread. As Halogene pointed out, the IRC is the way to meet and invite other gamers.

IRC isn't a place to find games; the serverlist is where one goes to find games. Okay, maybe the community wants it the other way around, but from a new player's perspective, they aren't going to know about #xonotic.pickup, and they are unlikely to want to sit around waiting for a group to form to play a game. Personally, when I want to join a match I want to play now (I got back into Xonotic because I was looking for something to do to warmup for DotA, so waiting an hour or two for a 20 minute game is entirely pointless to me). IRC channels are great for social interactions, sharing info, ect. but it is just barely better than using a random number generator to find a server to connect to and play on.

/* snipped */
On the other hand, I have also seen that people tend to stay around longer if they are connected to the community via the forum/IRC.

Is that a function of the type of person who is likely to hang around IRC channels, or is that a function of someone finding the IRC channel?

Also (and I'm sure this has been mentioned before) there is the option of putting Xonotic up on Steam (maybe). I know ToMe did this (a roguelike, but I don't know anything much beyond it is/was an F/OSS project that is now distributed via Steam), so maybe that might be worth a look if a broader playerbase is of interest. Heck, maybe the devs could sell Xonotic dirt cheap via Steam and fund some offical servers off of that.

I'm against charging players. I think we have enough servers and generous admins who are paying for the infrastructure. Players are what we need.

It was just a suggestion. Posting somewhere (if Steam allows it) on the Steam page that the game can be gotten for free might work to advertise the game as well as maybe make the devs some money. I don't care either way. Like you said, we need players.

Steam discussion is not new. Basically we'd like Xonotic to be very mature before the grand opening. However, I think there's a balance to strike. If it takes another 5 years to reach maturity, will we have lost the best timing while new people still find games like Xonotic attractive?

I don't think the problem is finding Xonotic attractive. I think the gameplay is unique enough for today's gamer to find fun. Sure they are likely to get wrecked by someone with a decade of practice, but there is something satisfying about hitting that long-range minstagib shot and turning the top scorer into a bloody pulp that can make some game modes terribly fun. I think Xonotic is likely in about the best place it could be; there aren't too many games out there that have the old-school feel that Xonotic does. The only things I can think of that a new player might find useful (other than a useful tutorial and documentation) to get into the game would be more feedback on when they do well; If you only kill one person and it was Mr. 20 kill streak, then let the player know that and let them feel good about it (if such things are added, PLEASE give us an option to turn it off. Announcers can be terribly distracting).

Not sure how much of this is of value to anyone, but at least it's some info that might prove useful to someone.

It's excellent. Thank you for raising these questions.

Sometimes the only way to improve something is to get a mostly disinterested, unbiased opinion from someone. Good, bad, or ugly any feedback is useful if it gets someone to ask "What if?".

+1 On top down map views, maybe make those for loading screens like a bunch of newer games (such as Insurgency) do. It would probably be a good idea to have multiple pictures of a single map on the loading screens to give you an idea of their full layout (height, etc.)
+1 For weapon documentation, I know how these things act, but I've also been playing since Nexuiz 2.3. btw did you know that explosions splash through surfaces in this game?
+1 On movement mechanics, hardly any of the new crowd is familiar with old school shooters in general, let alone Quake, so crazy movement mechanics is completely alien to them

+1 On top down map views, maybe make those for loading screens like a bunch of newer games (such as Insurgency) do. It would probably be a good idea to have multiple pictures of a single map on the loading screens to give you an idea of their full layout (height, etc.)

I don't see that working for Xonotic. It works with games like Doom that don't have multiple levels, but for a game like Xonotic a top-down view of most maps is going to be nearly useless because of the layering problem. The only option there would be a rotating 3D model, and not only is that expensive system-wise, but it will, again, fail to show any real detail. If you want to make the loading screen more useful, a pretty picture with a little tip at the bottom would be far more useful.

You could also give the player early chat access so they can talk to others in the game while they are loading. A little info on the score, what people are saying to each other, and who is fragging who could be useful to someone just joining a map in progress.

/* snipped */btw did you know that explosions splash through surfaces in this game?

I read that somewhere (I think Halogen's tutorial), but it is certainly counter-intuitive. In fact, I don't understand why it works in the least and find it to be a rather curious effect. I can see a rifle shooting through a wall, but a rocket will either blow a hole in the wall (afaik, this game doesn't support destructable terrain), or will simply do damage in line of sight of the explosion.

+1 On movement mechanics, hardly any of the new crowd is familiar with old school shooters in general, let alone Quake, so crazy movement mechanics is completely alien to them

Newbies can be grateful that Xonotic simplified the movement mechanics at least. Quake-style bunny hopping took a lot of practice to get down; in Xonotic, you basically just need to hold jump and not turn real quick.

/* snipped */btw did you know that explosions splash through surfaces in this game?

I read that somewhere (I think Halogen's tutorial), but it is certainly counter-intuitive. In fact, I don't understand why it works in the least and find it to be a rather curious effect. I can see a rifle shooting through a wall, but a rocket will either blow a hole in the wall (afaik, this game doesn't support destructable terrain), or will simply do damage in line of sight of the explosion.

Yes, it indeed is weird from a realism perspective, but it has proven to provide enriching gameplay aspects. Fortunately, Xonotic doesn't aim at realism but at interesting gameplay. That's why I would definitively like to keep it :o)

+1 On top down map views, maybe make those for loading screens like a bunch of newer games (such as Insurgency) do. It would probably be a good idea to have multiple pictures of a single map on the loading screens to give you an idea of their full layout (height, etc.)

I don't see that working for Xonotic. It works with games like Doom that don't have multiple levels, but for a game like Xonotic a top-down view of most maps is going to be nearly useless because of the layering problem. The only option there would be a rotating 3D model, and not only is that expensive system-wise, but it will, again, fail to show any real detail. If you want to make the loading screen more useful, a pretty picture with a little tip at the bottom would be far more useful.

Better than nothing and it would be a good idea to use multiple pictures. In addition to top down, it would also be a good idea to have additional views showing the basic geometry of the map from the side, etc.

/btw did you know that explosions splash through surfaces in this game?

I read that somewhere (I think Halogen's tutorial), but it is certainly counter-intuitive. In fact, I don't understand why it works in the least and find it to be a rather curious effect. I can see a rifle shooting through a wall, but a rocket will either blow a hole in the wall (afaik, this game doesn't support destructable terrain), or will simply do damage in line of sight of the explosion.

This game wasn't built around realism and stripping the splash bleeding would be detrimental to the gameplay, as we learned a long time ago when someone experimented with the idea in Nexuiz. The only thing that makes this mechanic confusing is that there is no visual feedback demonstrating it to the player (something I posted about in this thread: http://forums.xonotic.org/showthread.php...ash+Damage).